Talk:2011 Liège attack

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A news item involving 2011 Liège attack was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 14 December 2011.

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Nationality of the attacker

Nordine Amrani doesnt strike me as a typical Belgian name, is there any confirmation of him being Belgian? If not, whats his nationality? Thanks to whoever is more enlightened than me and can provide an answer or a source to that. Xiaozhouzhou (talk) 11:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nordine Amrani definitely does not strike me neither as a typical Belgian name, and there is no need for personal attack like that. Thanks for whoever filled the details to the article. --91.152.66.251 (talk) 20:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Belgian through and through? He has a non-Belgian name, a non-Belgian (and non-European for that matter) appearance and it turns out that he's of Moroccan descent, so it turns out the original poster was correct. The article mentions he's not a Muslim, how is this even relevant? Christopedia (talk) 08:10, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's relevant because unfortunately if a criminal is of Arabic descent, bigots automatically assume that the crime must have an Islamic terrorist motive. You can see it for yourself here. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 09:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree with that statement. since Muslims have been responsible for 18k+ terrorist attacks since 9/11 (see [[1]] for more information) according to the dictates of the Quran as laid down by the prophet of Islam Muhammed, his religion or lack of such is certainly relevant. 76.168.169.86 (talk) 08:21, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do we count the perpetrator among those killed in the attack?

The attack killed three people, and then the perpetrator took his own life. Is it really fair to say that the attack killed four people, thus counting the perpetrator himself among the victims? Surely, the neutrality of an article is not compromised by distinguishing between the guilty and the innocent.

However, the infobox listing "Deaths: 4" is quite correct. Still, it perhaps would be more accurate (and in far better taste) to write "4 (including the perpetrator)"109.58.94.193 (talk) 17:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

well, the suicide is technically not part of the "attack". First there was an attack, killing five, and immediately following the attack, there was a suicide. --dab (𒁳) 18:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The attack killed 3 I believe (besides the perpretor). Why is there spoken of "attacks", it seems like only one attack? The second sentence sais: "the attack" not the attacks, and the article goes on like that. Mvg, Basvb (talk) 19:15, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

my point was, the death of the attacker is not itself the result of the attack, as he was not shot by police, but killed himself after the attack. --dab (𒁳) 06:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Identity and motives

Anyone knows who exactly this guy was and why did the attack? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WilliamDracul88 (talk • contribs) 20:33, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know who he was, but judging by his 58 month jail sentence for posession of military-grade equipment like a grenade launcher and sniper rifle he did the attack because the Belgians failed to lock him up for good. Yes, that's pretty twisted logic. 79.223.186.136 (talk) 21:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Initial comments

initially it was suggested 3 attackers, 1 dead 1 arrested and 1 on the loose (which seems fishy). Someone also suggested a link to the honour killing trial verdict yesterday...thats notable enough to add here. Also the mayor called off the christmas market for today due to weather which could have resulted in more death, we could mention that. Also ambulances called from holand.Also reaction from the EPP (meeting today in Belgum) and Jerzy whathisface at the euro parliament.(Lihaas (talk) 20:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)).[reply]

Police statement said there was one perpetrator. News agencies made some (wrong) connection (probably based on nothing) with an escape earlier that day, where 3 man would have fled from prison (pretty common in Belgium :P). The perpetrator was sentences to 58 months in prison in 2007 or 2008. He was convicted for dealing arms for a gang (8000 arms peaces? and 2800 hash plants.) So a criminal known in the system. Mvg, Basvb (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, he had just come out of prison? After all, he was convicted to 58 months less than 48 months ago? Apparently he was summoned for a police interview, probably in connection with probation. Some sort of "probation", he was in prison for being in possession for dozens of heavy arms, and he can just walk out of prison and supply himself with grenades and an assault rifle? Something went seriously wrong here, you don't need a crystal ball to predict there will be a political aftermath to this. --dab (𒁳) 07:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Background/gun politics

Now, I'm not big the issue but isn't Belgian (or was it Switzerland?) gun politics a little more loose than the rest of Europe? Mare Tranquillitatis (talk) 23:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you are talking about Switzerland where men keep their weapons in their homes for many years after military training (in case they need to defend the country). Though, I'm just guessing, I don't know anything about Belgian gun politics. BytEfLUSh | Talk! 01:28, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Belgian gun laws

I believe this is a summary of belgian gun laws. Looking at the laws, I can surmise that the shooter would not pass the basic requirements. But since he has links to organized crime, its obvious that he simply got the weapons illegally.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/belgium Vmaldia (talk) 01:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Victims

Amrani killed the cleaning woman on Tuesday morning, just before the attack
three dead in the attack itself (two teenagers and an elderly woman)
Amrani's suicide
the baby who died in hospital Tuesday evening
as of Wednesday morning, seven(?) people remain in critical condition, including a 20-year-old man with brain injuries

this would mean a total of six deaths, the woman killed before the attack, four victims of the attack itself, and the attacker's suicide. --dab (𒁳) 07:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The old woman who was said to be have been killed is alive, seriously injured. Jim Michael (talk) 11:52, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And the 20-year old student has now died aswell. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 11:56, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image

Would be appreciative if any Belgians can try get a image. Thanks in advance. -- Karthik Nadar (talk) 07:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Translation error

English news sources widely report "thousands of gun parts" found in perpetrators' home. Surely this is a translation error from French and should mean 'ammunition'?--82.128.190.135 (talk) 11:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Terrorist incidents in Belgium in 2011

The page does not contain word terrorist. Either the page is biased or the Category is wrong. Xx236 (talk) 08:28, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16161746 Officials said the attacker acted alone, ruling out terrorism. Xx236 (talk) 08:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently Lone wolf attack, cathegorized as terrorism.

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/dispatch-lone-wolf-attack-belgium Dispatch: Lone Wolf Attack in Belgium Xx236 (talk) 08:35, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Our article on Lone wolf attack says that 'Studies have found that some lone actor attacks are committed because of personal grievances and a desire for revenge, while others are acts of terrorism'. A single spur-of-the-moment description/guess made before any serious analysis of the event had taken place would not be sufficient as a justification for such a category. Judging from the article, we know absolutely nothing about the perpetrator's reasons to do what he did (if we do, it should be added; they should have interrogated his girlfriend, friends etc.). He didn't leave any manifesto, video swearing allegiance to ISIS or anything else. Terrorism by definition uses violence to pursue political ends, so you can't have terrorism when no political demand is articulated. We can't assume he committed the mass murder because of Islam-related or Middle East-related grievances just because he was of Moroccan origin; this is made even more unlikely in view of the fact that he was not Muslim and could not speak Arabic. I will remove the category for the time being.--62.73.72.3 (talk) 10:16, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see that it has already been removed.--62.73.72.3 (talk) 10:17, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]