Talk:Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory

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Frequently asked questions

Q: Why is this presented as a conspiracy theory when the New York Post and others say it is true?

A: The factual reliability of the New York Post has been discussed multiple times by editors, and there is a consensus that it is not a reliable source. The core components of the conspiracy theory have been known to be false since 2016.

Q: Didn't Joe Biden withhold US aid to get Ukrainian President Poroshenko to fire the Prosecutor General?

A: Viktor Shokin was widely regarded as corrupt. There were demands for his removal from within Ukraine as early as June 2015, before any international involvement. The US policy seeking his removal was bipartisan, and the US was joined by the European Union, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. Shokin was removed after an overwhelming vote of the Ukrainian Parliament in March 2016. Extensive investigations showed no evidence of undue influence.

Q: But wasn't Shokin investigating Burisma?

A: No, the entire problem was that he was not investigating Burisma, or multiple other companies. The investigation of Burisma was on hold, and there is evidence that Shokin was pursuing investigations only when the companies refused to pay bribes.

Q: What about Hunter Biden's laptop?

A: The authenticity of the laptop has not been verified. The provenance of the laptop, its contents, and the circumstances of how the laptop came to public scrutiny is questionable. Repair shop owner Mac Isaac, a Trump supporter who passed the laptop to Giuliani and the FBI, was not able to identify Hunter Biden as the person who gave him the laptop. Mac Isaac’s accounts concerning the laptop have been inconsistent and sometimes contradictory. Hunter Biden is unsure whether the laptop is his, but said there could have been a laptop stolen from him, or that it could be that a laptop of his was hacked. No information purported to come from the laptop has implicated Joe Biden in any misconduct. The FBI acquired the devices via a grand jury subpoena in December of 2019, though it was unclear if the seizure related to an investigation of Hunter Biden. The law enforcement assumption is that the laptop is Biden's.

Q: Wasn't Hunter Biden unqualified for the Burisma job?

A: Hunter Biden had experience as a corporate lawyer, as executive vice president of a bank, and in government. He was hired to advise on corporate governance, although he did not have experience with Ukrainian regulatory affairs. It is not a stretch to assume he was hired in part due to his name, but this does not mean nepotism was involved – he was not hired by a family member.

Q: Didn't Hunter Biden have drug and alcohol problems?

A: This is well known and openly acknowledged - Joe Biden even discussed it in the first Presidential debate.

Q: Aren't you representing mainstream media as the truth, when conservative media says a different thing?

A: Editors measure the reliability of sources against a standard set of guidelines, including news organisations. A source's political orientation, liberal or conservative, is not a factor. Editors then aim to give due weight to sources that are known to be reliable, while avoiding giving undue weight to sources that are known to be less reliable (for more information, see WP:WEIGHT). Our policies do not state that extraordinary claims and fringe theories, such as the Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory, need to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity (see WP:VALID).

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On 14 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Joe Biden–Viktor Shokin–Burisma conspiracy theory. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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Clear bias in language

Several portions of this article have very clear bias in word usage, it’s clear this is not neutral and clearly propaganda.

example: John Solomon portion is only consists of cheap attacks that fit the narrative to dismiss his work. Why did the people working in this page fail to include his work that provides evidence that Ukraine indeed was facing extortion from Biden, in relation to his son, and falsely attributed this to Shokin being corrupt. Actual documents and fact prove Solomon’s reporting accurate I will be adding this to the article if no credible objections

source: https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/eu-memo-directly-undercuts-joe-bidens-narrative-about HammerofFacts (talk) 15:04, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well there's your problem: you believe John Solomon. He lied to all of us, but you still believe him.[1] – Muboshgu (talk) 15:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reality has a well-known liberal bias. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Meeting an accusation of bias with an admission of it - even if flippant - is not appropriate. MWFwiki (talk) 20:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Bidens’ Influence Peddling Timeline

“Committee’s subpoenas to date reveal that the Bidens and their associates have received over $20 million in payments from foreign entities.”

https://oversight.house.gov/the-bidens-influence-peddling-timeline/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.183.106 (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

11 year pardon

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c99x07ny8lro

I think it's worth highlighting that the pardon provided was for 11 years when it's covered by mainstream sources as well as a point of debate. 87.212.120.73 (talk) 16:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There’s literally video of Joe saying it

https://youtube.com/X3A4qPMS8R4?si=r8J7odow1trLhdpr

the first sentence of the article is false, he literally admits to the exact accusation on video using almost the same words as the article’s first sentence

Article should be changed to reflect this 2601:644:4881:BEB0:FD33:2574:6F37:9458 (talk) 03:10, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You have misinterpreted that video without the proper context. See the FAQ at the top of this page. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:11, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those FAQs show clear editorial bias, both in the framing of the questions and the construction of the answers. Look at the second FAQ, which supposedly addresses the commenter's question:

1. **Framing of the Question:**

The questions are written in a way that inherently conveys skepticism toward the premise. For example, instead of neutrally asking, *"Did Joe Biden withhold US aid to get Ukrainian President Poroshenko to fire the Prosecutor General?"*, the editors use the negatively framed *"Didn't Joe Biden withhold..."*. This rhetorical structure dismisses the question before engaging with it, creating an impression of bias.

2. **Failure to Answer Directly:**

The yes-or-no question is not answered in a yes-or-no manner. A direct and factual response would begin with, *"Yes, Joe Biden did withhold US aid..."*. Instead, the answer redirects attention elsewhere, potentially obscuring the central point.

3. **Misrepresentation of Shokin’s Reputation:**

Instead of answering the FAQ, it launches into the claim that Viktor Shokin was "widely regarded as corrupt". This narrative only emerged *after* the controversy surfaced, with anonymous actors within the Obama/Biden administration accusing Shokin of corruption. Were one to look at actual contemporaneous evidence, they'd see a very different picture. For instance, the **2015 European Commission Report** evaluated Ukraine's progress on anti-corruption reforms, specifically citing that the "anti-corruption benchmark is deemed to have been achieved" during Shokin's tenure. Here is the full report for reference: https://justthenews.com/sites/default/files/2023-09/EU-SixthReportUkraineVisaLiberalization.pdf

Fx6893 (talk) 00:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You used AI to write that.

Justthenews.com is John Solomon (political commentator), who's work on this has been discredited.[2] I'm not further rehashing what we have rehashed here for years. It's in the archives. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and one of Solomon's key sources just pled guilty to lying about it. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:35, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead and the section on Smirnov need to be updated.

Currently the lead, referring to the allegations of Alexander Smirnov, includes this passage: "A confidential informant told the FBI that Burisma's owner said he was coerced to pay bribes to both Bidens to ensure Shokin was fired, though the informant was indicted in 2024 on charges he had fabricated the account."

That informant, Smirnov, has now (Dec. 2024) pleaded guilty. The lead and the "Bribery allegation" section should be updated accordingly. Here's one relevant link:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckgnl7qdvjno

I also think the lead should include the note about Smirnov getting his false information from Russian intelligence officials (which is mentioned in the "Bribery allegation" section). That seems like a very important point. NME Frigate (talk) 05:12, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this page needs to be updated with Smirov's plea. If someone doesn't get to it before I do, I'll add it. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, here's the AP News report about the guilty plea:

https://apnews.com/article/alexander-smirnov-guilty-plea-biden-informant-fbi-62a3b7acce0345303f812ca6d0206b10

which is also archived here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20241219205823/https://apnews.com/article/alexander-smirnov-guilty-plea-biden-informant-fbi-62a3b7acce0345303f812ca6d0206b10 70.95.164.137 (talk) 22:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fake News from Wikipedia

WP:FORUM TarnishedPath^talk 03:26, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Even with video of POTUS Biden bragging about his bribery. He shows he is above the law. Further illustrated by cleansing his son's last 11 years of any laws broken or that would have been found to be broken. I hope this can be challenged in court.

This must be corrected: "The Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory is a series of false allegations that Joe Biden, while he was vice president of the United States, improperly withheld a loan guarantee and took a bribe to pressure Ukraine into firing prosecutor general Viktor Shokin to prevent a corruption investigation of Ukrainian gas company Burisma and to protect his son, Hunter Biden, who was on the Burisma board.

Video link (CSPAN): https://www.c-span.org/clip/campaign-2018/user-clip-biden-tells-story-of-getting-the-ukraine-prosecutor-fired/4820105 152.130.15.108 (talk) 15:53, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The rest of this very article explains why what you've written here is a misreading of what Joe Biden said. For example, right in the second paragraph of this article, there's this:

"Joe Biden followed State Department intentions when he withheld the loan guarantee to pressure Ukraine into removing the prosecutor who was seen as corrupt and failing to clean up Ukrainian corruption, in accordance with the official and bipartisan policy of the United States, the European Union, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. A confidential informant told the FBI that Burisma's owner said he was coerced to pay bribes to both Bidens to ensure Shokin was fired, though the informant was indicted in 2024 on charges he had fabricated the account."

(And as noted above, that confidential informant, Alexander Smirnov, has now pleaded guilty.) NME Frigate (talk) 16:59, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article's premise has been changed multiple times by the editors in an shell game to obscure the Bidens' corruption. This article, as originally written, clearly stated: "The conspiracy theory asserts that Hunter Biden was paid a large sum of money by a Ukrainian firm, Burisma Holdings, to take a job for which he was unqualified, as a means for Burisma to influence then-vice president Joe Biden, who then extorted Ukraine for $1 billion to fire a prosecutor so as to prevent Hunter Biden from being investigated for corruption."[3] All of this has since been shown to be true.

However, the editors don't like it when their pet "conspiracy theory" turns out to be factual, so they've gone back multiple times to alter the definition of the theory to something that they feel they *can* disprove, such as claiming it involves bribes from the Ukrainians directly to Joe Biden - which were never suggested in the original. It's revisionist propaganda, like erasing political enemies from historical photographs. And sadly, that's what Wikipedia has been reduced to, and I wish we were better than that. Fx6893 (talk) 02:09, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing of what you wrote is true, except that a previous edit from four years ago says what you say it says. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:32, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Seems there was and is wrong doing according to report

https://www.congress.gov/event/118th-congress/house-event/115597/text 2603:3015:1CE9:100:846E:B618:7FF4:5F59 (talk) 18:33, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The provided link opens a transcript of a hearing and not a report. A transcript is a WP:PRIMARY source subject to the Wikipedia policies outlined in the link. Legislative hearings typically involve unfiltered partisan accusations that may not be firmly grounded in fact, so it is typically more encyclopedic to use a quality WP:SECONDARY source that analyzes the hearing. Carguychris (talk) 18:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]