Talk:Aragonese people

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Onofre Bouvila 17:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

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Related to Catalans

The Aragonese are certainly related to Catalans, historically they're also related to Valencians and Balears, and in cultural and linguistic terms they're related to neighboring communities such as Navarre or La Rioja. Too complex to explain in the infobox. --Jotamar (talk) 18:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Valencians and Balearics are Catalans, and speak Catalan. The group closest to Aragonese - in terms of history, laws, customs, language and other factors - are the Catalans. They share the history of the Crown of Aragon separate from the rest of Spain, and even going back earlier to the 'Franks' (Occitans) in the Marca Hispanica and even ancient Iberians of the northeastern region of the Peninsula. They are not that close to Basques of Navarre at all, or Castilians in La Rioja for that matter, except that some in the areas spoke Navarro-Aragonese for a period. Basques moved southwards, and Castilians eastward, which displaced and assimilated what was left of Navarro-Aragonese in southern Navarre and La Rioja in the Middle Ages. There is a closer relation to those regions than to the rest of non-Catalan Spain, but the link to the Catalans is closest. Several Aragonese are also Catalan-speakers. There is a reason why all the former peoples of the Crown of Aragon share the Senyera, but no other groups in Spain do. It would be best maybe to put Castilians, Catalans, and then other 'Spaniards'. Catalans are also not really 'Spaniards', being closer to Occitans, and many reject that grouping altogether or accepting 'Spaniard' only as secondary to being Catalan, and likewise for Basques (distinct from all of the rest of Spain) and Gallegos (closest to Portuguese). 142.118.184.153 (talk) 19:28, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Look, your information about the matter sounds sketchy and bookish at best. When Catalonia becomes an independent country, we'll add Catalans in the infobox, meanwhile they're covered as other Spaniards. Your stereopypes, such as Navarrans becoming Basques, Riojans becoming Castillians, Valencians and Balears being simply Catalans, are pretty misinformed too. Please use your common sense and admit that an insider such as me must have a better understanding of the question. --Jotamar (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Catalans are not simply "Spaniards", but a distinct ethnicity, so "other Spaniards" is not sufficient. Same with the Basques and Galicians. Aragonese have a specific close cultural and historical connection with the former member peoples of the Crown of Aragon, and deserve specific mention. Catalan Valencians and Balearics (i.e. not the Castilian or Aragonese Valencians of western Valencia) are often identified as ethnic Catalans, yes, or sub-groups or sister groups of the wider Catalan macrogrouping Catalan Countries - they are Catalan peoples. Riojans are ethnic Castilians mostly, and derive from assimilation by and intermarriage with Castilian settlers in the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period, and are quite distinct from the Basques. Indigenous Navarrans (not the minority from more recent Castilian extraction) ARE Basques - culturally, ancestrally and/or linguistically - and Navarre is a part of the historical Basque Country. The Navarro-Aragonese speaking population of Navarre in the Middle Ages was already largely of Basque extraction, though speaking a Romance dialect, but underwent complete Basquisation in later times due to increased Basque settlement and assimilation in the southern parts of the Kingdom of Navarre. The Aragonese in Aragon diverged after forming their own Kingdom of Aragon, and by contrast maintained their distinctive Romance-speaking identity, while also intermingling with 'Frankish'/Occitan/Catalan settlers, Moors and Mozarabs as they expanded eastwards and southwards - hence why they became quite culturally and genetically distinctive from the Basques in Navarre. 142.118.184.153 (talk) 20:57, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Your stereotypes keep getting worse and worse. It's obvious that you have very deficient information about Spain, so I advise you not to edit any page related to the country. And don't re-insert your edition while the discussion is on. --Jotamar (talk) 18:03, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

No one is pushing stereotypes here but yourself. You deny the regional and ethnic distinctiveness of various groups in Iberia to try and subsume them all as some Francoist-like fantasy of a monolithic "Spaniards" ethnic group. There are significant genetic, ancestral, historical, linguistic and cultural differences between the ethnicities in Spain. You also deny basic cultural and historical facts about Aragon and Aragonese that tie them strongly to Catalan peoples in Catalonia and Valencia, with a more distant relation to Castilians, especially those of La Rioja. Are you even Aragonese? Aragon and Catalonia were one country together for centuries before foreign Castilians annexed the Crown of Aragon. 142.118.184.153 (talk) 00:22, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

3rd opinion requested. --Jotamar (talk) 18:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Hello Third party here. I see no sources in the discussion, maybe this may help? Also although expert knowledge may be valuable to select relevant information, it does not replace the need for verifiability. So in case of a dispute as yours, I would stick to what reliable sources say. Hope this helps, have a nice day --Signimu (talk) 06:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Whether the A people is more related to the B people than to the C people is an extremely subjective question and we are not going to find any source that says the Aragonese are closer to the Catalans than to the Riojans, and if by any chance we found it, it would amount to a personal opinion at most. This is not a question of sources, bot one of common sense. Catalonia and Aragon (as well as Valencia and Balears) were politically united in the Middle Ages but 5 centuries have gone by and any person with insider information will tell you the same: that neither the Catalans nor the Aragonese feel particularly close to each other. The IP editor is just trying to impose a vision based on a very incomplete understanding of the question. --Jotamar (talk) 17:48, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

"Riojans" are Castilians ethnically, linguistically and culturally, and not a very distinctive ethnicity like the Aragonese, Catalans or Basques. The formation of distinct Aragonese people and culture occurred for a long period while in union with Catalonia for four centuries in the Middle Ages, and then as a separate entity for two centuries after that within the "Crown of Castile". Aragon and Catalonia were unified for thus nearly 700 years. Their national flags and symbols are also almost identical. The only non-Catalan people to speak Catalan in Spain are Aragonese people in La Franja and in upper Aragon. I proposed a compromise to show how the Aragonese are closest to Catalans, Valencians and Castilians. This is based on the sourced information in this article and those respective articles. "Spaniards" is a modern, Castilian construction that has only been around for about 200 years, and is not an ethnic reality. Many people in "Spaniards" do not identify as such, and are not closely related to most peoples included in this term. Aragonese people are not as close to Basques, Galicians, Andalusians or Extremadurans as they are to Castilians and Catalans. They are specifically closest to Castilians, Catalans and Valencians. I will propose another compromise. 142.118.184.153 (talk) 18:42, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

It's exactly to avoid the damage inflicted by editors like you that I have several of these X people in my watchlist, even though personally I would prefer for all those pages to be erased from WP. It's a pity that anyone thinks that the complexities of regional (or national) identities in Spain, or elsewhere, can be dealt with using gross stereotypes (Castillians is a particularly stupid one) and History books. First-hand knowledge of the question paints a completely different picture to what you think you know.

I'd like to have a little more input form the 3rd opinion, too. --Jotamar (talk) 16:37, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

:::"personally I would prefer for all those pages to be erased from WP." Which pages are you referring to here? The ethnic groups of Spain or all ethnicity articles? If that is your perspective, that is not a helpful one in any case and may present a harmful bias to the project. These are accepted groupings of people based on ethnological criteria like ancestry, culture, behavioural traits, traditions, history, language, physical appearance, genetic heritage, etc. Ethnic groups and populations differ substantially.

:::It would seem you have a perspective that is more of that of a "lumper" than a "splitter", or one that sees Spaniards more of an ethnicity than the distinct regional groups of Spain. That is fine, which is why Spaniards has its own article, as do those who identify as Castilians. But others disagree, and this is well supported by the academic literature available. In the case of this respective dispute, I see no reason why not to include both Spaniards and Catalans under related groups - the Aragonese clearly have strong links to both Castilian Spaniards and Catalans. In the sensitive issue of Catalans, where many do not identify with Spaniards, or identify more with Occitans or Andorrans, it is best to have them mentioned as a separate group. Human Taxonomist (talk) 06:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

My perspective, sir, is that of someone who knows more about the subject at hand than what you could possibly ever learn about it. Your pre-cooked groupings, such as Castilians, make no sense at all here, and seem to be based on ideas that have been discredited since at least World War II. Your unilateral editions have been reverted by one editor in addition to me, and you should know that when there is no consensus in a discussion in WP, you can't impose your point of view in the page, and the stable version dating back many years should be restored (as I'm doing next). Trying to use the current political situation in Catalonia as an argument is simply ludicrous. I must ask you to stop your pointless, stubborn editing in this page, which can only result in a waste of time for both you and me. --Jotamar (talk) 18:33, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

:::::These aren't "pre-cooked" groupings. Castilian language, people and culture emerged well over 1,000 years ago. I didn't invent that culture or people. Castilian nationalism is a real political ideology. Just because a Castilian regional hegemony and imperialistic agenda sought to redefine all of Iberia as "Spain" and "Spanish" under Castilian cultural dominance does not mean other groups ever largely or significantly agreed with such an ideology. The Portuguese managed to maintain their autonomy, by force of arms and Papal assistance, but this does not mean the Basques, Galicians and Catalans did not attempt to as well. What "ideas" are you talking about which were "discredited" since World War II? Classifying ethnicities and populations is part of ethnology and anthropology. Ethnic groups and populations are demarcated by an assortment of genetic, ancestral, cultural and linguistic traits. If anyone is pushing a "World War II" perspective here, it is you with a seemingly Francoist, Spanish nationalist or imperialist ideology attempting to erase the ethnic distinction between groups in Iberia, and deny any identification that sees itself as distinct from such a notion. There was no stable form of the article simply including "Spaniards". Look at the edit history - there were long periods where specific "Spanish" ethnicities were listed as having particularly close ties to Aragonese people. Aragonese have closest links with Castilians, specifically Castilian La Riojans and Castilian Navarrese, as well as to Valencians and Catalans. If you aren't aware of this, then you know little of Spanish history, especially that of the Kingdom of Aragon and Crown of Aragon. :::::I suggest you start learning about the genetic, cultural and linguistic structure between ethnic populations of Iberia from this 2019 study here (note that Aragonese form a distinct cluster, which is closest to Valencians specifically): Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula Human Taxonomist (talk) 09:13, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

My memory betrayed me, the stable version was "Latin peoples". You should also check your Castilian Navarrese. :D - I'll try a compromise edition. --Jotamar (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Human Taxonomist has been CU blocked. Meters (talk) 01:41, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

I've struck through the edits that had replies, deleted the last one that didn't have a reply. Doug Weller talk 19:28, 9 January 2020 (UTC)