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Talk:Afghan Arabs

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Opening heading

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This article needs to be expanded, but is certainly not pure nonsense.

Edits by Scythian1

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I propose creating another article called something like History of Arabs in Afghanistan and putting Scythian1 edits in it.

How likely is it users looking for information on the issue of Afghan Arabs in the Soviet war in Afghanistan and the later Afghan civil war are interested in the Sassanians in Nihawand in the 7th century, etc.? In addition to the fact the region was not called Afghanistan at that time.

The two article just do not have enough in common. --BoogaLouie 00:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revert by Scythian1

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However important and interesting the Sassanians in Nihawand in the 7th century, etc. is or is not, it is not what the public means when it hears or uses the phrase "Afghan Arabs". "Afghan Arabs" refers to Arabs and other Muslim fighters who came to Afghanistan in the 1980s during the Soviet-Afghan War and later to help brother Muslims fight Soviets and pro-Soviet Afghans.

This is why Nihawand in the 7th century, etc. is better put in a separate article with a title like History of Arabs in Afghanistan --BoogaLouie 14:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


You are unfortunately ignoring the fact that there is a sizeable number of Afghans who are of Arabic descent from the 1st and 2nd waves of Arabs into the area that now comprises of Afghanistan. It would be erroneously unjust to lump the article into one narrative about Arabs who arrived in the third wave. Moreover, all the main articles pertaining to the various groups of Afghanistan have substantial background information about their history, therefore I question your suggestion of creating a seperate article for that purpose. I concede to your point about the term Afghanistan not existing during the 7th century, however appropriate edits shall be made. Scythian1 18:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Assertions of opinion as undisputed fact

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This is the first time I took a real look at this article, and there are some passages that concern me.

For instance, the article currently asserts:

"After the war, many foreign mujahideen stayed in Afghanistan and took Afghan wives. The Afghan Arabs served as the essential core of the foot soldiers of Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda. Bin Laden being 'the undisputed leader of the Arab Afghans' by fall of 1989."

This claim is referenced to:

  • Wright, Lawrence, Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11, by Lawrence Wright, NY, Knopf, 2006, p.145

Wright may have written this, but I question whether it should be asserted as a fact. I have no trouble with it being an assertion explicitly referenced to Wright.

Guantanamo captive Abu Zubaydah describes himself as the registrar for the Khalden training camp, an Afghan training camp, for foreigners, that was not run by al Qaeda, or associated with al Qaeda. According to Abu Zubaydah the Taliban shut down the Khalden camp, and many other independent training camps. When he realized that the Taliban had not shut down bin Laden's training camps he sought him out, and asked him to use his influence with the Taliban to intercede on behalf of the Khalden camp. When he made this request he learned that shutting down the independent camps had been OBL's idea -- not the Taliban's. The Khalden camp was older than al Qaeda's camps, and had a large number of well-known attendees, and was more well-known than al Qaeda's camp. OBL was jealous. Putting this in article space would violate WP:NOR. But I think it justifies asking for greater care about paraphrasing Wright's assertion that OBL was the foreigner's "undisputed leader".

Other Guantanamo captives, testified, in 2004, before their CSR Tribunals that the Taliban shut down the Khalden camp. Abu Zubaydah was in a CIA black site at this time, so this can not be a sign of collusion. Geo Swan 03:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well in defense of Wright he did interview an enormous number of people, including an enormous number of Muslims, in the making of his book, but I have changed the text to include "according to Lawrence Wright."
BTW, did you talk to Abu Zubaydah yourself? --BoogaLouie 20:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No. Of course not. I read the transcript from his CSR Tribunal. Geo Swan 20:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well we should put it in the article, not as a despute over who was the AA leader but as a despute between the Afgh Arab factions --BoogaLouie 00:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

explanation

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I reverted this recent edit. It was unreferenced. And it contradicted the rest of the article. Geo Swan (talk) 04:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Connection with the CIA

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This section does not detail the very real connection between the United States, Pakistan and Afghan Arabs. It only covers a false claim (that the CIA "created" Afghan Arabs) before going on to refute said claim. BBC journalist Greg Palast has documented solid connections between various parties, from funding to travel permits. Dynablaster (talk) 20:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I propose shortening this section. We have a whole page devoted to this topic so there is no need to reproduce exactly the same quotes on both pages. A summary of the controversy will suffice on this page and if visitors wish to learn more, they can find additional details on Allegations of CIA assistance to Osama bin Laden. Dynablaster (talk) 16:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

title change to Islamic mujahid movement

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This article was changed to Islamic mujahid movement 18 September 2009 with the edit summary moved Afghan Arabs to Islamic mujahid movement: narrow terms of reference.
Problems:

  • Islamic mujahid movement is too broad a term of reference. There are many Islamic mujahideen besides the Afghan Arabs. mujahideen is arabic for those waging jihad.) Try googling "Islamic mujahid movement" and see what you get. To be accurate following this path, the article would have to be titled Islamic mujahid movement of non-Afghans in Afghanistan.
  • Afghan Arabs, in contrast, gives a fairly narrow group of articles when googled. Looking at a page or two I found nothing on the history of Arab migration into Afghanistan, the reason for this Disambiguation page.

If I don't hear any protest I am going to rvt the title change --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:00, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    • I think this needs a disambiguation page of some sort. There are Afghans of Arab ancestry who form noticable minorities in certain towns and regions. They are given two sentences in this article. At the same time the pan-Islamic mujahideen fighting the Soviet invasion is also worthy of a page, but I do not think this should be it. Perhaps an "Afghan Arabs" article and an "Afghan Arabs (mujahideen)" article?

Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:43, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Islamic mujahid movement → Afghan Arabs —
Reason for move regarding WP:Title policies:
Precision – titles are expected to use names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously.
Recognizability – an ideal title will confirm, to readers who are familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic, that the article is indeed about that topic. One important aspect of this is the use of names most frequently used by English-language reliable sources to refer to the subject. BoogaLouie (talk) 15:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Support. "Islamic mujahid movement" is too broad a term of reference. There are many Islamic mujahideen besides the Afghan Arabs. (mujahideen is arabic for those waging jihad.) Try googling "Islamic mujahid movement" and see what you get. To be accurate following this path, the article would have to be titled Islamic mujahid movement of non-Afghans in Afghanistan. Afghan Arabs, in contrast, gives a fairly narrow group of articles when googled. Looking at a page or two I found nothing on the history of Arab migration into Afghanistan, the reason for this Disambiguation page. (pasted from above) --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:29, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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