Talk:Bull of Heaven

Bull of Heaven

Originally posted at my talk page:

While I agree that there should be articles related to each topic, redirecting the Bull of Heaven page to Gugalanna's isn't the solution. There should be a disambiguation page instead, as the band have been becoming widely known among online music geeks and critics for years, while very few, respectively, have even heard the term Bull of Heaven used to refer to the Sumerian god. Additionally, not many of the young (or even older!) people I know have even heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Furthermore, the band's article has something like 15 (16?) references, while Gugalanna has four. I refer you to Wikipedia's guidelines on disambiguation. The fact that something predates something else, even by thousands of years, does not alone establish it as PRIMARYTOPIC. Lagopodous (talk) 19:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Nope. With due respect for you and your friends' own culture, Wikipedia establishes WP:PRIMARYTOPIC by using WP:RELIABLESOURCES. This is not even close.

Every single mention (out of 400) at Google Books is about the Sumerian god. Every single mention (out of 800+) at Google Scholar is about the Sumerian god. Gilgamesh is required reading at most school systems at some point in a student's life. While I'm not going to argue the band is so unnotable that its page should be deleted, there is no question here. The redirect points to the Bull of Heaven (which is the Sumerian god) and the band gets a hatnote dab. (Just out of curiosity, where did you think they had gotten the name?) — LlywelynII 01:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

It's actually the case that Bull of Heaven is the ENGLISH COMMONNAME of GUD-AN-NA and that entire article should be moved here (with the hatnote dab to the band), but I'm kinda busy at the moment so I'll leave that to another editor. — LlywelynII 01:35, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Since you're so curious, from my previous comments it's abundantly clear that I know where they got their name. Learn to read. Again, ask most teenagers and even college kids who Bull of Heaven are, and a fair handful will know of the band, while the great majority (apart from literature and theology majors) will have no idea what else you'd be referring to. I merely proposed a disambiguation page, while your response drips of pseudo-academic fealty and bile. Get real. There is no consensus here. Lagopodous (talk) 07:48, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

ask most teenagers and even college kids who Bull of Heaven are

Totally irrelevant for Wikipedia. And also, false: In last fm they have 2.387 listeners and 142,5K scrobblings. Underground groups that I listen have more listeners and scrobblings than them. Jakeukalane (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bull of Heaven/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 15:26, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Comments follow soon. I should be able to finish during the weekend. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:26, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

• In the lead: In Tablet VI of the standard Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh, the goddess Ishtar demands the Bull of Heaven from her father Anu after Gilgamesh repudiates her sexual advances – Without knowing the story, I was a bit at a loss. I would add why Ishtar wanted the bull, what the purpose was. So far, the lead only tells us that Isthar gets the bull, and Gilgamesh slays it (but, again, why do they slay it?).

I have now revised this passage. --Katolophyromai (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• When first mentioning Enkidu, I would briefly introduce him. Maybe one word would suffice, such as "companion", "god" or "hero", whatever is the case.

Done. --Katolophyromai (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• I would also clarify that Inanna and Isthar are different names for the same goddess.

I have added mention of this the first time I use the name "Ishtar." --Katolophyromai (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• If Uruk is the location of the butcher, maybe mention this when stating that Gilgamesh is fighting it.

Done. --Katolophyromai (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• I would consider adding to the lead that there are two versions of the myth, the Summerian and the Akkadian. Seems to be an important central point, and might help to avoid confusion (the lead contains the Akkadian version, but the text starts with the Summerian, without further explanation).

I have now done this. I originally left the Sumerian version out because it is less complete than the version in the Epic of Gilgamesh and I did not wish to confuse the readers by throwing two different versions of the story at them right in the first paragraph. Nonetheless, I see what you are saying and I now think that it will probably be less confusing to explain that there are multiple versions right from the beginning rather than telling one version and introducing the other later. --Katolophyromai (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• On account of Enkidu's impiety against Ishtar, the gods condemn him to death. – This is different to the version offered in Gilgamesh, where it is stated that the reason for his death is that they had slain the bull, and not because they affronted Isthar.

Different, yes, but not necessarily contradictory. Enkidu's description of his dream is ambiguous regarding why the gods choose Enkidu over Gilgamesh. It merely says that Enki speaks to Enlil and says that Enkidu must die because Gilgamesh must not die. Many scholars assume that Enkidu's act of impiety towards Ishtar may be the reason why he is chosen to die over Gilgamesh. --Katolophyromai (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Hm, but I wonder if the article says "On account of Enkidu's impiety against Ishtar", the reader must assume that this is what the original source states? If the source does not actually state this, wouldn't it be better to make that clear (e.g., add a "possibly", ideally providing both interpretations)? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:43, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

I have changed the text to say that the gods condemn Enkidu to death for the slaying of the Bull. --Katolophyromai (talk) 21:31, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• the scene in which Ishtar comes before Anu to demand the Bull of Heaven after being rejected by Gilgamesh is directly paralleled by a scene from Book V of the Iliad.[21] In the Epic of Gilgamesh, Ishtar cries to her mother Antu, but is mildly rebuked by Anu. – This detail of the story (she cries to her mother Antu) could have been mentioned under "mythology" already. I think it would really improve comprehensibility, as the mythology gives the full story in chronological order, so it is much easier to understand how this detail relates to the story. I'm still not sure myself: Is she rebuked before demanding the Bull, or while demanding the Bull? I see this info also does not appear in the more complete mythology in the Gilgamesh article itself, I wonder why.

I have added the mention of Antu to the main "Mythology" section. The mention of her in the epic is very brief, which is why I did not include it originally. I checked the epic and it does not actually specifically say anything about Ishtar "crying," but she certainly does complain, so I have substituted the word "complain" in the place of the word "cry." The part about the rebuttal from Anu is after she demands the Bull and it is actually already mentioned in the "Mythology" section: "Anu at first objects to Ishtar's demand, insisting that the Bull of Heaven is so destructive that its release would result in seven years of famine." You probably just did not catch that is what the "mildly rebuked by Anu" part was referring to. Also, this correspondence is found in the Gilgamesh article in the "In antiquity" section, which talks about the influence of the Epic of Gilgamesh on the Homeric poems. --Katolophyromai (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

• That is all I can say, an interesting piece! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 11:53, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack: I have now replied to all your comments above and made whatever changes you recommended. --Katolophyromai (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the fixes, looks really good now. One little follow-up question above. Will promote soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:43, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack: I have now replied to your comment above. --Katolophyromai (talk) 21:31, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Is this image of the Bull of Heaven?

In the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh uses a knife to slay the Bull of Heaven. No such knife is present in the image shown. He is also with his friend Enkidu, and in other representations of the slaying Enkidu is normally present. Additionally, given Ancient Mesopotamian artistic conventions, it is unlikely that a legendary hero like Gilgamesh would be naked. Finally, there is nothing "heavenly" about this bull. The Epic of Gilgamesh is clear that the Bull of Heaven is different from other bulls. Nothing about this image suggests that. I posit that this image depicts Lahmu, "the hairy one" - he is often depicted naked, typically has exactly six prominent hair curls (as is visible in this image), and was known to sometimes kill regular, unheavenly bulls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.226.214.252 (talk) 22:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)