Talk:Józef Biss

Misrepresentation of sources

On top of sources restriction breach (see - Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations there is nothing in these news outlets about the subject being a war criminal or any other details introduced into the article.

Source 1-[1] reads (google translated):

"People's Talk Show on the square in front of Ivan Franko Lviv National University. Large outdoor, festive studio - even closer to you! We celebrate the 30th anniversary of Ukraine's Independence together. Come to the square and tell your story of the formation of the independence of our state.

Source 2 - [2] reads (google translated):

"Klimkin suggested that Poland ban Pilsudski and the Home Army Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin said Ukraine was ready to recognize crimes against Poles, but insisted that Poland take a similar step. The Minister wrote about this in an article for Zbruch. Klimkin stressed that he condemned all crimes committed during the Ukrainian-Polish conflicts during and after World War II, both those directed against Ukrainians and those directed against Poles. But today the Polish side is trying to equate the national liberation struggle of Ukrainians with crimes against the Polish civilian population, the minister said. In principle, in this way you can discredit any liberation movement. But even in such situations, civilized Europe has long found the answer: each crime is individual and has its perpetrators, who should be responsible for it, the minister wrote. According to Klimkin, attributing the crime to the whole nation or to the whole liberation movement is an unacceptable propaganda manipulation. If some Polish politicians continue to insist on banning Stepan Bandera and the UPA in Ukraine, they should first of all ban Józef Pilsudski with his cruel "pacification" of Ukrainians in Galicia, as well as the Home Army, whose troops carried out bloody punitive actions against Ukrainian villages, "the Foreign Minister said. The Minister called the tragedy of the Ukrainian village of Pavlokoma, in which 366 Ukrainians were shot dead in 1945 under the command of Lieutenant Józef Biss, an example of the crimes of the Home Army and local Polish self-defense. "And there were more than one or ten such villages. So what are we going to do with the Home Army?" The minister asks. "We are ready to recognize and condemn the crimes committed against Poles, but Poland must do the same with regard to crimes against Ukrainians. For now, it consciously demonstrates a clear one-sided vision: fluffy ", - added the Foreign Minister. It will be recalled that Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Pavlo Klimkin will pay a working visit to Poland on March 3 to take part in a memorial service dedicated to the anniversary of the shooting of Ukrainians by Polish underground units in the village of Pavlokoma in March 1945.” GizzyCatBella🍁 23:18, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

One source is here

...[3] - thank you brand new account. The obstacle is that Józef Biss is mentioned only in passing, but that’s a good start. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:10, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

This mass murderer's actions are described sufficiently there.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 10:15, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Could you please stop removing tags. This article remains unsourced. - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

It now has three sources: East European Politics and Societies journal, article in The Day, and eurointegration. Look at the article and count carefully, one, two, three. Three. Not unsourced. Three.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 10:36, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

No “Erin”, one allowed source only that mention the subject in passing - see below - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:44, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

So far we have only one source that meets Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:35, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Was Biss antisemitic too? I thought he killed Ukrainians, not Jews. He did his banditry and mass murder long after the war was over and Galicia was liberated.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 10:41, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I don’t know, was he? Article lacks sources so we don’t know, but you removed all the tags. Read this Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations again please and try to find - ..all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II.. in the text. Can you see it? - GizzyCatBella🍁 10:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I added another source which has him as Josef. This is Ukrainian history.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 10:57, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

This source also mentioned the subject in passing only. So what about all the not allowed sources you keep restoring? Are you going to do anything about them? - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:03, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Not allowed? You aren't my mother. https://www.academia.edu/37903388/Paw%C5%82okoma_3_III_1945_r Eugeniusz Misiło, Pawłokoma 3 III 1945 r., Warszawa: Ukar, 2006, ISBN 83-60309-02-7, OCLC 165951186 has dozens of pages on that mass murderer Biss.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 11:22, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

You are not my mother you say :) I wonder why not "..my father". Did we interact anywhere before? So you insist of relying upon not allowed sources, correct? ... the newest source is good. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:39, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella, I don't see how you get to allow or disallow sources on war in Ukraine, your link is not relevant. I assumed you, GizzyCatBella, are female because "Bella: "Bella is a female name. It is a diminutive form of names ending in -bella." Do you identify as male, queer, non-binary, or genderfluid? I will correct mother to father if required.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 12:45, 25 August 2021 (UTC) strike globally banned sock puppet

"Erin Vaxx" - It’s not me who allows or disallows sources, it’s an Arbitration Committee. You know who these volunteers are, don’t you? :) This article is .. on the topic of Polish history during World War II.. Just to stop you from repeating yourself about "Galicia being liberated" etc. blah blah blah "Ukrainian history", read this again Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations and check the date when the war ended[4]. ... and you don’t have to explain yourself, that’s fine. I was just wondering (.. :) ..) how suddenly you know who I am. That's all, okay? - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:04, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

A very good source

This source covers the subject in details, I’ll try to work on the article later when I find some time - [5] - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC) Page - 43 - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Possible copyright violation

Direct translation [6] from the source might be a copyright violation. GizzyCatBella🍁 13:13, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Edit-warring and poor editing methods

@GizzyCatBella:, hi. I see you're taking this personally and going over the top.

1. You removed the source in one of two positions, leaving it in the other - wrong, by any standards.
2. Then you removed the source totally claiming that a "dead link is no RS" - wrong again, by Wiki standards; a "dead link" tag is enough, looking it up on Wayback Machine even better.
3. Now you re-reverted, offering a completely different reason.
4. It is common to leave the existing source such as it is, with a "dubious" or "clarify" or some other tag, warning the user that it's not fully reliable, at least until a good source is found, rather than removing the source, but leaving the material in place, but unsourced. That's the worse of all options. If you are "Wiki-bold", you remove the incriminated material. Like this, it's neither here, nor there.

I won't even bother to look up the arbitration decision you sent me to, because that's not my point. My point is that you're neither respecting Wiki procedures, nor are you being consistent. The main goal is to offer reliable information to the user, each edit should add to that; now it's worse than before you stepped in. Once you choose a "cause" and that becomes the goal, quality editing goes out the window. So please don't go there. This is not a catch-as-catch-can wrestling ring. I know history in those parts is a can of worms, and the only thing that can make things worse is inconsistent, dogged POV editing. I'd appreciate not having to come back to this. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 19:58, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Arminden look, if you "won't even bother to look up the arbitration decision" so what we are going to talk about here? That is not a RS and on top of that linked to the dead website that it is the NOT a RS. It is a blog. It was not me entering that info or the source. All the information was entered today by a new account that wrote this article without any sources. Check the history and this talk page above before jumping to conclusions. I posted a RS above that the article could be worked from and that is what I’m trying to do when I find some time. But if you want to help me please do. - here is the link to the RS again[7]. Details regarding that person are on page 43. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:24, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella, what we are going to talk about here I don't know, if anything. What bothered me is very clearly stated here-above, numbered through and all. Your issues with others are not mine, there is no rule or custom that one needs to read the whole edit history to understand why another editor took shortcuts and did smth that is plain wrong. But I've been around for long enough to know that one can get mad at one editor, and let it out on another (or their edits), it happened to me too, and that this is not mathematics, so I won't insist. Just please know that I have no particular preference for any of the opinions and national sensitivities here, I'd much rather go with what Mr Klimkin said about the modern European way of solving such disputes (so you see, I did take a look at the discussions on the page). Maybe he's the biggest demagogue east of Vienna, or maybe his solution is far from ideal, but the spirit is. So, until you have the time to mine the RS for pure facts, let's just set the actually quoted source next to the cited material, with the "dubious" tag next to it - or go ahead and remove it all. Just not like this, material in, but no indication where it's from. Btw, do you know a more appropriate tag, one like "source not acceptable", "sub-standard", or "not a RS"? I don't, but maybe there is one. Arminden (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I think you tagged it correctly, I tagged the entire article as well. I’ll try to verify every single line as soon as I can because there might be a lot of “boloney” there indeed, as you noticed already. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:12, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Great. Btw, the pompous "steadfast defender" bit in the title of that blog entry or whatever it is says a lot, don't underestimate the modern reader. On a tangent, the Kundera story that came to my mind is a great one, and for a person interested in history like you it's worth reading this and this: it proves that it's just yet another case of "a story too good to be spoiled by facts". Or a made-up one, but in a fiction book, so it's OK. Arminden (talk) 21:25, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Bella, I hope you have found sources for much more of the material and not all what you removed so far will remain permanently deleted. I am happy that I got to read the article before it got so drastically decimated - I guess I know what to trust and what not up to a point, so I didn't care too much about the quality of that source once I knew it's a blog, but the many linkable names of units, officers, battles, locations, all gave me a good picture of a period and region I knew tok little about. Anyone coming here from now on won't get that. I hope you see what I mean. Please do try to bring back most of it, using whatever RSs you can find. I do appreciate it's quite an effort, but that's what we're supposed to do. Thank you! Arminden (talk) 00:49, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I’ll get back as much info as I can confirm, the problem is that I’m busy with my grandchildren's boys so it will take a while. - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Source concensus

Note to established editors. I’m trying to obtanin consensus about the reliability of this source [8] (Lwów region - Historical and sightseeing guide). It is very hard to find sources regarding Józef Biss, I used the above book to reference this edit[9]. Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations first and let me know what you think. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:08, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Misiło, Eugeniusz has nothing on the Biss stopping the 14th SS division, it just states his sorry band of bandits was disarmed by the Red Army. Misiło, Eugeniusz covers Biss in great detail, it is 14 page biography note inside a book on the massacre. Can you give a quote from this sightseeing guide with more information? It is a sightseeing guide, so really is not reliable. It is also not hard at all to find information on Biss, searching for Biss+Pawlokoma gives lots of results and all the scholars state he is the leader of the murderous gang.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 05:42, 28 August 2021 (UTC) strike globally banned sock puppet

Which part of "established editors" isn’t clear for you Erin Vaxx? - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:51, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Why are you try to use a sightseeing guide on this Polish mass-murderer of Ukrainians?--Erin Vaxx (talk) 06:19, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Please note - Erin Vaxx is a brand new account, they removed my note, so I’m posting the diff here -->[10] - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:26, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I registered my account on October 19th, 2020. Almost a year ago. Your post above is false.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 06:30, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Erin Vaxx, regardless, making no comment on any of the above, having no opinion on any of these sources, I feel it is my duty to inform you that, as someone with 88 total edits as of this writing, you are definitely not included in "established editors." This is not in any way a comment on your conduct, or in your great potential to become a high quality editor on wikipedia. It is simply stating that GizzyCatBella was almost definitely trying to source input from the wider WP:RSN community on an ongoing dispute. You are not helping your case by disregarding that. It will actually probably help you if you allow that wider community to comment in the absence of your input.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 06:42, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Shibbolethink I am not "brand new account", that is false, and stated above by GizzyCatBella. I have been here for a year, that's not brand new. Please look into GizzyCatBella's editing. This man is primarily known for committing a great war crime against civilians, the Pawłokoma massacre. All residents of the village above the height of a measuring stick were murdered and dumped into pits. Including 12 year olds. Almost all sources discuss this, but GizzyCatBella is trying to make this murderer into a hero.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 06:51, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

GCB is doing no such thing and such a claim is a personal attack. Volunteer Marek 21:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

(copy/paste my prior comment from[11]) - I'll add that one of those first edits of "Erin Vaxx" was in the area where I was editing where they arrived to revert my edit -->[12]. It appears, and it's possible, the person who may hide behind the new account "Erin Vaxx" is following me around (as now, around 100's of new accounts do since 2019).GizzyCatBella🍁 22:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Stop these meritless accusations, I am not hiding. I undid once, months ago, in an edit in which you added the Soviet Union to the Axis powers. A ludicrous addition, because the Soviet Union was one of the main Allied Powers, contributing greatly to the Allied war effort. The Soviet Union liberated most of Europe. The Soviet Union suffered the most war casualties of any Allied Power.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 06:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I suggest you strike the false accusations about GCB above. Volunteer Marek 08:02, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean strike? And what's false here? GizzyCatBella added the USSR to the Info box of Axis Powers ---> [13]. Calling it "well-sourced material". Ludicrous.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 08:16, 29 August 2021 (UTC) strike globally banned sock puppet

I'm sure you know very well what it means to strike a comment. I'm also pretty sure you know very well that I'm talking about your extremely offensive suggestion made above that "GizzyCatBella is trying to make this murderer into a hero" - that is a personal attack and frankly I should've just reported you right away rather than asking you to strike it. These litte games are getting a bit tiresome. Volunteer Marek 08:25, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Poor edit, glorifying murderer

That edit [14] was very poor. It removed reliable sources and reliably sourced information. It also placed false information. Misiło has nothing about a brutal investigation, to the contrary it describes a timid affair and Biss nearly being released without action until he admitted to writing a report on liquidating communists which is what got him sentenced. The court in 1945 did not look at Pawłokoma at all, Misiło is clear on this. The military court initially sentenced him to seven years (not two), but reduced the sentence due to amnesty - a reduction that was overturned by the next court. After Pawłokoma, Biss's unit attacked a NKVD unit which is important for his arrest. Biss supposed participation in defense against UPA attacks (Żołynia, Kraczkowa, Dylągowa, Sielnica, Dynów, and Tarnawka) is not documented by any source. His genocidal massacre in Pawłokoma is described by sources in detail.--Erin Vaxx (talk) 06:01, 28 August 2021 (UTC)strike globally banned sock puppet

You are removing some sources and adding others. You are also introducing highly offensive and POV language like "Polish murderers" into the article (what's the point of that?). Some of the info is fine but overall the edits are deeply problematic. On top of that you're clearly a brand new account with thorough knowledge of how Wikipedia works, which raises some obvious questions. There's a restriction on articles related to Poland and WW2 which prohibits edits by accounts with less than 500 edits and three months tenure. Volunteer Marek 20:10, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

War criminal?

He is categorized as such (plus, mass murderer). But those terms are not used in the article body. They are not used in Polish Wikipedia (nor is he in pl:Kategoria:Polscy zbrodniarze wojenni), where instead there is some unreferenced content about him being acquited. Should he be removed from those categories here? @Dreamcatcher25 _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:18, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Nothing in the body supports such categorisation, also it seems that his role in the Pawłokoma massacre isn't well established; so I think we should remove this category. Marcelus (talk) 21:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)