Talk:Benicio del Toro

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2017

Change the blank in the Last Jedi column to Jar Jar Binks Steve12345678910111213141516171819 (talk) 20:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

References

Not done: I searched Buzzfeed, and they're reporting that while del Toro will be in the film, "It has not been confirmed what roles the two actors [Benicio Del Toro and Laura Dern] will play in the film."[1] —C.Fred (talk) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Name spelling

This is the only online resource I can find that spells the first part of his surname "del" lower-case. Every other website including recognized authorities such as TCM (linked by this article) use upper-case. EDIT: This same correction has been flagged by other users as recently as Oct. 7, 2017, but the discussion was archived without resolution. So I'm restating it here so someone can make the correction. 96.51.188.175 (talk) 02:20, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

According to orthographic conventions in Spanish, if you write only the surname, "Del or De" must be upper-case, but if "del or de" is preceded by the name, it must be in lower-case.--Belagaile (talk) 13:55, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Nationality?

As I've seen that Benicio Del Toro doesn't seem Puerto Rican to me. Talking about general nationality. I believe that we can change it to American. Since he grew up in the States. And if talking about between these two options. He is american. By personality. I believe we can change that. And it will be right. Samuel Malik (talk) 00:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

@Samuel Malik: Do you have reliable sources to cite that say that, rather than relying on general perceptions? —C.Fred (talk) 00:54, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Again, you have not provided sources to say he is more "generic American" than Puerto Rican. IMO, if articles identify subjects as English or Scottish rather than calling them all British, there's no reason not to use Puerto Rican here. —C.Fred (talk) 15:26, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

@C.Fred like I said I don't have those. But tell me. How do you know he is Puerto Rican? You want to explain that? Samuel Malik (talk) 16:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

@Samuel Malik: Well, there are the sources that state he was born there. That's pretty obvious.

I have contacted WikiProject Puerto Rico for assistance with this. —C.Fred (talk) 20:25, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Hello. Im jack. My parents are from Puerto Rico. And I believe that there's nothing wrong with Mr del toro being american besides Birthplace does not define your nationality. As we know. There will be Puerto Ricans. Wanting him to be one of them. I believe that him being American will make more sense. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 00:09, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Wrong! Lt me explain the legality of this:

Application Form for Certificate of Puerto Rican Citizenship

I would like to express my humble opinion on the issue. I believe that the correct term that should be used to describe the nationality of a person born in Puerto Rico even under the American flag should be "Puerto Rican". This is taking into consideration that there is a "Puerto Rican citizenship". According to the article which is well referenced "Puerto Rican citizenship was first legislated by the United States Congress in Article 7 of the Foraker Act of 1900 and later recognized in the Constitution of Puerto Rico. Puerto Rican citizenship existed before the U.S. takeover of the islands of Puerto Rico and continued afterwards. Its affirmative standing was also recognized before and after the creation of the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico in 1952. Puerto Rican citizenship was recognized by the United States Congress in the early twentieth century and continues unchanged after the creation of the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.

Another thing that must be taken into consideration is that the "American Citizenship" which was "granted" to the native Puerto Ricans is a limited citizenship which can be revoked at anytime. This is due to the fact that in order for that "citizenship" to be permanent an amendment to the U.S. Constitution has to be made. That means that every native born Puerto Rican does not have a true and complete American citizenship, but does have a Puerto Rican Citizenship, therefore the answer to the question in regard to the nationality of a person born in Puerto Rico, if he or she is an American or a Puerto Rican, should be in my opinion "Puerto Rican". Tony the Marine (talk) 00:38, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Jack et al. Let me express my opinion as well. The WikiProject Puerto Rico has, by consensus and by sharing reliable sources and intelligent analysis, found that the correct way to handle the nationality of person born in Puerto Rico is to say their nationality is Puerto Rican. Thank you.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 02:33, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I believe this is leading quietly to racism. It's not nativity which defines you in the modern world. It's talking about personal nationality. A person raised in the States under the age 17 can be considered full American. He is in hollywood which is American. And so to speak if talking about his personality he is as American as it gets. I believe Mr. Garcia here understands. Jack Garcia. Can you explain your thoughts on the last opinion? Samuel Malik (talk) 02:46, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

He has Spanish citizenship now. Spanish-from Spain.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 02:51, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

If talking about my personal opinion. I believe I will side with samuel here because you see. (Personaly) I believe I am American even though I am foreign born. I love America. I consider it My homeland despite my descent. If I do a job in this country. I am doing as an American citizen. I believe everyone should be considered American. Not partial or other. I don't think a person agreed on being of such descent as his nationality defines him. I think Benicio del Toro should be considered American. If talking generally. And if you don't like what I mentioned? I apologise. Thank you. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 02:57, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

This in not about what you like or do not like. Wikipedia is not like this. This is about what is. This is not about racism, because let me tell you if you are born in Puerto Rico you are "Puerto Rican". If you are born in Russia, you are Russian even if you eventually end up with an American citizenship in which case you become a Russian-American. Did you read what I wrote? Whomever is born in Puerto Rico has Puerto Rican citizenship and even though they have an American citizenship with limitations that can be taken away at anytime. I'll tell you what. Let's compromise in this case and just state that he is a Puerto Rican-American. Tony the Marine (talk) 03:34, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree. Puerto Rican-American is okay. Well anyway this whole birthplace thing doesn't really matter. Know this. I was also foreign born. But since both of my parents are American I am too. And toni. It's his choice if he is American. You can't call him Puerto Rican. You should know about birthplace. And if it's us being American. We are no native Americans. We are travellers. Who found the land. So we are no different than Garcia. Samuel Malik (talk) 19:44, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

As of 2011 he has Spanish citizenship. (Spanish-from Spain). Please see the sources in the infobox. Perhaps his nationality, since it's so complicated, should be left out of lead and left out of the short description. Or include in the lead that he has Spanish citizenship now. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 20:43, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Benicio del Toro is Puerto Rican, and all 3 references in his article (text, infobox and short description) should note it as such. This is a rather complex subject; I will try to be short.

What happens is that editors tend to confuse nationality with citizenship. There is a reason why the infobox of biography articles (such as Benicio del Toro's) state "nationality" and not "citizenship" in the base set of template parameters: When a reader gets to a biographical article, he doesn't usually care what's the citizenship of the subject, i.e., what his passport states which government will, for example, come to his rescue should he get stranded in a foreign country. What readers usually want to know is where the person is from, and that generally means only one thing: where he was born. Take Albert Einstein, for example. Even though Einstein came to the US and developed the atomic bomb in the US, that didn't make his nationality American. In fact, he even became an American citizen. Yet, no knowledgeable editor would dare say Einstein was an American. A change of citizenship, doesn't change someone's nationality. Since he was born in Germany, the text of his article states he was German. Note that Einstein became a US citizen but American citizenship didn't turn his German nationality into American nationality. His nationality continued to be German, and he and his nationality were German until the day he died. That said, based on Tony's very eloquent explanation above, it is obvious that Benicio del Toro's citizenship is both American citizenship and Puerto Rican citizenship. While you cannot have more than one nationality, you can have more than one citizenship (American, Puerto Rican, Spanish, etc), one for every government that bestows it on you.

Now, what was changed in Del Toro's bio wasn't his citizenship, but his nationality, so the question becomes, what is his nationality? Is it American or is it Puerto Rican? Again, because he was born in Puerto Rico his nationality is Puerto Rican, not American.

So why did Samuel change his nationality from Puerto Rican to American? What happens is that editors like Samuel make the mistake of defining nationality politically, in the same way they define citizenship, politically. Let me explain. It helps to keep in mind that Puerto Rico is not a sovereign state. If we were talking about someone born in a sovereign state like, say, Cuba, but who then migrated to the US, (like, say, Celia Cruz) the person's nationality is, unarguably, Cuban, not American. Again, this is a case just like Einstein who came from Germany, a sovereign country. Almost no one would argue that Celia Cruz is of Cuban nationality. What confuses uninformed editors regarding the nationality of someone like Benicio del Toro is that he was born, not in a sovereign state but in a territory that belongs to a sovereign state (the United States). To make it more complicated yet, the territory in question (Puerto Rico) while belonging to that sovereign state is not a part of that sovereign state. These are all details that confuse editors who fail to keep their feet grounded on the simple definitions of citizenship and nationality.

Since PR belongs to the US but isn't part of the US, the case of Puerto Rico confuses editors who fail to remember that nationality and citizenship aren't the same thing. In an attempt to formulate the nationality of people born in Puerto Rico, many editors mistakenly focus on the political aspect of the relationship between the US and PR, thus concluding (mistakenly) that the nationality of Puerto Ricans is American "because --so their reasoning goes-- since Puerto Rico belongs to the US, and since Puerto Ricans are American citizens, then the nationality of Puerto Ricans must be Americans." The logic is 100% faulty as it is based on their own definition of nationality (note the political basis of their definition), and not on what people most often associate with nationality which is place of birth, geographically (and, thus, culturally), and not politically. Nationality (unlike citizenship) has absolutely nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with geography, place of birth, and, by consequence, with the culture into which the person was born. Note that, because you cannot be born in two places, you can have only one nationality. However, because citizenship is something legislated by governments, you can have more than one citizenship, as many as there are governments that will bestow theirs on you (Spanish, or what have you, it's irrelevant - readers are looking for nationality, not citizenship).

That someone changed the nationality of Benicio del Toro doesn't surprise me. Puerto Rican bio articles are under attack constantly by editors who, though well-intended, are ignorant of the difference between the two terms and who couple that with applying the erroneous political reasoning above in deciding on nationality of someone born in Puerto Rico. Curiously, in my travels trough WP, I have also found another interesting behavior in a rather large number of editors: If the subject born in Puerto Rico is famous (say, actors/actresses, sportspeople, millionaires, etc.), editors appear quite willing to "claim" them as Americans in nationality. However, if the subject is infamous (criminals, outlaws, murderers, felons, rapists, drug traffickers, etc.), (Tono Bicicleta, Lolita Lebron, Correa Cotto, Albizu Campos, just to name a few, come to mind) then no American editor races to put up a fight to have their article prominently display his/her American nationality and, in fact, such editors even revert someone who dares write that such infamous people (all born under the American flag) were Americans. Why is this?

In summary, Benicio del Toro, and everyone else born in Puerto Rico, is of Puerto Rican nationality only, as well as of dual Puerto Rican and American citizenship. Mercy11 (talk) 22:41, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I think it should say Puerto Rican actor. This would be consistent with the thousands of similar pages.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 03:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Alright listen Eloquent you dumbass. Who the hell says place of birth has anything to with your nationality? Go search and you will find out. I agreed on Puerto Rican American. Keanu reeves was born in Lebanon but is he Lebanese? Course not. He is clearly Canadian. So first learn and then talk. Jesus. Nationality is a relation between you and your own considerable country. POB is a whole other thing. Samuel Malik (talk) 19:48, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

As for the term "Puerto Rican American", it is ambiguous and confusing and, imo, should never be used. There's a good reason why there's no article in WP by that title: On the surface it may seem this term would be analogous to some other similar terms that allude to heritage like African American, Cuban Americans, Mexican American, etc., however, it's not. The first problem is that, ignoring grammatical usage, there is a difference between, say, Mexican-American (with the dash) and Mexican American (without the dash). With the dash, "Mexican-American", it's often seen used to refer to someone with a Mexican father (or mother) and an American mother (or father), regardless of where the person lives, has his residence or is a citizen of. So if we hear that a person that lives in Austria is Mexican-American, they are saying he has parents from Mexico and from the U.S. Without the dash, "Mexican American", in its most basic meaning refers to an American (i.e., a US citizen) of Mexican heritage. Since neither of the 2 usages has to do with citizenship anyway, then one erroneous (second) assumption frequently made is that with or without the dash they both refer to nationality. But actually neither form refers to Nationality, but are used in an attempt to combine into one word aspects of both, a person's citizenship (America) and national origin, nationality (Mexican).

That "Puerto Rican American" as a Nationality is wrong is also proven by millions of publications, including The CIA Factbook, a publication of the US Government, the government that owns Puerto Rico, and an admittance by Washington that the Nationality of someone born in Puerto Rico is NOT "Puerto Rican American" but "Puerto Rican" (use the Country drop-down in the link, pick Puerto Rico, and then expand the "People" section and review under Nationality).

Again, the way to sort them out is KISS all the speculation good-bye and just go back to basics, and get well grounded on the dictionary meaning of both terms, Nationality and Citizenship. And this is how The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language defines the two terms:

• Nationality: "The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization."
• Citizenship: "The status of a citizen with its attendant duties, rights, and privileges"

Note how in the definitions only one is associated with birth: Nationality. So, yes, Nationality has everything to do with Place of Birth (POB).

We cannot change the Nationality of Benicio Del Toro because he doesn't seem Puerto Rican, because he looks American, because his personality seems American , or any other such subjective personal perceptions, nor because he grew up in America, because he lived in America most of his life, or any other such inconsequential factual information, or even because like Cuban Celia Cruz who was made famous from performing Cuban music, Del Toro was made famous for performing in American films. What counts is where he was born. POB is the one single factor that determines Nationality. The only way to change his Nationality is to change the place he was born.

IAE, here is what Del Toro's Wikipedia's Infobox person template has to say about the difference between Nationality and Citizenship:

• Nationality: "May be used instead of |citizenship= (below) or vice versa in cases where any confusion could result. Should only be used with |citizenship= when they differ. (See |birth_place=, above, for instructions on how to use this parameter, including: no flag templates, inappropriate linking, anachronisms, "country" definitions, etc.)"
• Citizenship: "Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality. Rarely needed. See usage notes for |nationality=, above. Should only be used if citizenship differs from the value in |nationality= and cannot be inferred from the birthplace."

Note how in the template only one is associated with birth place: Nationality. So, yes, Nationality has everything to do with Place of Birth (POB), which is why Benicio Del Toro's nationality is Puerto Rican, only Puerto Rican, and never American. Mercy11 (talk) 02:05, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh jesus christ. Our own Wikipedia article says nothing about place of birth and nationalities. I understand the mexican American thing. But POB has nothing to do with nationality. You dumbasses. I was born in France. To American parents. I never heard anyone calling me French. So just understand that. I believe you 2 were the only dumbasses who thought that. Rest of the community is aware of the fact. The POB and nationality is alot different. Samuel Malik (talk) 16:27, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

He is Puerto Rican.The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 01:01, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

References

I am removing nationality. That's what we agreed on.

Samuel Malik (talk) 13:05, 27 September 2019 (UTC)