Talk:Backpacking (hiking)

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Wilderness

Backpacking doesn't always involve wilderness, so the title is incorrect – any objections to changing it to, say Backpacking (on foot)? Furthermore, there is the question as to what is wilderness. Someone pointed out to me that what was outside a mountain hut high in the Alps was cow pasture! Rwood128 (talk) 11:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I now realise that we (mostly me!) have discussed this before. But I still feel the the title is incorrect. Wilderness is not mentioned in the lead. Rwood128 (talk) 11:16, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably backpacking (travel) is also done on foot (at least somewhat). How about Backpack hiking or Backpack camping? — hike395 (talk) 14:11, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, hike395. Backpack hiking is better, as camping isn't the only form of shelter, though USA usage may be different here. Rwood128 (talk) 16:10, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In the U.S.,

"hiking" means going on foot in natural or wild settings, for any amount of time
"backpacking" generally implies hiking, but for more than one day and setting up a camp. Backpacking means that you carry your own gear
"camping" means setting up a tent or camp and sleeping outdoors
"car camping" implies that the camp is immediately next to a vehicle, no hiking
a "pack trip" means that you ride a horse, or the horse carries your equipment, and then you camp.

And, to make things more confusing, hiking is usually done with a backpack, even if one is not backpacking!

Not sure if this helps. — hike395 (talk) 21:24, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Rwood128: The camping article lists "backpacking" as a form of camping. Given the use of backpacks in hiking, and given that "backpack camping" is not really a common term, I think we should rename this article Backpacking (camping). — hike395 (talk) 21:41, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't associate backpacking necessarily with camping, just carrying a rucsac on my back for more than one day: "the activity of travelling or going camping while carrying your clothes and other things that you need in a backpack" (Cambridge Dictionary). See the lead also. Rwood128 (talk) 01:18, 17 November 2019 (UTC) A synonym for a walking tour; the kind that Wordsworth and Coleridge did. Rwood128 (talk) 01:18, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is hut-to-hut hiking considered backpacking? I would have thought not, but I can see that some people use that terminology. May I suggest changing this article's title to Multi-day hiking? That would be unambiguous, at least. And people commonly say "that is a multi-day hike". — hike395 (talk) 04:19, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that I should do more research on this topic! Differences between the various versions of the English language tend to cause confusion. The fact that the term is also used for non-hikers doesn't helps. According to the Oxford Dictionary the noun backpack is "Chiefly US". Backpacking is generally defined as carrying a backpack. An ngram search for the term "backpacking" gives US examples, plus the odd reference to South American: [[1]

It is interesting that the British store/shop Blacks distinguishes between rucksacks and backpacks: [2]. And I notice that the term "trekking" is becoming a vogue word in Britain for multi-day hikes. Other terms common there are "tour" and "walking holiday". I also see that in Britain the words walk and walking are frequently used whereas hike/hiking are preferred in North America.

It is in effect a specific North American form of multi-day walking/hiking holiday. A former article Trekking was merged with this article. Given all this, hike395, your suggestion to change to Multi-day hiking (or hikes?) sounds good. Rwood128 (talk) 12:57, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that there are chains of accommodation on many long distance paths in Europe, unlike in the Americas is a significant factor here. The term "multi-day hike" appears to be common in Australia and New Zealand. Rwood128 (talk) 13:19, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 November 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to Backpacking (hiking) at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 10:19, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Backpacking (wilderness) → Multi-day hiking –

Current disambiguator (wilderness) is incorrect: backpacking can occur outside of wilderness areas (overly WP:PRECISE)
"Backpacking" is a North American term, "Trekking" and other terms are common elsewhere (WP:COMMONNAME)
"Backpacking" is ambiguous: does it cover hut-to-hut hiking and pack-supported trips? (WP:PRECISION)
"Multi-day hiking" removes the ambiguity: this article covers any multi-day hiking trip
"Multi-day hiking" also is unambiguous with respect to Backpacking (travel), a generic mode of travel
"Multi-day hiking" is a fairly common term in North America, Australia, and New Zealand

— hike395 (talk) 14:38, 17 November 2019 (UTC)—Relisting. Cúchullain ^t/c 18:45, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is this actually known by this name?--69.157.252.96 (talk) 18:54, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. A Google Search returns 198K results for "multi-day hiking" and 290K results for "multi-day hike". Websites that use this terminology include the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, Backpacker Magazine, and Outside Magazine. A number of books use "multi-day hike" or "multi-day hiking". Unfortunately, Google ngrams doesn't work for hyphenated queries, so we can't directly compare to backpacking. — hike395 (talk) 19:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It appears Ngrams do work here: [3] (shows up with extra spaces but is processed the same [4]) – Thjarkur (talk) 20:23, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that! I was trying something fancier (with _INF), which didn't work, but I should have tried a simple test. — hike395 (talk) 03:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I am missing something it appears that the current title had been consistently in far greater use then the proposed one.--69.157.252.96 (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify Hike395's comment, it's true that the phrase "multi-day hike" or "multi-day hiking" appear in the sources mentioned (Appalachian Trail Conservancy, Backpacker Magazine, Outside Magazine), but not to the exclusion of (or even necessarily as often as) other terms, including 'backpacking'. (example of Outside using 'backpacking'). Also, it can be hard to tell whether these sources are using it as a fixed phrase vs. simply composing an adjective and a noun. Colin M (talk) 03:13, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can the six points raised above be addressed not just statistics. The Ngram results for backpacking seem to come mostly from the US; but I only did a quick survey. And the term is generally used for travel backpacking more than hiking. Rwood128 (talk) 12:08, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

re the precision concern: Could you give examples of activities which aren't undertaken in wilderness but which fall under this topic (and not backpacking (travel))? Also, I'd be curious to hear what you or others think about Trekking or Backpacking (hiking) as alternatives. I would find either of these more natural. Colin M (talk) 03:18, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In the United States, one can do backpacking exclusively outside of a wilderness area. For example, the Pacific Crest Trail has many miles that lie outside of wilderness. That was the original objection from Rwood128. Because I'm a United Statesian, "trekking" to me has the connotation a long hike in the Himalaya. But readers from the Commonwealth may find it a general and natural term to use. Trekking is actually more common of a term than backpacking: Google ngram link. This web site claims that trekking is hut-to-hut, while backpacking is self-sufficient. More websites comparing the terms: [5], [6]

Backpacking (hiking) is a bit awkward, but would be ok with me. — hike395 (talk) 08:48, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Trekking also suggests the Himalayas to me, with conatations of an elaborate support system. The phrase "walking/hiking tour" is becoming more common and I also found "Continuous walking holidays" for walking long distance paths (Ramblers walking holidays, UK).

The term used seems to vary with the age and place of origin of the walker/hiker – I'm not a particularly reliable source because I'm a v. ancient, dual British-Canadian citizen, who carries a rucksack not backpack and walks rather than hikes. However, Backpacking (hiking) appears to be a more accurate description of various types of multi-day walks/hikes. Rwood128 (talk) 11:35, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, hike395, Colin M, 69.157.252.96, Þjarkur what now?

This discussion has been open for >7 days, so soon (-ish - RM has had a pretty long backlog recently) someone uninvolved will come along and either close the discussion or relist it to generate more discussion. Not much we can do but wait. Colin M (talk) 00:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Rwood128 (talk) 09:20, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support alternative Backpacking (hiking) suggestion as more clear as to what the article covers.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:19, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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