Talk:2023 Quran burnings in Sweden

Sweden Low‑importance

	Sweden portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sweden, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sweden-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SwedenWikipedia:WikiProject SwedenTemplate:WikiProject SwedenSweden
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Islam Low‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Discrimination Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Freedom of speech

	Freedom of speech portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Freedom of speech, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Freedom of speech on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Freedom of speechWikipedia:WikiProject Freedom of speechTemplate:WikiProject Freedom of speechFreedom of speech
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Moved, 25 July 2023, from 2023 Quran desecration in Sweden to 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden, see discussion.
No consensus, 1 August 2023, from 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden to 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark, see discussion.
Not moved, 10 December 2023, from 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden to Quran burning crisis, see discussion.

Title of this article

I'm unsure on the title of this article, as it makes it seem as if we are focusing on protests against this in Sweden itself, whereas this article is very much about the outcry within Muslim-majority countries. Not sure what a better title would be but started this discussion in case anyone shared my concern, and notified WP:SWEDEN and WP:ISLAM. GnocchiFan (talk) 17:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think "Quran desecrations in Sweden", makes sense. It follows naturally that you would also discuss responses/consequences even if it isn't explicitly stated in the title. Draken Bowser (talk) 17:49, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I think that would be a better title. GnocchiFan (talk) 18:09, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, major WP:CONCISION issues with the present title. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since there's agreement that the title is inadequate, I've changed the title to 2023 Quran desecration in Sweden. No objections to this being moved to Quran desecrations in Sweden (as suggested) if we're including more information on previous incidents. GnocchiFan (talk) 15:46, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. The additional discussion to add Denmark will apparently be handled separately. [Edit: There is also not yet a consensus to expand the article by removing "2023".] (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 15:16, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Quran desecration in Sweden → 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden – Most of the sources use the term burning, so I think this is the appropriate title.

If editors disagree, this should be moved to 2023 Quran desecrations in Sweden as it refers to more than one event. GnocchiFan (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: DenverCoder19 has added some more information on related Quran burnings in Denmark, and has opened a discussion up on the article talk page on changing the name further. Personally. I think moving this to 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark is preferable, but please see further down this talk page for further information. Thank you! – GnocchiFan (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think "burning" is more propriate, since "desecration" entails a value-judgement, which is more prone to be disputed than the fact, it has been burned. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The obvious NPOV and COMMONNAME title for this article. --Cerebral726 (talk) 18:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:NPOV and WP:NATURALNESS. "Burning" is a more natural term to use and it's also the neutral descriptor. "Desecration" involves a value judgment. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:10, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. 〜 Festucalex • talk 05:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Quran burnings in Sweden. This has been happening before 2023. Sweden's section at Quran desecration ([1]) starts in 2020. Quran books were burnt in the 2020 Sweden riots and the 2022 Sweden riots. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support "Burnings" is that sources use, and as VenusFeuerFalle pointed out "desecration" is less neutral by attributing sanctity to the item.Cortador (talk) 12:13, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support used by most sources and most accurate. DenverCoder9 (talk) 18:01, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Quran burnings in Sweden per Super Dromaeosaurus, the burnings from 2020 to today are largely a connected phenomenon. --AlexandraAVX (talk) 08:49, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 31 July 2023: Swedish-Danish or Scandanavian

There is a clear pattern of protests where the koran is burned, in reaction to the first protest. These protests seem to happen in both Sweden and Denmark. Since there are part of the same "phenomenon", they should be part of the same article.

I've added notes about the follow-up protests for evidence. DenverCoder9 (talk) 18:19, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@DenverCoder19: Thanks for the addition to the article – I was considering whether these are relevant, but the articles on the follow-up protests clearly mention the Quran burnings in Sweden.

Obviously, the article title will need to be changed (as you know, there's already a move request re: desecration or burnings, so I'm a little wary of opening one now). 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark would be my preference over 2023 Quran burnings in Scandinavia, as Sweden and Denmark are specifically mentioned. GnocchiFan (talk) 19:11, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and let's do the first move before the second: let's consider them as separate points. DenverCoder9 (talk) 21:36, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus; with no additional participation since the first relist, I am closing this now. Interested editors should feel free to propose a move to "Quran crisis", "Quran burning crisis", or any other potentially appropriate target at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 13:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Quran burnings in Sweden → 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark – So sorry to request this so soon after my previous move request, but as per discussion on the article talk page, this page probably should be moved to 2023 Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark or 2023 Quran burnings in Scandinavia. Personally I prefer the former, as Sweden and Denmark are explicitly mentioned, and the Danish burnings are clearly seen as a response to the events in Sweden.

Mentioning users involved in the previous discussion / other article talk page discussions for their input: AlexandraAVX, Cerebral726, DenverCoder19, Draken Bowser, Festucalex, Iskandar323, Rreagan007, SilverLocust, Super Dromaeosaurus and VenusFeuerFalle. GnocchiFan (talk) 15:55, 1 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 02:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support, though I still think Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark (or something similar) would be better. The burnings in 2020 and 2022 in Sweden are largely connected to the ones in 2023 in my mind in the same way that the burnings in Sweden and Denmark are. --AlexandraAVX (talk) 16:24, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, I agree with comments below that the name becomes a bit too long. --AlexandraAVX (talk) 07:48, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark. Titling an article of this style with the year restricts it to one single phenomenon, which may or not have extended into several countries. Taking the year out expands the scope into any phenomenon of the type that has taken place in a given place. However we cannot make all Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark into one single article because not all must have been related to each other so it is arbitrary. No opinion on other proposals, though I'm not too keen on using Scandinavia because it doesn't look like this has happened in Norway. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 21:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment after a search on Google, it can be found that the situation is now widely referred to as the "Quran crisis" (Korankrisen in Swedish and Danish media) and as the "Quran burning crisis" in some English-speaking media. Perhaps this should be worked into the title in some form. Thismess (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 21:53, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe as simple as the 2023 Quran burning crisis and leave the specific naming of countries out of the title since it would be overly descriptive to name two countries IMO. Thismess (talk) 22:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would support a rename to 2023 Quran burning crisis, would enable a separate article about the phenomenon as a whole in Sweden and also mean the article would still make sense if the events expand beyond just Sweden and Denmark. --AlexandraAVX (talk) 07:48, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with adding the year. "Quran crisis" or "Quran burning crisis" are bizarre names but they would work because they're proper names created outside of Wikipedia. Adding anything to them makes them descriptive titles created by Wikipedia and the name loses legitimacy since it ceases to be a bizarre proper name and becomes a bizarre name invented by us. We call it World War II and not 1939–1945 World War II. I propose simply using "Quran burning crisis". It's simple and allows us to go beyond 2023 and cover previous cases in Sweden. This also retains the benefit of being able to be extended into Denmark. It's also the most popular name used by English-language sources (I searched "Quran crisis" and a lot of the results are unrelated, it's probably too general of a name; still it's worth being added to the lead). Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:10, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. AlexandraAVX (talk) 10:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not opposed to any of this, and I agree that we can set the title after the dust has settled, but I just want to determine whether the burnings in Denmark should be a separate article from those in Sweden, and whether different burnings should be separated. Until now, I'm going to consider it OK to put related burnings that didn't happen by Swedes or in Sweden specifically in this article, and also OK to put them in different articles. We can figure out where they "should" be later. Agreed, Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Individual incidents won't change that much after the fact, but how they are organized overall might, so let's get individual incident as they come in and organize later. DenverCoder9 (talk) 18:56, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, I don't see how these are the same event. I also fear that this might accumulate in the idea that Quranic burnings and their reactions are a common event throughout European countries. "Quranic crisis" doesn't appear to be popular or notable enough to be the entire article. It is an ongoing event with yet unpredicatble notablity. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a news paper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VenusFeuerFalle (talk • contribs) 13:01, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Consensus against proposed move; further discussion of the alternative proposed move, to "Quran crisis" or "Quran burning crisis", is needed BilledMammal (talk) 02:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 10 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — mw (talk) (contribs) 11:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Quran burnings in Sweden → Quran burning crisis – Since the recent criminalisation of desecration of religious texts in Denmark, I think more weight should be given to Denmark and changing the title would help this. "Quran burning crisis" and "Quran crisis" were terms raised in the last discussion (as opposed to "2023 Quran burnings in Sweden and Denmark", which was my preference), but there was no consensus. If editors have a better title please let me know. GnocchiFan (talk) 10:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: The proposed title removes the timeframe and geographical area, which causes the subject to become terribly imprecisely identified, and the word "crisis" has POV issues. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@BarrelProof: That's fair enough, I appreciate the proposed move title is problematic but only suggest it because editors seemed to support it in the previous discussion and it seems less country-specific. Should the content about Denmark be spun off into an article on the topic, or should it stay here? Thanks. GnocchiFan (talk) 17:39, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At this moment I don't have an opinion on the Denmark question. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:43, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose recentism. Although the events in Sweden are prominent, they are not the first Quran burnings, let along desecration. “Crisis” is both recentism and a POV term to avoid. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.