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Talk:Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections

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A reason we have so many attacks at this article

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...especially the section Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections#Non-U.S. intelligence

The following article by Taibbi contains a long list of the conspiracy theorists (and their unreliable sources) who oppose the narrative told by all the reliable sources behind this and other articles. Those who believe him and those on his list create a lot of disruption in our articles regarding the proven Russian interference. They are all very unreliable sources, so don't try to use this as a source here. Stuff like this is why we keep getting misinformed people here who complain:

This is just for the curious who want to learn more about what the fringe is saying. Their tell is that they call it "Russiagate", as if all the accusations about the interference by Russia, and Trump's cooperation with that interference, are a false conspiracy theory. They are pushing Russian/Trump/GOP disinformation. They are more concerned with Russia's reputation than with the concerns raised when multiple allied intelligence agencies discovered by chance the many suspicious communications between Trump's people and Russian intelligence agents. Instead of being suspicious of the cooperation and communication between Trump's campaign and Russian intelligence agents, Taibbi and his list defend them.

So learn the names of these conspiracy theorists and their unreliable sources. Most of the time they are not published by RS, and most of the time they should be deleted on sight:

These were all listed by Taibbi, and most of them are familiar to those who notice what the fringes say. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you understand how this comment might go a long way towards undermining trust in wikipedia? I know not many people go to talk pages and perhaps those who do already have firmly established priors that won't be budged. Bongino, Bartiromo, Patel, and Solomon would never say a bad word about one side or a good thing about the other. I have no problem with warning Wikipedians to not rely on anything they say that is consequential to this page. From a brief look at Larry Johnson's page he should probably go in that pile too. A few others are mixed. I don't wish ill on Trump but I wish he would go away and never run for office again. Would you be willing to give me an honest answer to this question? I don't think these 3 are without flaws that cloud their judgement. But if you were to just stack up Greenwald, Taibbi, and Maté's track record of getting the basic shape of this investigation correct against our biggest newspapers and non-fox networks who would you say has been closer to the things we think we know now? (I'm not giving Fox any credit for not being on that list. They would never be honest about any substantive Trump flaw).
Do you think what I'm saying is unreasonable? I'm not saying I have any more insight on this topic than anyone else. Is it unreasonable of me to find the following two quotes inappropriate: "learn the names of these conspiracy theorists and their unreliable sources" and "most of the time they should be deleted on sight."? And I'm not talking about the minutiae, I'll grant you that there are rules to posting on Wikipedia that would preclude them from being RS's. But can you see how the spirit of those two quotes would make even someone who isn't at all rooting for the electoral success of Trump to be much more skeptical than before of this sight?
Sorry it got so long and I mean no disrespect. Groteth (talk) 06:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Greenwald, Taibbi, and Maté" and Solomon are behind much of the disinformation we're seeing. They went down the Giuliani rabbit hole and believed the Russian disinfo he got from Russian agents in Ukraine. That was a Trump operation to create fake news that would move blame from Trump to Biden, and it failed (at least with RS and here), but there are still people who believe it. I used to be a fan of Taibbi and Greenwald (and Giuliani), but when they abandoned good journalistic practices (and suffered the consequences), it was a sad day. Once the conspiracy theory mindset is well-established, all is lost.
We delete unreliable sources when they are used, and that's basically what this thread is about. That's what misinforms those who complain here. That's all. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 07:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would want to know what they're being used as sources for, as I think "Barry the dancing hamster" would be a reliable source for a quote from Barry then dancing hamster. Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, WP:ABOUTSELF still governs how we can cite them in their own articles here, and if published by a RS, we might consider whether to cite them in other articles, all while keeping in mind not to give undue weight to fringe and deceptive opinions. Our remit here is to document the sum of all human knowledge, and that includes documenting falsehoods, conspiracy theories, propaganda, and other nonsense.
The only legitimate way we can do that is by citing RS when they mention the nonsense, and that happens all the time. That enables us to determine due weight and include the framing from RS, which will usually be citing nonsense in the context of criticizing, debunking, and deconstructing it. We then include the POV of the RS, which has more due weight than the nonsense they are discussing.
Nonsense and lies should always be framed and identified as such by using descriptive words like pseudoscience, falsehood, etc. We are not purveyors of nonsense. We do not leave it up to the reader to determine what is true or false. We let RS do that by citing how RS describe it. When there is a disagreement between RS, we do not take sides, but when there is a disagreement between RS and fringe sources, we side with RS, because all of our content is based on RS. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:27, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Greenwall was proven right by Snowden, not a conspiracy-guy. And Russiagate was a three year long hysteria. Why are you undermining Wikipedia? 2001:2020:4337:9324:5A4:9030:D23B:234B (talk) 11:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Valjean, you're the conspiracy theorist here, you're just too egotistical to see that. The Russian Interference theory is not proven, just as the 2020 election theft theory is not proven, if it were, Trump would have been charged. Why are you, an obvious conspiracy theorist, labeling others conspiracy theorists for not believing in a conspiracy theory? Do you not see how moronic and contradicting that is? 24.121.228.241 (talk) 15:35, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think people need to read wp:agf and wp:npa. Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why does Wikipedia label the 2020 election theft conspiracy theory as a conspiracy theory, but not the 2016 Collusion?

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Face it. They're both just conspiracy theories. Stop treating one as fact and the other as fiction. I hate how each side flaunts the same conspiracy theory but acts like it's not a conspiracy theory just because it fits their narrative. When a source doesn't fit a person's narrative, they label it an unreliable source, when a source does fit their narrative, they label it a reliable source, despite the characteristics of said sources being the same 24.121.228.241 (talk) 15:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because foreign interference in the 2016 election is a fact and a stolen 2020 election is fiction. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not. Neither is fact. If Russiagate were, there would've been sufficient evidence to charge Trump, and even this page acknowledges that there wasn't. 24.121.228.241 (talk) 15:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
THis is about Russian interference, there is evidence of that. What there is not evidence for is Trump knowingly asking them to do it. Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your mistaking foreign interference for collusion is unfortunate, but not our problem. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you choose to separate the Interference from Trump. That's fine, as long as you accept the ridiculous nature of the collusion c 24.121.228.241 (talk) 16:19, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where do we say there was collusion? Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IP24.121.228.241, more accurately, where do we say there was "conspiracy"? There was plenty of cooperation, also known as collusion, but Mueller was unable to prove "conspiracy" and "coordination". These are specific terms used in investigations, so we should be careful. Mueller's investigation was a limited, not very thorough, and strictly criminal investigation, so non-criminal, even treasonous, collusion was of little interest to him, and he said so. He specifically addressed collusion and how he did not treat it the same as conspiracy. See Mueller report#Conspiracy or coordination vs collusion.
The Senate Intelligence Committee report, which dwarfs the Mueller investigation in size and thoroughness, was a counterintelligence investigation, and it found plenty of very worrying open and secret cooperation between the Trump campaign and the Russians. Read Links between Trump associates and Russian officials#2015–2016 foreign surveillance of Russian targets.
On August 16, 2018, former CIA Director John Brennan stated that Trump's claims of no collusion with Russia were "hogwash":

The only questions that remain are whether the collusion that took place constituted criminally liable conspiracy, whether obstruction of justice occurred to cover up any collusion or conspiracy, and how many members of 'Trump Incorporated' attempted to defraud the government by laundering and concealing the movement of money into their pockets.[1]

Trump and Barr claimed that Mueller exonerated Trump and that there was "no collusion", but that was false:

As Mueller made clear in the public statement he offered Wednesday — his first of substance since being appointed as special counsel — Trump’s summary was not an accurate one. The special counsel’s report explicitly rejected analysis of “collusion,” a vague term that lacks a legal meaning. Instead of a lack of “collusion” between Trump’s campaign and Russia, Mueller said that “there was insufficient evidence to charge a broader conspiracy."[2]

So words mean something. Be careful and be specific. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:16, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]


References

  1. ^ Brennan, John O. (August 16, 2018). "Opinion – John Brennan: President Trump's Claims of No Collusion Are Hogwash". The New York Times. Retrieved August 18, 2018.
  2. ^ Bump, Philip (May 29, 2019). "Trump's mantra was once 'no collusion, no obstruction.' It isn't anymore". The Washington Post. Retrieved September 29, 2024.

reverted edit

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@Largely Legible Layman To quote the reference tag of the source I was talking about: ""Trump: Russia remarks on Clinton emails were sarcasm". BBC News. July 28, 2016." Anotherperson123 (talk) 23:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That source is there to support: he replied that he had been speaking sarcastically. Which he promptly undermined by tweeting: If Russia or any other country or person has Hillary Clinton's 33,000 illegally deleted emails, perhaps they should share them with the FBI! All of this is quite clear in the article's organization, so your edit seems to hinge on some sort of misunderstanding. Could you explain your reasoning further? And could more senior and knowledgeable editors than myself weigh in? @Soibangla @Valjean @Superb Owl
Largely Legible Layman (talk) 00:29, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2024

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Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections#Dismissal of FBI Director James Comey:

During a meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak on May 10, 2017...

This is the same event, can you please add a hyperlink? —— Cbls1911 (talk) 19:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Hyphenation Expert (talk) 21:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Grateful. —— Cbls1911 (talk) 00:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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