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Talk:Buk (drum)

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Photo

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The drum depicted in the photo is not a buk. It's some other kind of drum. I think a buk has laced heads, not tacked, and there aren't paintings on a buk's skin. Badagnani 03:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've done some checking and it seems that the indigenous Korean term buk can simply mean drum (equivalent to Sino-Korean go). However, the term doesn't usually seem to be used in reference to the drums used in court music like the jwago, etc. The most commonly found buk are the samul buk (used for samulnori) and the pansori buk (used for pansori), neither of which have painted heads. Both are viewable here: http://www.ureuk.or.kr/htm/musical08.php So it would probably be best to use one of these two to represent buk for this article. Many of the other drums (strangely, not including any drum called buk) are also viewable here: http://www.ureuk.or.kr/htm/musical08.php Badagnani 04:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Misunderstanding

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The editor who wished to add all Korean drums in this article is misunderstanding; in the English language buk refers to a specific variety of Korean barrel drum (the buk, used in pansori, pungmul, and a couple of other genres), while in the Korean language the term buk may also be used as a generic term to refer to all of the dozens of varieties of traditional Korean drums (including hourglass drums like the janggu, and many others). If all drums are to be described, the title Korean drums should be used; this article is about the specific instrument called buk, which is a barrel drum. See [1]. Including all Korean drums under an article entitled "Buk" would be like adding every type of brass instrument and saxophone under Horn (instrument), just because in English, the term "horn" can also be used to refer to any brass instrument or saxophone (see Horn section). Badagnani (talk) 19:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No it is not. I read a "reliable source" which tells buk encompasses all types of buk in Korean traditional music. Use google translation. Besides, why have you not tried to taiko at Japanese drums? You're totally wrong.--Caspian blue (talk) 19:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you wish to create an article on 북 ("Buk") at the Korean Wikipedia that encompasses all drums, you are free to do that. However, we are the English-language Wikipedia, and in English the term buk refers to the Korean traditional barrel drum, that is used in various forms in pansori, pungmul, and a few other genres. An article encompassing all Korean drums at the English-language Wikipedia would be entitled Korean drums. Badagnani (talk) 20:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've just realized that you've repeatedly removed information about the various types of buk used in pansori and pungmul, and their names; why did you do that? Badagnani (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? Diff.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As explained earlier, in the English language, buk refers to a barrel drum used in pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other traditional Korean genres. The article mentioned these, and gave the names of these instruments. A few minutes ago, you removed this information repeatedly. Badagnani (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So provide citations like English dictionaries or encyclopedias to back your claim. That would be saving our time. I already provided my source. The one that you provides is only backing my claim.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The NCKTPA source is below. It describes several types of buk, the names of which you have inexplicably removed from the article several times. Badagnani (talk) 20:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rather, you removed all added info to prevent from becoming a good encyclopedic article, I don't. Diff please. Your lies already are pointed out by your source. I'm very tired of your repeated false accusations at this time again.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly moderate your tone? The NCKTPA source defines the term buk and mentions several names of sub-varieties of buk, which you removed repeatedly earlier today. Kindly restore them to the article, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs, or do not falsely accuse me any more. That act is a personal attack. You initiate such uncontructive behaviors. Please look upon yourself. I do not have any time to make the article unencyclopedic in order to please you. Find sources. Thanks--~~ --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Caspian blue (talk • contribs)

You removed the names of two sub-varieties of the buk in this edit. Would you kindly re-add them? Badagnani (talk) 21:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No thanks. If I or you would do, that would be the fourth revert. I do not risk for such tiny matter. You can add it after 24 hours. Do it yourself. --Caspian blue (talk) 21:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please be specific why you felt it important to remove the names of the sub-varieties of buk? Badagnani (talk) 21:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you are so eager to include them, go ahead. I could not stop your move. That would be your fourth revert for sure. Your suggestion is nothing but like you make me violate 3RR. Stop nonsense.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly moderate your tone? Could you please be specific why you felt it important to remove the names of the sub-varieties of buk? Badagnani (talk) 21:35, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is taiko not at Japanese drums?

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Currently, Japanese drums redirects to taiko. Badagnani, can you tell me why the non-English term is titled for the article which holds every drums used for Japanese traditional music? If you successfully finish the possible WP:RM on the article, well, you have a ground for WP:ENGLISH on this article. Thanks--Caspian blue (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the situation (as explained earlier): buk in the English language refers specifically to a barrel drum used in pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres of traditional Korean music. In the Korean language, however, it can also be a generic term referring to all drums, the way "horn" in English refers to the French horn, but may also be used to refer to trumpets, trombones, and saxophones. This is why discussing the actual barrel drum buk at this article is most appropriate. In Japan, the term "taiko," though drawn from the Sino-Japanese "big drum," has come to be used as a generic term referring to all traditional drums--but, unlike in Korean music, there is no specifically identifiable instrument by the name of taiko, by size and shape, the way there definitely is in Korean music for the buk. So the two terms, and their usage, are not comparable in this case. Badagnani (talk) 20:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any citation to justify your claim. Provide sources, reliable ones. Well, according to taiko, you're wrong. That has specific types by size and shape, the way. Just same usages as buk.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Ncktpa, EncyKorea

According to your provided link, I'm right, you're wrong.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct in stating that the buk, in English, refers to a Korean barrel-shaped drum, which is used in various forms (whose names you just removed several times from the article), in pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres. However, you added to this article (which is about the barrel drum called buk) all Korean drums, including those that are not barrel-shaped: including hourglass-shaped drums, drums on handles, drums on poles, etc. While all those types of drum may be referred to in the Korean language as "buk" (much as saxophones, trumpets, and trombones may be called "horns" in the English language), it's much better to discuss the actual buk (barrel-shaped traditional Korean drum) in an article entitled Buk (drum). Badagnani (talk) 20:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you can not insist WP:Original research or WP:Synthesis on the article. Provides reliable sources. That would save your time.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The NCKTPA is the primary institution in the world preserving and documenting traditional Korean music. The NCKTPA link explaining the various types of buk (which you removed several times earlier today) is provided just below. Badagnani (talk) 20:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did not you say that buk only refers to a drum used for pansori, pungmul-nori in English speaking world? --Caspian blue (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not certain if you have experience studying or playing Korean traditional music. In the English language, the term buk is understood to refer to a barrel-shaped drum used to accompany pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres. Each variety of buk, each of which is used in its own genre (which you removed repeatedly earlier today) looks a little different, perhaps a little larger or smaller, or with a little thinner or thicker wooden body, a little thinner or thicker skins, or different lacing. However, more or less they all look quite similar. Other traditional Korean drums, of other shapes, have their own names, and, while they may all be referred to as buk in the Korean language (the way, in English, trumpets, trombones, and saxophones may be referred to as "horns"), it's much clearer if we follow the terminology used by traditional Korean musicians (and the NCKTPA). If a buk is being referred to and described, the term buk is used. If Korean drums are being referred to, the term "Korean drums" is used, to avoid confusion with the barrel drum called buk. If the janggo is being referred to, it's called janggo. The source confirms this. Please restore the article to its accurate version, describing the actual buk. Badagnani (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I only stick to "sources" unlike you. Are you saying that you're studying Korean traditional music? Well, then you would find "reliable sources for sure. Until you provide your sources, this discussion is totally meaningless. The Korean encycloedia confirms that Janggu is one of buk.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly moderate your tone? You are correct that, in the Korean language, the broad definition of the term 북 (buk) is "drum"--the way, in English, the term "horn" can be broadly used to refer not only to the French horn but also to the trumpet, trombone, or saxophone. However, in an encyclopedia in the English language, an article on the buk would necessarily describe the specific Korean barrel drum called buk, which is used in pansori, samulnori, pungmul, and a few other genres. In English, buk is understood as this barrel drum, while other instruments such as the jwago, janggo, etc. have their own names. The NCKTPA, which is recognized as the foremost institution in the world preserving and documenting Korean music and instruments, has a website explaining the identity, construction, and nomenclature of the Korean instrument called buk. The source may be found here. Thus, it's important, now, that you restore the article to its formerly accurate state, describing the actual instrument called buk in English, and also restore the text you removed repeatedly, which provided the names of the various types of buk (the one used for pansori, the one used for pungmul, etc.). Thanks for this consideration. Badagnani (talk) 21:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Either provide "reliable sources", or accept the cited info which you don't like to face.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I may understand your implication, are you stating that the NCKTPA and its webpages (such as this source, which clearly defines and explains the Korean drum called buk and the genres in which it is used) are not to be trusted in matters related to traditional Korean music? Badagnani (talk) 21:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're totally misunderstanding my wording. The site omits a lot of info to just show brief info for people. Besides, your insistence already turns out to be false. (so where are sources from English speaking world?)--Caspian blue (talk) 21:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All the available sources define the buk the same way the NCKTPA does. Sources include http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:18q7ZHP5ZRcJ:www.korea.net/pda/newsView.asp%3Fserial_no%3D20080205009%26part%3D115+"barrel+drum"+buk&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=36&gl=us and [2]. Both sources, and all others, make it clear that the buk is a specific type of drum (namely, a barrel drum) and the janggo, alongside which the buk is used in samulnori, is yet another type of drum (namely, an hourglass drum). Badagnani (talk) 21:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Source providing the identity of buk

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The NCKTPA, as all Koreans know, is the primary institution preserving Korean music. It gives the identity of the instrument called buk as a barrel drum. See this NCKTPA source. However, drums on handles, drums on sticks, hourglass drums, and many others, have been added to this article without prior discussion and against this source's evidence. As we have many editors for whom English is not a first language, it perhaps needs to be clarified that a barrel drum is a drum that is constructed in the shape of a barrel. Just because, in the Korean language, the term buk may be used as a generic term to refer to all drums (the way "horn" may be used in English to refer to trumpets, trombones, and saxophones) does not mean that buk refers to all Korean drums in English. It's much better to describe the actual Korean instrument called buk (a barrel drum, used in a few genres, and described in the NCKTPA link), and describe all Korean drums at an article entitled Korean drums, to avoid any possible confusion that may arise. Badagnani (talk) 20:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When two barrels are combined to one, that is shaped like a "hour-glass" of janggu. My source does not specifically limit buk as "barrel-shaped drum". Besides, the NCKTPA provides only limited brief info. Unlike your allegation, buk is not only referred to as a specific drum used for pansori, pungmul nori, samul nori. Your sources only confirms my argument. If you want to move the article to Korean drums, you still need reliable sources to back your claim. Find one.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hourglass drum is not a type of barrel drum, despite your fanciful speculation. The buk is a barrel-shaped drum used to accompany pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres. Kindly restore the article to its previous (accurate) condition and restore the various types of buk you removed earlier, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What did I tell you? You're wrong on every claim. If you wish to risk yourself to contain incorrect info and violate our 3RR policy, feel free so. I don't risk my wiki-life for the false info on behalf of you.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please be specific. Could you also avoid commenting in a threatening manner? Badagnani (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're the one trying me to violate 3RR per your insistence. If I revert one more time, you know I would violate 3RR. Why would I do such dumb thing for you? If you want to violate 3RR, go ahead. Besides, you keep making false accusations against me. Such behaviors are all personal attacks. Be careful. Unless you're provide reliable sources for your claims that buk is only used for pansori, pungmul nori, samul nori, this discussion is totally waste of my time. -Caspian blue (talk) 20:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly moderate your tone, and be more specific? The NCKTPA is the world's most authoritative institution on traditional Korean music and musical instruments, and the source verifying what the buk is has already been provided (yet you repeatedly removed text listing the various types of buk from the article). The buk is used primarily for the three genres you mention; those would be the primary genres for which it is used, although it may be found in other genres. However, for many other related genres (such as sanjo) the janggu is used, as the buk is a louder and more forceful instrument. Badagnani (talk) 20:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I already presented my sources and gave you a change to read my source unlike you. Besides, your repeated false accusations, and requesting impossible ones are all insulting to me. Find sources, what a simple request by me? :)--Caspian blue (talk) 21:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly moderate your tone, and be specific? The NCKTPA source is provided just above, and it is very clear in its definition of the instrument buk (and its sub-types, whose names you removed repeatedly from the article earlier today). Thanks for your consideration, Badagnani (talk) 21:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Provide sources or put up with the cited info

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My suggestion is so simple. Badagnani, do not make me waste of my time. If I were you, I would try to find sources to back my every claim. You're currently resorting to appeal to authority and other unpleasant matters. I do not waste my time further here as long as you're repeating the same "insistence without any sources". The 국립국악원 only confirms my claim is right. I'm pretty sure that I'll be watching the article's change for the next day. Thanks.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly moderate your tone? The NCKTPA source is very clear about the definition of the Korean drum called buk. Badagnani (talk) 21:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would you stop making nonsense and personal attacks? Find sources from English speaking world as you allege.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would you kindly moderate your tone, and be specific about why you believe the source from the NCKTPA (acknowledged as the foremost institution in the world preserving and documenting Korean traditional music and musical instruments) to be incorrect in its definition of the Korean musical instrument called buk? Badagnani (talk) 21:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians

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If I'm correct, the dictionary is regarded a very reliable reference on musicology, but I don't see any actual page number, and "quote". It is also available via online (subscription required though). Therefore, I'm so wondering why Badagnani does not provide such weblink or page number. He again reduced the article unilaterally, as completely removing all contents that deal with other types of buk. If he fails to provide the necessary information, and "quote" (yes, i want to see the exact quotation to make sure), well, I am afraid to think that we can face the same situation again as Seolleongtang which once had bogus citations inserted by him and false info in wikitionary, and unrelated bare google result. Please provide the info. If he fails to provide such required info, his allegation has no merit to keep at this status (also you removed my reliable citation).--04:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

It would probably be a copyvio to quote the entire paragraph, but, yes, it's available online. The online version does not provide page numbers. I'll add the link. Regarding direct quotes, in this case, it just wasn't appropriate to quote directly from the source, but better to simply draw on the source, paraphrasing the basic description of the instrument. Badagnani (talk) 05:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quoting is not a copyvio, so you need to quote the info with a quotation box. You quoted a lot of time, so well the ratinale seems odd. I would ask my friend to check on it but that would take 2 or 3 days. Frankly speaking, I could not trust you per your history, so please quote the necessary info.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, it just wasn't appropriate to quote directly from the source to describe this musical instrument. However, the text in the WP article accurately reflects the source (which confirms, in greater detail, the NCKTPA source described above several times). Badagnani (talk) 05:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, it is very appropriate to quote directly from the source to describe this musical instrument. Read WP:QUOTE. Just you know some editor was blocked for his bogus citations for a DYK nom yesterday. If you keep denying to provide the necessary info, well, your credibility would be very thin at this time. No, NCKTPA is only referring brief information.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both sources confirm that buk is a Korean term meaning "drum," but that in a musical context the term is used to refer to the specific barrel drum (in its various forms) currently described in the article. It is becoming increasingly disruptive and problematic that you now seem to be claiming that I am misrepresenting these two highly regarded sources (the New Grove Dictionary and the NCKTPA, which are quite accurate in their description of this instrument). Badagnani (talk) 05:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You first denounced my reliable citations written by experts and blanked it. Rather you've been behaving very disruptively and your claim that buk "only referring to the specific types of drum for pansori, and samul nori in English speaking world turns out to be false. The NCKTA only confirms my claim, not yours. I'm telling the truth and the current situation.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You provided the Korean dictionary definition, which states that buk means "drum." It does, in the Korean language. However, in Korean music there is an enormous profusion of drums--perhaps more than in any other East Asian culture--each with its own name. Thus, to avoid confusion, as the NCKTPA source confirms, the term buk, as used by musicians and in English-language sources on Korean music, is usually used to refer to the specific barrel-shaped drum called buk, which is used in several genres (pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few others). Similarly, the English term "horn" may be used to refer to the French horn, but also to the trumpet, trombone, or saxophones, but we don't discuss all those instruments under "Horn," because they each have their own name. Contrary to your claim just above, the WP article as currently written reflects both the NCKTPA and Grove Dictionary sources quite accurately. Also contrary to your statement just above, English-language sources about Korean music do in fact use the term buk to refer to the barrel drum described in this article, and use other names, such as janggu, to refer to other Korean drums of different shapes. Badagnani (talk) 05:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such description "as used by musicians and in English-language sources (you once said English language world) on Korean music, is usually used to refer to the specific barrel-shaped drum called buk, which is used in several genres (pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few others)." This is going to be original research again. In context, hmm? Where are evidences? Unless you publish a book or thesis on Korean buk, and then your claim would have some merit, but no. According to your rationale, the Grove only seems to mention about what buk means. You also fail to provide the necessary information for your claim. Why are you so reluctant to provide the quotation? You have been quoting directly from sources including non-free book sources. Until you provide the quotation, well, you can't repeat the same insistence. --Caspian blue (talk) 05:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The New Grove should be in most good libraries, and the database is available online. Presenting the entire text would involve a copyvio. However, it's cited properly and the WP article accurately reflects its information. It confirms, in a bit more detail, what the already-cited NCKTPA source states about the buk. Badagnani (talk) 05:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In most good libraries? Well how would you know where I'm living? The NCKTA only confirms my claim, so you don't have any ground that the term is exclusively used for buk in pansori, samulnori in English-speaking world. You can't blindly revert the article to push your POV and OR.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:58, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most good libraries have a set of the New Grove. Regarding the term buk, as the article states, in the Korean language it is used as a generic term meaning "drum," much as the term "horn" may refer to the French horn, but also other brass wind instruments such as the trumpet, trombone, or saxophone. However, because there are so many traditional drums used in traditional Korean music, as both the New Grove and NCKTPA sources state, the term buk is typically used to refer specifically to the shallow barrel-shaped drum used in pansori, samulnori, pungmul, and a few other genres; other traditional Korean drums have their own names, such as the janggu, and are referred to by these specific names, nearly all of Sino-Korean origin, unlike the buk. The two sources, which are the most reputable available, do bear this out. Badagnani (talk) 06:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you still fail to provide the quote? You already accessed the source, so it is quite amusing to deny providing the necessary info for confirmation. As for the comparison of the western instrument with the Korean buk, if your claim is cited info, I will look into it. But you're still resorting OR. You blanked the chunk of information. You're the one to bear the change. Buk encompasses all drums in Korean traditional music and you don't want to accept the truth and citation. The NCKTPA is not from English speaking world as you allege according to sources. Please don't continue the disruptive behaviors.--Caspian blue (talk) 06:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would you kindly moderate your tone? Badagnani (talk) 06:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is the sentence your catch-praise along with "massive blanking by..." whenever you're against somebody's edit and opinion?--Caspian blue (talk) 06:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://tiny.britannica.co.kr/bol/topic.asp?article_id=b10b1272b My another citation (Korean Britannica) confirms my claim only.--Caspian blue (talk) 06:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Large amounts of text about Korean drums other than the buk that were migrated into this article from Traditional Korean musical instruments a day or so ago were removed, just as text about various sizes of saxophone would be removed from the article "Horn." Regarding the source whose link is provided just above, it is an article in Korean about drums, and uses the name buk (the generic Korean word meaning "drum"). However, the specific barrel drum known to musicians, music listeners, and music scholars as buk is correctly identified as a buk. The NCKTPA and New Grove Dictionary remain the most prominent sources on this very specific subject, and they are properly cited and utilized in this article. Badagnani (talk) 06:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No way, you're repeating the same absurd insistence. You massively blanked out the info related to "buk. If you're so sure about your stance, email to NCKTPA. You know encycloedias are written by experts, academics, and professors, and you still denounce the Korean encyclopedias. I'm pretty sure that your refusal to see the information are very unhelpful to develop the article. --Caspian blue (talk) 06:35, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given your wrong info on tungso, I really don't see what you have in mind.--Caspian blue (talk) 06:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, many Korean general interest encyclopedias are quite good. However, in this case, the NCKTPA and New Grove sources (two of the foremost authorities in this case, on traditional Korean music and musical instruments) are quite clear, and properly and quite accurately cited. Large amounts of information about other Korean drums other than buk that were migrated a day or so ago from Traditional Korean musical instruments were removed because this article is about the Korean drum called buk, not about other drums such as janggu, etc. Badagnani (talk) 06:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New text

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The new text added in this edit would be appropriate for an article entitled Korean drums, but not for an article about the buk, a specific type of Korean barrel drum used in just a few genres (including pansori, samulnori, and a few others). There is a reason for this: although in the Korean language, buk is a generic term simply meaning "drum" (as the English term "horn" may be used to refer not just to the French horn but also to other brass wind instruments such as the trumpet, trombone, or saxophones), most often to avoid confusion, Korean traditional musicians, music listeners, and scholars use buk to refer to the barrel drum called buk; and use names such as janggo, galgo, etc. to refer to other traditional Korean drums. So, this addition is based on a misunderstanding that, also in the English language, buk simply means "Korean drum." That is not the case; in English-language sources dealing with Korean music (as already presented in the article), buk refers to the barrel drum used in pansori, samulnori, and a few other genres. This misunderstanding is compounded by the fact that in the list of drums migrated from Traditional Korean musical instruments, the buk was actually selectively removed, in a highly inappropriate manner. To avoid confusion, please move the new text added in this edit to Korean drums, or leave it in Traditional Korean musical instruments. Badagnani (talk) 18:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I requested 3rd opinion to people who can read Korean, so wait for the input. If you blindly revert my edit one more time again, I will seek proper actions from administrators. You have not provided any reliable sources for your claim that the term is only referring to barrel drum used in pansori, samulnori in English speaking world. Do not repeat the same insistence without backing sources. Besides, you have not provided a correct answer for Japanese taiko which deals with every drums used for Japanese music (even the opening sentence says as such). You're the one who misunderstands the purpose of the article and subject, and do not make the article filed with your original research. You're also contesting to top-rated Korean musicologist's knowledge on the subject. --Caspian blue (talk) 18:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note Just you know, we were reverting the article three times on the other day, so if you keep massively blanking the related info without proper reason, well, I also would not sit to watch it and edit warring would be continued. Then, even if you or I would not revert 4 times, we would be likely wound up to 3RR board together by somebody who watches this. You know edit warring can be a good ground for blocking editors without even violation of 3RR. I hope such bad result would not happen.--Caspian blue (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the situation with taiko is different (as explained above), because there is no specific Japanese drum simply called taiko, as there is a specific drum called buk in Korean music (the barrel drum used in pansori, samulnori, and a few other genres). Also, contrary to your implication, sources have in fact been provided, from the NCKTPA and the New Grove Dictionary, which are two of the top authorities on this subject. They confirm the previous version of the page, stating that the term buk is generally used to refer to a specific barrel drum used in pansori, samulnori, and a few other genres. Your removal of buk from the bulleted list of instruments, as mentioned above, was highly inappropriate. Finally, it is true that, in the Korean language, there may be sources describing all Korean drums under the heading buk, but this is a usage similar to the English "horn" (which refers to the French horn, but which may also refer to other brass wind instruments such as the trumpet, trombone, or saxophones). This is simply a misunderstanding caused by linguistic differences: editors whose first language is Korean presuming that if "buk" means "drum" in Korean, this article should discuss all Korean drums. However, according to the NCKTPA and the New Grove Dictionary, the term buk is usually used by traditional Korean musicians, listeners, and scholars to refer to the specific barrel drum called buk, while other Korean drums with other shapes and playing techniques have their own names. Information about those other drums belongs at an article entitled Korean drums, while this article should describe the drum called buk, as described quite well in the NCKTPA and New Grove Dictionary sources (which are already presented in the article). Badagnani (talk) 18:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Highly inappropriate behaviors again. You have refused to quote the one source and according to the other source, it is only referring to "specific names", not just buk but "pungmul-buk and "soribuk". Why are you also including "yonggo which does not include "buk" in its name? Well, Japanese drums have other specific names if you look into the taiko again. You're denouncing the Korean musicologist, Jang Sa-hun's knowledge. I really don't see any constructive rationale for your claim. --Caspian blue (talk) 18:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The yonggo was included as a form of buk because the NCKTPA and the New Grove Dictionary say so (along with the pansori buk and pungmul buk, as a variety of buk), due to its similarity in construction and dimensions. Your idea to include all other Korean drums (including the janggo, an hourglass-shaped drum which you had earlier stated that you thought was a sort of barrel-shaped drum) in an article about the buk is a simple linguistic misunderstanding: presuming that if the word means "drum" in Korean, it also means "Korean drum" in English. It does not, according to the NCKTPA and New Grove Dictionary sources, as described above (read through the archives of this discussion page for more details). Badagnani (talk) 18:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're the one misreading your sources and the subject. Read the NCKTPA again, which tells that shape, types are varied according to buk type. The yonggo and soribuk are examples among the various buk. You're the one denouncing the info from "Korean Musicological Society" which is affiliated with NCKTPA, and Seoul National University, Cultural Heritage Administration. Besides, why aren't you still not providing the quote from New Grove Dictionary? --Caspian blue (talk) 19:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, you now agree that the term buk refers to a barrel drum used in pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres of traditional Korean music. Thus, please restore the article to its accurate state, reflecting this, and move other drums with other names, playing techniques, and manners of construction to Korean drums. This is the English-language Wikipedia, and an article on the buk should discuss the instrument called buk, and not all traditional Korean drums (as the NCKTPA and New Grove Dictionary sources, which were already included in the article, state quite clearly. Regarding the New Grove Dictionary article, its content is summarized quite accurately. Presenting a quotation would be inappropriate in this context and providing the full text of the article would be a copyvio. This dictionary may be found in most good libraries, and it is also available online. Badagnani (talk) 19:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do not distort my writing to push your POV. That is disruptive. If you insist that the history section should be moved to Korean drums, this article at buk has no merit to keep because your reasoning for WP:English does not meet soribuk, pungmulbuk and you might create the specific articles. Quoting with a quotation box is not copyvio, you need to read the policy again.--Caspian blue (talk) 19:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would not continue this wasteful discussion with you as long as you denouncing my sources and my understanding of the term. You have to wait for opinion on this, and if you blindly revert to push your POV, I will do what I have to do. Regards.--Caspian blue (talk) 19:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly moderate your tone? In fact, in the English language buk is used to refer to a shallow barrel-shaped drum (and not to the janggu or other Korean drums), as the NCKTPA and New Grove Dictionary sources both confirm; both sources are entitled "Buk" or "Puk." The wish to include information on all traditional Korean drums comes from a linguistic misunderstanding: that if "buk" is a generic term in the Korean language meaning "drum," then it must also refer in English to all Korean drums. It doesn't; the term is usually used to refer to the shallow barrel-shaped drum used in pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres. The sources you have added are excellent, but immaterial: the Akhak Gwebom is written in hanja so refers primarily to drums of Chinese origin, and not the indigenous Korean buk, while the Jang source is in the Korean language, and uses the term buk as a heading to discuss Korean drums. However, as the NCKTPA and New Grove Dictionary sources explain quite clearly, the term buk is generally used to refer to the specific shallow barrel drum used in pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres. Other drums with other names should be discussed at Korean drums. Badagnani (talk) 19:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you think that kimchi is used instead of Korean pickles in English speaking world? And why is ggakdugi, radish kimchi also included in the kimchi article? That is a distinct variety of kimchi and has not affixed or prefixed with the term "kimchi. Why Japanese taiko is not at Japanese drums? Your reasoning based on your belief without citations by scholars are nothing but you're misleading the article to your original research. I'm referring to Korean top rated experts, and you're denouncing the sources, and my understanding of the term and subject. You don't read Korean, and have inserted wrong info to not only Korean music, but also to countless Korean related articles, so how would you be so sure of the linguistic "misunderstanding"? Do not insist on the same thing. Wait 3rd opinions. I'm done with your same persistent arguments without actual quotations.--Caspian blue (talk) 19:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The NCKTPA is the foremost institution in the world preserving and documenting Korean music and musical instruments. Its source states that the buk is a shallow barrel drum used in pansori, samulnori, and pungmul. The NCKTPA also has a page on the janggu, another type of drum that is not called buk except in the Korean language, where "buk" simply means "drum." The confusion arises due to a linguistic misunderstanding. An editor whose first language is Korean may presume that, since "buk" simply means "drum" in Korean, that it also refers to all Korean drums in English. However, as the NCKTPA and New Grove Dictionary sources bear out, the term buk is most often applied to a specific barrel drum used in the aforementioned genres. To avoid confusion for our readers, the buk article at Wikipedia should follow the NCKTPA's and New Grove Dictionary's usage and describe the barrel drum buk, while Korean drums or Traditional Korean musical instruments may document all the other forms of Korean drums that have names other than buk. The WP article entitled Taiko is not entitled "Japanese drums" because "taiko" is an English word with a well-understood meaning, and because, unlike in Korea, there is no specific instrument that is called "taiko." The term "taiko" is Sino-Japanese and originally meant "big drum," but today can refer to any type of Japanese drum. However, as mentioned above, unlike in Korea there is no specific type of Japanese drum that is just called "taiko." Thus, this example isn't directly comparable. I see that much of User:Caspian blue's editing has to do with a sort of cultural "fight" between Korean and Japanese culture, but in this instance such an injection of inter-nation rivalry is simply inappropriate. Badagnani (talk) 19:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Badagnani (talk · contribs), stop making the disruptive personal attacks. You can't even read Korean, and have introduced countless original research and false info to articles, so I have had to fix your such wrongdoings all the time. This user even has been wikistalking my every step related Korean related article. The user always conflicts with every editors from various countires because of the user's highly inappropriate habits and editing. The user has been asked not to edit Korean related articles by many Korean editors because of his past disruptions. I have been only against any original research, wrong info, POV edits unlike the user. Editors should stick to sources, and if he can't bear this core Wiki principle, Wikipedia is not for him. Any similar cultural aspect should be dealt within articles if necessary, and the user has been an enthusiastic pan-Asianism, so the contrary object to the neighboring country's instrument is quite absurd. The user just can not accept the qualified information written by Korean scholars.--Caspian blue (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly moderate your tone? Badagnani (talk) 19:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is that your another catchy praise along with "massive blanking"? (ironically in this case, you're pertinent to the latter case)--Caspian blue (talk) 20:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Taikon is not an English term at all according to a random google result and dictionary.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:27, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct that "taikon" is not an English word. However, taiko is an English word as much as sitar, balalaika, or mbira. Badagnani (talk) 20:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard of such "English words" (maybe in your "own" unpublished English dictionary). You only know the terms just like ume (my friends call the fruit just "plum").--Caspian blue (talk) 20:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You may also explain that why these instruments with "daiko" are mentioned within the taiko
  • Shime-daiko
  • Byou-uchi daiko
  • Tsukushime-daiko
  • nagado-daiko
  • Tsukeshime-daiko
  • nodaiko
  • uchiwa-daiko
  • hira-daiko
  • o-daiko
  • tsuri-daiko
Hanja has been used as honorific usage in place for pure native Korean language, so go is nothing but referring to buk in hanja. When people read "鼓" in Korean, they always say like "buk, go". I don't understand about your objection to include all Korean drums at this article.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I can explain this. In English, Japanese drums are called "taiko." In Japanese, drums are also called "taiko," but if a vowel precedes the "t" of "taiko," the "t" is changed to a "d." If that's not already mentioned in the Taiko article, it should be. The reason this article describes the Korean drum called buk is because the NCKTPA and the New Grove Dictionary describe the Korean drum called buk very clearly; these sources had already been provided in the article, yet another user chose to add all Korean drums in this article. Those other drums belong at Korean drums, while this article, to avoid confusion, describes the actual Korean drum called buk. Badagnani (talk) 21:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view?

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Caspian Blue asked at my talk page here to take a look at the discussion and see if I can help reach a good outcome. I'm willing to give it a try, if that's acceptable to Badagnani as well. Please let me know! (Caspian Blue mentioned my ability to read Korean - in the interest of full disclosure, I can read Korean only at a basic level). --Amble (talk) 04:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to Britannica Korea Buk refers generally to all types of Korean drums. Teemeah 편지 (letter) 07:51, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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