File talk:Territories of Dynasties in China.gif

November 2010 Author's Resolution of Deletion Request: Promised Fix by Spring 2011

"As the creator of the file i feel that the map at its current state lso on improving the overall quality and accuracy of the map. However I will personally archive all related comments and create a completely new version of the file addressing raised concerns, including svg shaded region, a background raster image of a clearer and more accurate terrain map of the region. The source of these drawings are based on "History and Commercial Atlas of China" from 1935. I see that it will be appropriate to seek out further sources and, as the map is animated, print the source on each of the territorial map so as to provide different pov. I cannot get to work on these right away, but I'm looking at next spring to be the latest for the first upload of a revamped version." --Ian Kiu (talk) 22:31, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

It has now passed spring and we are in summer. Are you still intending to update the map or should someone else look to replace it? prat (talk) 16:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Yug and I have begun work on a replacement.
It would be great to have your contribution.
See WikiProject Maps Talk Page. prat (talk) 06:41, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Made this information a lil more prominent. =) — LlywelynII 06:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

We have given up. Seems we were both too busy. I can't believe this thing is still in use ... argh. prat (talk) 20:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Prior comments

Hi, I think those maps are not so accurate. There should be more spaces included. Especially, I am sure that in the Han period, the map should include those areas that are Xinjiang province now, since there are lots of evidences prove that. And for Tibet and other parts, those were always parts of China.

Hi, where did you get Ming dynasty for the year 1415? Gantuya eng 14:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey. I drew it based on this in the Ming article. Pojanji 18:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

OK. Interesting map of Yongle period. In your map, the Great Wall of China should be shown as an important attribute of the Chinese civilisation and histroy. Gantuya eng 05:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Why there is only 1892 map of Qing, before that time the Russian Empire took lots of places from China. You can see the map of Qing before 1892 . And there is no picture of ROC before 1949.--东北虎(Manchurian Tiger) 12:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

That's before the Treaty of Aigun in 1858, not 1892. -- ran (talk) 03:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

There should be such a Qing map of before 1858, since the Treaty of Nerchinsk (1689) then a map following the Treaty of Aigun (1858) and one following that of the Convention of Peking (1860), which would make it clearer. (unsigned) 20:27, 16 march 2010 (UTC)

Ming 1410

I believe this map is inaccurate in the extent of China's control over Vietnam in 1410. See also Image:Vietnam_Expand1.gif. In 1410, Vietnam was only about the top 30-40% of its current landmass. The map shows the Ming having conquered Vietnam all the way down to about Da Nang and Hue. It was not until Le Thanh Ton after the Ming were expelled that Vietnam went south of the Red River delta. The border did move back and forth before then, but neither Vietnam nor Champa was fully in control of the central region. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Please comment on this map before I insert it into the gif.

It's good for the Vietnam parts. I don't know anything about China's business with other countries. I think the no-man's land/fluid situation in central Vietnam is better reflected in teh new map. Thanks, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Missing

I note the changes made.

• Foreign Occupation by European States -
• Split between Nationalists and Communists in War.

--Keerllston 19:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thnaks! I'll follow up from that. Pojanji (talk) 07:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

POV Map

The map is marked as POV as the status of Kashmir is incorrectly determined. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Based on the contents of this talk page, that's not the only thing wrong with it. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 01:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Tibet?

I notice that this map does not include Tibet as an entity independent from China between 1892 and the invasion in 1950. Is there a reason for that?--Cdogsimmons (talk) 21:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

--Because Tibet wasn't independent. 24.86.114.99 (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It seems the real picture is both more complex, and far closer to relative Tibetan autonomy, see History_of_Tibet#Qing_control_reasserted. prat (talk) 17:02, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Rather, the Chinese like to think that. Bertport (talk) 19:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Tibet wasn't independent, it was a part of China the entire time, and Chinese sovereignty over Tibet was never disputed during this time period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.233.159 (talk) 17:45, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Countries do not normally invade themselves. At some point between 1892 and 1950 it had become a de facto indepdendent state. 67.188.230.128 (talk) 22:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

This map only shows 'Chinese' empires and not neighbouring empires. prat (talk) 19:51, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

South Tibet/Arunachal Pradesh - Aksai Chin

Aksai Chin was part of early Qing (before 1840) as part of Ladakh. It came out of late Qing control at the time of British Raj forming the Princely state of Kashmir and Jammu between 1820 and 1858. Then PRC seized it again in 1962. So between 1820/1858 and 1962 Aksai Chin was not part of Qing, and then ROC and then PRC. (unsigned) 20:14, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

South Tibet as part of Tibet before Simla Accord (1914) should thus be included in Yuan and Qing dynasties. (unsigned) 20:14, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Taiwan?

I think islands like Taiwan should also included in the map to show the development in history. 77.1.103.23 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC).

Korea

Korea is a part of Qing Dynasty (1892) until 1895, exercised same level of control like Tibet. Korea formally declared independence at 1897.--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 02:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Korea was independent entity that had their own sovereignty throughout its history, although Qing had intervened few times to the internal affairs. I am not sure about Tibet though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.104.189.18 (talk) 19:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Nope, he was right. "Intervening repeatedly in internal affairs" = puppet state. — LlywelynII 06:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Korea was temporary vassal state of Yuen Dynasty(file:Yuen Dynasty 1294 - Goryeo as vassal.png) in 1270 ~ 1356. From 1356, Korean dynasties was totally independent from china except only one thing: the permission for ascending the throne. However, this permission was nothing but formality. After Korean king's ascending, they obtained expost facto approval. ØSalamander (Talk / Contributions) 08:29, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Annam Concerns

Should Annam be considered "Chinese" by any means in 560 & 923, since the Anterior Ly Dynasty and factions of Trieu Viet Vuong's army ruled Annam (arguably) from 544 to 602 and Annam was under local Viet control in the late 800s to early 900s? Manofedit2 (talk) 18:47, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

According to History of Vietnam, 560 was during the Early Lý Dynasty (544–602) - ie: Vietnamese consider this their founding period - and 923 was during 'Early independence'. Therefore neither date should be shown as under Chinese control. prat (talk) 19:55, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

General Concerns

This is a very interesting image, however I am very concerned about the file for the following reasons.

• It does not carry appropriate warnings about the approximate and rough nature of its content
• It is highly politically charged
• It is now being used across many different language Wikis, and individual pages
• The source files for producing the map have not been shared with the community
• There are a large number of known errors
• Neither sources nor methodology are being cited

I would ask that the creator of the image share the source files publicly, rename the image to an appropriate name to emphasise the 'approximate' nature of the animation, and provide sources and/or methodology used at the earliest possible opportunity. prat (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Yunnan Concerns

Only small parts of Yunnan were controlled by Chinese even during the Yuan dynasty. Significant areas were only subsumed by China around the turn of the 20th century, for instance Xishuangbanna, though limited areas had previously paid tribute, they had also paid tribute to many other polities to the west and south. For primary source material, see On horseback through Indochina by Otto. E. Ehlers, where he describes how by chance a Chinese tribute gathering mission was on their annual trip to Jinghong for tribute during his 1890s visit. They barred him from crossing the Mekong, considering that he was an unathorised alien and that crossing the Mekong constituted entering Chinese territory. The only eastern Xishuangbanna site I am aware of with any earlier evidence of Chinese activity is the tiny town of Yiwu, which was a tiny outpost. prat (talk) 20:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

A second source would be Professor James C. Scott of Yale's 2009 book The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia. prat (talk) 20:25, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Guizhou Concerns

Guizhou was not under Chinese control until as late as the Ming dynasty. "It was not until the Ming dynasty that it came under heavy Chinese settlement and domination during which it was made a province. This prompted mass migration from Sichuan, Hunan and its surrounding provinces into Guizhou. The Miao revolted several times against Ming during the Miao Rebellions (Ming Dynasty)." This is widely known in academia, and there are more detailed maps available. Your simplifcation implies false Chinese dominance of these areas and should be amended ASAP. prat (talk) 20:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Deletion Request

Please read my comments where this file is being nominated for deletion. Pojanji (talk) 03:04, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Speed

Even before I was aware of the specific complaints people have made of the map's accuracy, I noticed that its speed of transition is so fast that it's difficult to process the specific borders of the different entities and dynasties shown, before the map jumps to the next one. Maps are not designed to be studied for a split second. In some cases where there are multiple states shown, it is difficult even to just read all the names before the map switches to the next time period. Because this uses very old animated GIF technology, there's no way to pause the map on one time period, or for a user of Wikipedia to quickly see an index of what all the different boundaries were at different times. As such, even if the map was itself perfectly accurate, someone who tried to rely on it for an understanding of changing Chinese borders over time, could become easily confused by the data presented in this way, and draw misleading conclusions from it. This together with the POV nature of the map itself, makes it an inappropriate image for Wikipedia. Quickly animated GIFs should not be used for such serious purposes. At the very least, it is necessary that a reference file is available to users of Wikipedia so they can see the different stages of the map as individual images. It is hard even to be specific about some of the faults of the map unless one goes through and hits print screen on every image first. There must be another format besides animated GIF which would allow the data to be presented as an animation while solving these issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.84.48 (talk) 08:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

You can pause the animation in any casual browser when hitting the Escape-Button (in the upper left corner of your keyboard). At least in Firefox you can restart the animation from that point where it has been stopped by pressing F5 (the shortcut for refreshing the page). But I agree that the animation speed is too damn high. There should be at least five seconds between to different images. 129.247.247.239 (talk) 13:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Items the Map Could Do With

It's missing the Xia or Huaxia dynasty, the Shang dynasty, Wang Mang's Xin Dynasty in between the Eastern and Western Han (and it should probably have two separate Han dynasty maps and maybe a map of the rebel forces encroaching on Wang Mang's collapsing empire); the rebel peasant leader Li Zicheng's brief Shun Dynasty and pre-Qing Manchu Empire eating away the borders of a collapsing Ming dynasty; a map with pro-Ming Koxinga's pirate Kingdom of Tungning on Taiwan and the appropriate early Manchu borders in mainland China post-Ming; a map showing the Manchu empire and its stake in Taiwan during the Revolt of the Three Feudatories;a map showing the height of the Manchu empire (including Taiwan), before major territories were lost to Russia; a map showing the Heavenly Kingdom of Taiping and European spheres of influence and colonies (Hong Kong, possibly Macau) and sovereign leases (Kiatschou for example) on the mainland in the 19th Century; maybe a few maps of the Republic of China and warlord fiefs; at least one map showing the Republic of China, the Chinese Communist Party, warlords, and Manchukuo; maybe a map showing Japanese-occupied territories in China during WWII; maybe a map showing Soviet-occupied Manchuria, Kuomintang territories after the war (including Taiwan), and the Communist Chinese somewhere between 1946 and 1948; maybe a map showing China being overrun by Communists and the Kuomintang retreating; a map of China or Chinas within 1949; a map showing Chinas in 1950, after Tibet was overrun (Tibet was undeniably not part of Communist China prior to 1950, but can possibly be argued to have been a Republic of China vassal between 1912 and 1950 if the Republic is considered a legal continuation of the Qing Dynasty between; alternatively, Tibet can be shown as independent during this period); the PRC and ROC China today, showing the relatively recently occupied South China Sea Islands and any static changes to the Himalayan border between 1950 and now.

This is fair a bit and would take substantial effort and maybe some academic assistance, and probably doesn't include everything. These changes would probably work best with a slideshow whose speed can be adjusted.

Taiwan should probably not be shown prior to Koxinga because it really had nothing to do with China before him except as just an island near the Chinese mainland that Chinese people had known about for thousands of years and never really administered. Even as a base for Chinese and Japanese pirates and Dutch colony before Koxinga, it seems to me hard to say that it was then Chinese. If there are enough maps, it might be possible to show the gradual colonization of the island beyond just the settlement in the Southwest.Nanib (talk) 01:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Politics

Please do not allow politics to get in the way of the map. Just using reason, the legal claims of past and current entities should be ignored and the maps should show actual control of historical powers, while mentioning disputed territories where appropriate or where well documented (especially as in modern times).

Republic of China (1911 - 1949) is missing

Between Qing Dynasty and modern China (PRC), there is a country called Republic of China (ROC, today commonly known as Taiwan).
Before 1946 it governed mainland CHINA and Hainan, but now Taiwan. In 1946 Taiwan became one of its provinces. After the civil war, it lost most its territories, with only Taiwan and peripheral islands remained.
Republic of China is a very important period in Chinese history. You should not have missed that.
I am a Chinese and I am more familiar to the history of my homeland.

Chen9007 (talk) 08:11, 16 January 2014 (UTC)