Talk:Administrative divisions of Yugoslavia
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Border changes
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Border changes during Yugoslavia describes how today international borders has been changed between birth of Yugoslavia on 1 December 1918 and her death on 25 June 1991. During Yugoslavia kingdom 1918 - 1941 there has been try to deleted old internal borders with creation of many Banovina, but when communist has taken power in 1945 they have deleted this changes and returned clock to 1918 borders with little changes. This article is speaking about difference of this borders which will become international in 1991 and borders of 1918. Because greatest number nations of ex Yugoslavia say how they have been victims of fraud and state crime during that period this is highly controversial question
She has been province of Austro-Hungarian empire before entry to Yugoslavia. Only border change of Bosnia has been loosing Herceg Novi to Montenegro. Herceg Novi has been only harbour of this state which is having another entry to sea near to Dubrovnik but this territory is not good for creation of new harbour.
Similar to Bosnia, Croatia has been part of Austro-Hungarian empire before entry to Yugoslavia. Between 1918 and 1991, she will have greater border changes of any other republic. When she has entered Yugoslavia Croatia has been until Belgrade which is in that time Serbian capital and border city. During Tito's rule, communists have made decisions that territory where Serbs are majority will be annexed to Serbia and because of that Croatia has lost everything in Syrmia until city of Ilok. In south east Croatia has been ulmost until Albania because only Montenegro harbours has been Bar and Ulcinj. During border changes Croatia will loose Kotor, Tivat and Budva which will become territory of Montenegro. On the Adriatic coast, Croatia will receive from Italy after World war II territory which she has lost during World War I. This are: Zadar, Rijeka, greatest part of Istria, Dalmatian islands and Cres-Lošinj. How much population of this territory has been Italian and how much Croatian before 1918 and before 1945 is now very hard to say because of Italian ethnic cleansing (1918 - 1943) and latter Yugoslav ethnic cleansing (1945 - 1948)
Macedonia has become part of Serbia during Balkan wars in 1913. Until communist rule "most popular" name for this state has been south Serbia. After World War II communist has declared Macedonia republic to win loyalty of population which has very happy recieved Bulgarian troops in 1941 thinking of them like liberators from Serbia.
Before entry to Yugoslavia, Montenegro has been an independent kingdom. Similar to Croatia, Montenegro will between 1918 - 1991 something receive and something loose. From Bosnia they have recieved Herceg Novi and from Croatia Kotor, Tivat and Budva. On other side they will loose city of Peć which she has taken in Balkan wars to Serbia (Kosovo).
Serbia has been independent kingdom and birth place of Yugoslavia in 1918. During the existence of this united state from part of her teritory will be created Macedonia and this will be only but great loss to Serbia. First Serbia will recieve from Bulgaria in 1919 because of War reparations Bosiljgrad ,Carlbrod and Strumica which will become part of Macedonia in 1945. From Hungary in very similar situation Serbia will recieve Vojvodina after World War I, and from Montenegro, town of Peć. From Croatia, she will receive everything between rivers Sava and Dunav (Syrmia) until Ilok.
Slovenia has been smallest province of Austro-Hungarian state which has entered to Yugoslavia. After World War II and during of Trieste annex between Italy and Yugoslavia she will recieve part of Istria where is today port of Koper. Similar to that Slovenia will expand her western frontier recieving for Italy towns Tolminj, Nova Gorica and Idrija.
Literature
[edit]History maps of Yugoslavia
Discussion
[edit]- 1.) This is not original research or somebody maybe think that is original research to read peace agreement between Serbia and Bulgaria or between Yugoslavia and Italia or communist act which has given 1 or more towns to another republic ?!
- 2) ??
- 3) Where are this article where is spoken about that ??
- This article is ridiculous, just see its introduction part: "Border changes during Yugoslavia describes how today international borders has been changed between birth of Yugoslavia on 1 December 1918 and her death on 25 June 1991" - how can "today international borders" to be changed "between birth of Yugoslavia on 1 December 1918 and her death on 25 June 1991" when such borders WERE CREATED AFTER DEATH OF YUGOSLAVIA IN 1991??? Second: the article in fact speak about borders of present-day countries (Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia) from 19th century to end of the 20th century and the question is "how exactly is that connected to Yugoslavia that existed only from 1918 to 1991?" (Articles related to Yugoslavia usually speak about 1918-1991 period). Therefore, the article is indeed an original research that mixing history of Yugoslavia with histories of Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, etc... PANONIAN 17:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- To say this simply: if we speak about "Border changes during Yugoslavia", we cannot speak about borders before 1918 and after 1991, we can speak ONLY about 1918-1991 period and the things that we can describe there are: 1. counties of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (1918-1922), provinces (oblasts) of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (1922-1929), provinces (banovinas) of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (1929-1941), fascist occupation and partition of Yugoslavia (1941-1944/45), and republics and autonomous provinces of socialist Yugoslavia (1945-1991). In another words, there are only three solutions for this article: 1. total deletion, 2. redirect to Yugoslavia (because info about administrative divisions of Yugoslavia is already mentioned in that article or its subarticles) , or 3. complete rewritting so that it speak about 1918-1991 period only. PANONIAN 18:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This article is about with what has today independent states entered Yugoslavia and with what have they left. Can we agree that article speak about that ? To make long story short all of today states (not Macedonia) has been independent before creation of Yugoslavia with very good know borders ! If we can agree about that then we can agree what will be good name for this article ? Rjecina 18:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- As I said: "today independent states DID NOT entered Yugoslavia" because THEY DID NOT EXISTED in 1918 when Yugoslavia was created - these states were created in 1991-1992. Therefore, the article cannot speak about non-existing things. We can only have article that speak about administrative divisions of Yugoslavia from 1918 to 1991 and that is all, but I do not see a point why would we writte such article because all of that is already mentioned in other articles related to Yugoslavia. Regarding your statement that "all of today states (not Macedonia) has been independent before creation of Yugoslavia" it is so ridiculous that it is even not worthy of commenting - did you ever heard for Austria-Hungary that ruled over these "independent states"? PANONIAN 18:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I remember that you have been working on article State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. Do you want to say now that this state has never existed ? If you say that now, but before you have writen other things then you are wiki vandal :))
To write little history of Yugoslavia birth because of persons which know very little about that.
short timeline: end of XIX century - Croatia is kingdom with known borders in union with Hungary
29 october 1918 - Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia are declaring independence (which is accepted by Hungary and Austria) and creation of union with name State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. Capital is Zagreb
november 1918 Serbia is making annexation of Montenegro. This is funny because they have been allies:))
1 december 1918 State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs is declaring union with kingdom of Serbia.
Now you will say that State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs has not existed or what ? If this state has existed then borders exist. My thinking is that your problem with this article is that Serbia is not victim of Yugoslavia ?Rjecina 19:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs also did not existed during existence of Yugoslavia, but before it, so it is again not the subject of "Border changes during Yugoslavia". Also, there is article named Yugoslavia that speak about its birth and there is article History of Croatia which speak about Croatian history. PANONIAN 21:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Only now I understand that you are playing with me and nothing else. Article is speaking about : "how today international borders has been changed between birth of Yugoslavia on 1 December 1918 and her death on 25 June 1991".
Article is not speaking if borders before has been international or not. You are speaking about that not I. Borders before 1918 has existed it is not important if this has been inside Austria or international ! Now in my thinking this article is OK and I am interested to know what will not be problem. Your comment that other articles are speaking about that is not good because not 1 article is speaking about this border changes?Rjecina 23:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
But "how today international borders has been changed between birth of Yugoslavia on 1 December 1918 and her death on 25 June 1991" is really not a valid subject for an encyclopaedic article - do you understand at all what term "encyclopaedic article" mean? An encyclopaedic article is very different from an "newspaper article" and you exactly want to writte an newspaper article in encyclopaedia. However, I will propose you compromise how we can make an encyclopaedic article from this:
- 1. It should have encyclopaedic title, like "Administrative divisions of Yugoslavia"
- 2. Besides administrative divisions of Yugoslavia, it could also mention South Slavic countries and provinces that existed before creation of Yugoslavia, but not only those that existed in 1918 - it should also mention provinces like Serbian Vojvodina or Illyrian provinces
- 3. For each entry, we can have description of provincial and state borders, but without POV claims that "borders were changed" because modern states and their political predeccessors are only similar, but not same. PANONIAN 16:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Origins
[edit]Part of article under this name is deleted because consensus is reached on other wiki page which will be very soon deleted. Part of discussion from this page: "If I need to choose between this version of article and deleting I support deleting. Similar to that we will need to delete part of article Administrative divisions of Yugoslavia. This part which need to be deleted is under name Origins because is speaking about very similar thing. Rjecina 16:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree 100%. :)) PANONIAN 00:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)"