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September 25

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Category:Villains turned heroes (fictional)

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The result of the debate was Delete. ∞Who?¿? 04:32, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Terrible naming aside, it falls under overcategorization, and could easily be solved by throwing them into hero and villain categories. Apostrophe 20:30, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:British celebrities

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The result of the debate was No consensus (no change). ∞Who?¿? 05:45, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a proper category for British celebs who are actually barred from being here, according to the opening sentence and the way itr is being policed. It is a holding cat for those articles which cannot be categorised anywhere else. Go put the rubbish somewhere else and either delete or turn into a real category SqueakBox 18:00, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

vote struck, placed before moved to Cfd, user voted again below. ∞Who?¿? 05:45, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why the wrong place? People can vot6e on the subject here, SqueakBox 18:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    If this was a category for British cerlebrituies I would be happy with it, but it is not. I would like it to be a category for celebrities, containing all British celebrities, and making that info easily accessible, instead of having to trawl through the rubbishy non celebs who populate it and then trawl through other categories looking for real British celebs. At the moment you can't find British celebs in Wikipedia, signifying a breakdown in the cat system, SqueakBox 18:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment filed in the wrong place - relisting here. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 19:14, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as above. However this is a highly problematic category type and their is clearly great reluctance to use it. Apart from Britain only Hong Kong, Singapore and Canada appear to have celebrity categories. The Hong Kong category is being used in the same way as the British one (entries only for people famous for unusual reasons, other types of celebrity linked in the blurb) while the other two contain the obvious subcategories. Putting mainstream celebrities directly into such categories is out of the question because they would become ludicrously large and the category would become useless as a means of giving a home to the oddballs, who would be lost amid a sea of actors and singers. If someone wants to add the singer, actor etc subcategories I won't object to thatCalJW 00:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Move the articles to Category:British people. It is standard to put people in the "Fooish people" category if they do not fall into any of the subcategories. -- Reinyday, 01:41, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. As per CalJW's comments this is a problematic category. However, it is clearly not a catch-all category but designed to be used for people famous for being famous. Such people constitute a class of person (alas) in modern (British) society and some of those currently in there (e.g. Victoria Hervey) fit this description. The non-existence of similar cats by other nationality may be a reflection on the greater seriousness of those societies :) Valiantis 15:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete seems point of view to me and hard to police. I can't quite see how anyone can meet the criteria, it being a paradox. Victoria Hervey is already well categorised as a socialite, which is perhaps what this category is attempting to categorise. However, perhaps, given Category:Internet personalities we could rename to Category:Media personalities? Hiding talk 18:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • That much worse IMO. It is a modern term and invites people to add all sorts of people who have other categories - and it will be much harder to justify keeping them out than it is with the current form. CalJW 03:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as it stands. For this to function correctly, it needs remaking over. The information extracted by its current formulation is not encyclopaedic, and probably doens't even get mentioned in the preamble's words in the articles. A cat for Brit celebs is (barely) workable if careful thought is given to it, but not in its present form. However, a rename per Hiding is a weak second choice. -Splashtalk 19:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment there is also Category:Canadian celebrities and Category:Hong Kong celebrities which are basically the same concept. It seems like overcat'ing, Hiding's rename isn't a bad idea. This should include the other two cats as well. ∞Who?¿? 19:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • reclassify and delete. Category:British beauties and Category:British dandies will handle half of these, and I suspect the rest are similar lacks of imagination. (Anyone who thinks Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire was famous for being famous should read the article.) Septentrionalis 20:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dandies might do, but "Beauties" is hopelessly pov. If you can think of more subcategories which aren't too pov, please go ahead and create them, rather than abusing the people who have done the previous spadework. By the way, I've read a book about Georgiana, and I think that apart from "Duchess", "celebrity" is the best term that can be used to classify her. CalJW 03:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, and use more specific and meaningful categories instead. - Sean Curtin 04:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now. Has Sean Curtin tried to come up with "more specific and meaningful categories" for this ragbag? Carina22 17:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. James F. (talk) 23:12, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. — Instantnood 16:29, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Film by director

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The result of the debate was Rename to Category:Films by Powell and Pressburger. ∞Who?¿? 04:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Powell and Pressburger films was recently renamed Category:Films directed by Powell and Pressburger as part of an umbrella discussion to standardize the directors cats. However a question has been raised about some of the articles where both directors were not acting as a director but one was a writer. The films are still considered films of "Powell and Pressburger". The question now is whether to rename the new cat. Possible choices given were: Category:Films by Powell and Pressburger, Category:Films made by Powell and Pressburger, Category:Films created by Powell and Pressburger, not to change or keep. ∞Who?¿? 16:16, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Subcategories of sports venues by country categories

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The result of the debate was Rename some (American football, Baseball, Basketball, and Golf). ∞Who?¿? 17:40, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To align with "Man-made objects" subrule of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories), rename all "by country" subcats of

to "thing in country" format (and update Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) accordingly). -- Rick Block (talk) 15:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

--Scott Davis Talk 07:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Football (soccer) venues by country

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The result of the debate was No consensus (no change). ∞Who?¿? 15:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Separated for ease of discussion purposes (relevant comments from above copied or moved here). -- Rick Block (talk) 17:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • (copied from above) Rename all. I'm glad there is some fruit from cat titles' discussions. And venue is a good word to standardise to. -Splashtalk 19:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • (copied from above) Rename all. siafu 00:41, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • (copied from above) Rename as suggested. James F. (talk) 23:12, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • (copied from above) Oppose proposed name for football venues and proposed name for motor racing circuits, both of which are U.S./North America centric. It is not necessary to mention "soccer" outside the U.S. and one or two other countries. IMO they should be "Motor racing circuits" and "football venues", with exceptions for the few where these are not the local terms. The "car race tracks" categories were created by a Canadian. It's taken me a while to spot this one, and this sort of thing is exactly why this should not be a speedy. This is in line with preference for local usage for national transport(ation) categories, which is remarkably uncontroversial. CalJW 02:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Football (soccer) venues in foo" places the more widely used term in a superior position, while preserving understandability for American readers. The point is not where the venues are, but where the reader is. This compromise is already in use for the parent category name (which is in turn a subcat of Category:Football venues, which includes both kinds).
      • It is fine as a disambiugator at that level, but not for more detailed categories. By the time American readers reach the national categories, they will know they are reading about "soccer". I strongly object to your habit of latching onto any category names that you approve of as evidence that the changes you propose are not changes of policy at all, while ignoring the names of other relevant categories which point in a different direction, even if there are far more of them. CalJW 06:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • By the time American readers reach ... implies a category visitation order that I believe there's no reason to assume. A reader could very well reach a list of country-related categories and, in this list, see a category named "Football venues in ..." where the context is the country (not the sport). Most Americans (I'm sorry to say) would expect this to be a category of American football (not soccer) stadiums. What does it hurt to have the disambiguator? And, BTW, please adhere to Wikipedia:No personal attacks. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose proposed name for football venues. In most of the world, the sport is known as football, so, the name of the category should be "football venues". The word "soccer" is redundant. Carioca 03:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose renaming football venues. That would be a change of policy, not a standardisation exercise. Osomec 10:54, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neutral: "Football" means different things in different places, so the football-related articles may need special cases to be sensible in context. However, I note that the article is called Football (soccer) so for consistency, using that full phrase in the category is reasonable.
--Scott Davis Talk 07:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose inclusion of the word "soccer" in any category where it is not included already as it is not needed. Bhoeble 19:21, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose adding the word "soccer" to any more countries. Carina22 16:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment All the votes for change were made when users were under the false impression that they were simply being asked to endorse existing policy, but there is no policy on this point. Therefore I believe they should be discounted unless reaffirmed. No one has voted for change since I pointed out the error. CalJW 00:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose adding the word soccer unless it's local usage, and disambiguation with other sport, e.g. rugby football, Canadian football, American football, is necessary. — Instantnood 19:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Motor racing circuits

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The result of the debate was Rename subs to "Motor racing venues in country". ∞Who?¿? 16:53, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Separated for ease of discussion purposes (relevant comments from above copied or moved here). -- Rick Block (talk) 17:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • (copied from above) Rename all. I'm glad there is some fruit from cat titles' discussions. And venue is a good word to standardise to. -Splashtalk 19:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • (copied from above) Rename all. siafu 00:41, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • (copied from above) Rename as suggested. James F. (talk) 23:12, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • (copied from above) Oppose proposed name for football venues and proposed name for motor racing circuits, both of which are U.S./North America centric. It is not necessary to mention "soccer" outside the U.S. and one or two other countries. IMO they should be "Motor racing circuits" and "football venues", with exceptions for the few where these are not the local terms. The "car race tracks" categories were created by a Canadian. It's taken me a while to spot this one, and this sort of thing is exactly why this should not be a speedy. This is in line with preference for local usage for national transport(ation) categories, which is remarkably uncontroversial. CalJW 02:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Motor racing" includes both automobile and motorcycle, and "circuit" in the US would be a series of races (for example, the "NASCAR circuit" is the series of NASCAR races at a variety of individual race tracks). To use "Motor racing circuits in the United States" as a category for individual tracks would simply be wrong. I understand "motor racing circuit" is what an individual automobile race track is called (at least in the UK), so it seems some compromise is in order here. The "car race track" suggestion merely reflected the existing naming.
    • Rick Block (talk) 04:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • The European and Australian ones should be "motor racing circuits". Please stop trying to rush things through as though they are merely confirmation of existing policy when it is unlikely that a discussion has ever taken place. IMO these should be have been dealt with one at a time so that the issues can be discussed. CalJW 06:08, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support "Motor racing circuits in country", (but oppose "car race tracks in country")
      • Category:Motor racing circuits: subcats to be "Motor racing circuits in <country>". Motor racing circuits could include venues used for motorbikes, go-karts, speedway etc. which are excluded by a name of "car race tracks", leading to a desire to create parallel Category:Motorbike race tracks, with many tracks included in both.
--Scott Davis Talk 07:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMO, the best approach in these sorts of cases is to avoid using a US-centric or UK-centric term if something else can be used that is US/UK neutral. How about "Automobile race courses in foo"? Is this sufficiently US/UK neutral? -- Rick Block (talk) 17:45, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unfortunately not. "Automobile" is the least neutral term which has featured in this discussion. We say "car" in the UK (which includes what Americans call "light trucks"). Bhoeble 19:27, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • The question is not what do you say, but what can you unambiguously understand. Do you immediately comprehend "automobile race course" to be the same as "motor racing circuit" or is it such a foreign phraseology that you have no idea what it might mean? I immediately understand "motor racing circuit", but NOT as a single race course ("circuit" meaning a series of races, as opposed to the closed loop layout of an individual course). -- Rick Block (talk) 18:26, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment'The point is that non-Americans do not want to unambiguously understand when using Wikipedia that it is entirely controlled by Americans and the rest of us are mere guests whose own version of English is considered of less value than American English. That is why there is a policy that British English has equal status. CalJW 00:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose use of car race tracks for any outside the US (and maybe Canada). Use motor racing circuits for all the others. Bhoeble 19:27, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "car race tracks" except where it is local usage. Carina22 16:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment All the votes for change were made when users were under the false impression that they were simply being asked to endorse existing policy, but there is no policy on this point. Therefore I believe they should be discounted unless reaffirmed. No one has voted for change since I pointed out the error. CalJW 00:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Possible compromise: Would everybody be comfortable enough with Category:Motor racing tracks and Category:Motor racing tracks in Country? The language sounds clumsy, but it seems maybe everybody can accept it. --Scott Davis Talk 01:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • How about "Motor racing venues"? This would seem to include (um) places where motorcycles (um) compete against each other by trying to go faster as well as places (um) other motorized vehicles that aren't motorcycles might engage in similar activities. Such places are called in the US "car race tracks", "speedways", "drag strips" (these are straight ones, usually 1/4 mile [about 400m] long), and in the UK apparently called "motor racing circuits". This suggestion favors neither US nor UK terminology, either of which (IMO) we should try to avoid. -- Rick Block (talk) 02:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename as motor racing venues. — Instantnood 19:49, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename Now supporting "motor racing venues". CalJW 00:39, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Closing note although it was mentioned to rename the parent, and it would be obvious to do so, it was not tagged as part of the umbrella. It would need sufficient notice in order to be renamed. ∞Who?¿? 16:53, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Athletes at the 2001 World Championships in Athletics

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The result of the debate was Delete. ∞Who?¿? 17:01, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Overcategorization. Currently contains only one article. Punkmorten 15:49, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Subcategories of Category:Airports

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The result of the debate was Rename all subcats to "Airports in foo". ∞Who?¿? 17:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To align with "Man-made objects" subrule of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories), rename all subcats to "Airports in foo" form (and modify Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) accordingly). -- Rick Block (talk) 15:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Subcategories of Category:Forts by country

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The result of the debate was Rename all subcats "Forts in Foo". ∞Who?¿? 17:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Forts have locations, not nationalities; in addition, control of a fort may change hand one or more times over the course of its history. Rename Category:American forts to Category:Forts in the United States, etc. Neutralitytalk 15:27, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So, this is a request to move all subcats to [[:Category:Forts in <countryname>]] and list this convention in the newly official Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) (aligns with the "Man-made objects" subrule). -- Rick Block (talk) 15:42, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Movies Rated PG

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The result of the debate was No consensus (no change). ∞Who?¿? 17:22, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This looks like a biased category. This rating probably only applies to U.S. A movie may have various ratings in different countries. *drew 14:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Kazakh people to Category:Kazakhstani people

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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞Who?¿? 04:43, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Tagged 24 Aug, but not listed here. ∞Who?¿? 09:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Transportation in Tanzania

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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞Who?¿? 04:45, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is another transport(ation) category which wasn't actually amended after it was agreed to switch them to local usage. Tanzania is a former British colony so it uses Commonwealth English. The relevant ministry is called the Ministry of Communications and Transport. Rename category:Transport in Tanzania CalJW 08:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Sport shooters by discipline

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The result of the debate was Delete deleted as empty. ∞Who?¿? 08:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty category, tagged 21 Sept, but not listed here. ∞Who?¿? 08:22, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Portland, Oregon Buildings

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The result of the debate was Merge. ∞Who?¿? 04:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Empty category, tagged 21 Sept but not listed here. ∞Who?¿? 08:18, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • The following articles could be added to this category, in which case it wouldn't be empty:
Commonwealth Building (Portland, Oregon)
Portland Public Service Building
Fox Tower (Portland, Oregon)
1000 Broadway (Portland, Oregon)
Congress Center (Portland, Oregon)
Architecture in Portland, Oregon
Portland Public Service Building
Wells Fargo Center (Portland, Oregon)
US Bancorp Tower (Portland, Oregon)
Concordia University (Portland, Oregon)
Riverdale High School (Portland, Oregon)
I vote keep and add the appropriate articles. -Seth Mahoney 09:16, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I did not sign my vote! --Jason McHuff 22:52, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Theatre by nationality

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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞Who?¿? 04:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Theatres don't have nationalities, people do. Rename Category:Theatre by country. It is already in category:Categories by country and the closest parallel, literature is "by country". CalJW 06:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:British theatre

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The result of the debate was Merge. ∞Who?¿? 04:52, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into the much better populated category:Theatre in the United Kingdom. CalJW 06:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Australian crime figures

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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞Who?¿? 04:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicts with the format of the other 13 categories in category:Criminals by nationality. Rename Category:Australian criminals. CalJW 06:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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category:United States shopping malls

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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞Who?¿? 04:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All of the other subcategories of category:Buildings and structures in the United States have the building type first except three government related ones and stubs, and it makes for a neater list to have them this way round. So let's rename this one category:Shopping malls in the United States. Two state subcats have been created so far and let's rename them in the same way:

CalJW 06:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Australian linguistics

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The result of the debate was Delete. ∞Who?¿? 05:00, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Non-standard category. It contained 9 articles which I have moved to a new Category:Australian English. That naturally fits into category:Languages of Australia which is the standard form main category and is in the usual culture and society categories, rendering this one redundant. Delete CalJW 05:35, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Royal shows

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The result of the debate was Rename. ∞Who?¿? 05:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All the articles are about shows in Australia. Category:Royal shows in Australia. CalJW 05:20, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Buildings and structures in Australia

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The result of the debate was Rename all. ∞Who?¿? 05:14, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Following the recent mass renamings of country, US state and British county categories to the standard "Buildings and structures" form, the Australian categories should also be renamed "Buildings and structures in X":

I just creatd the Perth category myself, so that's correct already. CalJW 05:02, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Institutions by country and the overall category

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Change as proposed. ∞Who?¿? 05:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Following on from my nomination of category:Iranian institutions below I have decided to address the remainder of these now. "Institutions" is a poor name for a category in a national menu because people interpret it in totally inconsistent ways:

  • As being only for organisations with the word "institute" or "institution" in their name. Example: the Iranian category as nominated separately below. This is a random attribute and it is better to use the term "organisations" so that it is clear that all organisations may be included.
  • To mean institutions in the sense of "national institutions" as in "national icons". This was occurring in the British category before it was renamed category:British organisations and cleaned up.
  • To mean simply organisations. This is fine, but it is better to use the word organisations instead as it doesn't have these ambiguities.

In any case, there are twice as many "organisations" categories and two thirds of the countries with an "institutions" category already have an organisations category as well, which just creates duplication, confusion and more inconsistency. I would like to see all of them merged or renamed. I have removed those items which are not "organisations", but that only amounted to three or four and they are all in appropriate subject area categories in their national menus.

As can be observed from this selection of countries the four largest developed English speaking countries are all managing without an "institutions" category, so surely other countries don't need them either. Please also note that these categories have seen little use - they contain just a few percent of the entries they could contain - so this does not reverse a large amount of categorising effort. I prefer the "s" spelling, but that's a separate and smaller issue, so let's put it to one side for now please.

It follows on from this that we can also delete Category:Institutions by country, but it might come back. However, the overall category:Institutions category seems to me to be an unnecessary subcategory of category:Organizations. There is little consistency as to which types of organisation have been placed in it, and which (far more) have not. So if we delete both, hopefully neither will come back:

CalJW 02:02, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

While adding the deletion notices I found a non-standard variant/duplicate. category:Associations in Ireland should be merged into category:Irish organisations when it has been created by renaming. CalJW 02:18, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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category:Iranian institutions

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. ∞Who?¿? 05:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This nomination follows on from the recent renaming of British institutions as category:British organisations, and my nomination for deletion of category:Swedish institutions on 20 September, which looks likely to succeed. This category is being used in a different way from either of those and this inevitable difference of interpretation of "institutions" is one of the main reasons why I believe institutions by country categories to be best avoided. In this case it has literally been used as a category for organisations with the word institute/institution in their name. The usage of these terms is arbitary, especially when we are dealing with bodies originally named in other languages. I have already added the three articles to category:Science and technology in Iran. I would like to see this renamed category:Organisations in Iran, so that it becomes clear that all organisations can be placed in it. I doubt really that either organisations or institutions categories are needed at the national level as I am standardising the national menus in such a way that there is a subject area category for any conceivable article, but if we delete both forms they are bound to keep coming back, so I think we should maintain the "organisations" categories. CalJW 01:04, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Songs by the Supremes -> Category:The Supremes songs

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was No consensus (no change). ∞Who?¿? 05:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Standardization. --FuriousFreddy 00:54, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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