Talk:Challah

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I propose to merge pain petri into Challah, at Challah#Similar breads. I don't believe that pain petri is independently notable. Two of the sources are blogs, which are not reliable sources, one is a recipe book which can hardly be considered to create notability for every foodstuff contained in it, and the same goes for the recipe on WaPo - while normally an excellent source, this is a recipe for pain petri, not an article about pain petri. I can find nothing else to establish the notability of pain petri. I considered proposing for deletion, but there is some decent content and a merge seems like a better WP:ATD, and this seems like the most realistic target. Hug^syrup 16:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

I believe I have established that Pain Petri is independently notable, as I have cited numerous sources included The Washington Post, “Quiches, Kugels and Couscous” by Joan Nathan, as well as a number of other websites. Pain Petri is not the same bread as challah, they are different shapes and are made in a completely different manner. Challah is also eaten by Moroccan Jews, it is made much in the same way as Ashkenazi challah, where it is made with a dough very different than pain petri (less eggs, oil, etc), and it is left to rise and Kneaded for a much longer period of time the Pain Petri, which is unique and notable for the short duration of the rise and preparation time (60 minutes from start to finish). They are completely different breads, I have already included 5 different sources, which is much more than enough to demonstrate notability, and I can add many more in English, French, Hebrew and Darija. I appreciate your input and your time. However, if you think these two totally different breads should be merged, then why do we not merge sourdough bread and white bread together? Why is it only the Jewish breads that must be minimalized and removed?Yallayallaletsgo (talk) 18:37, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

I am certainly open to not doing the merger, but in that case I think proposing the article for deletion is the best approach, and I was looking for an alternative to that. Regarding other breads, I have not read either of the sourdough or white bread articles but I would suggest you read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I sincerely hope your last line is not implying an antisemitic motive here, but it certainly comes across that way so you’ll have to excuse me if I take considerable offence to that, and choose not to engage with you further. I await input from other editors, and if a merger does not seem the way forward then I will go back to my previous intention of nominating the article for deletion. Hug^syrup 19:34, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Against. I was merely posing a question, and I am sorry that you took offense to that. Likewise, i take offense to this baseless merge or delete request. Nominate it for deletion if you wish. I have added even more references for this bread, I believe approximately 10 different references are there now, including but not limited to:

Three books which discuss Pain Petri at length, one of which (The Encyclopedia of Jewish Food) is a highly notable encyclopedic book that is frequently used on Wikipedia to demonstrate notability for an article: •The Encyclopedia of Jewish Food- by Rabbi Gil Marks •The Jewish Holiday Cookbook- by Joan Nathan •Quiches, Kugels, and Couscous: My Search for Jewish Cooking in France- by Joan Nathan

A number of notable websites also discuss this bread including, but not limited to:

•The Washington Post •The Mercury News •The Jewish Ledger

I have also cited a number of other websites which discuss this bread, as well as the website "Benzaken Descendants" which is mainted by members of the Moroccan Jewish community of Rabat, who now reside in France.

The independent notability of pain petri has been well established. The long list of notable, high-quality citations referencing this bread show this. Therefore, the article should not be (and very likely will not be) deleted. It should also not be merged, as it would add undue length to this article, as the Pain Petri article is 8,008 bytes/characters, almost 50% the size of the entire challah article. As I am a professional chef/baker in my spare time, I am intending on Baking Pain Petri and adding photos of it to the article, which will add more length. The article to too long to merge into challah, and it is an entirely different bread. The challah article needs an entry for Sephardic Challah, which is a separate bread from Pain Petri. This should not be merged or deleted, and I think this is an irrational, frivolous waste of everyone's time here when there are much more important things that can be done than delete a heavily referenced article.Yallayallaletsgo (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

• Opposed to merger, since Challah is a well-known name for a Shabbat bread in itself, without the need to add some other less-familiar name. If there is similar bread called by a different name, perhaps the article on such bread should clarify the origin of its name and where (which country) it is principally found, as in the case of Pain petri, which name did not seem to gain popularity outside of Morocco, besides having a different make-up in its basic ingreients (spices, etc.). Pain petri seems to be local varity of Shabbat bread, warranting its own separate article.Davidbena (talk) 12:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
• OPPOSE because they are two entirely different things. One is in Sefardi Judaism culture the other is part of Ashkenazi Judaism culture. IZAK (talk) 14:45, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Word meaning and origins

Sigh. I had to majorly edit this section because of a number of egregious errors made be previous editors. 1) Artscroll is not a source, it's a publishing project by Masorah Publications. Even if you want to use one of its volumes, say which one! Don't just say "Artscroll says." 2) Rashi's translation of Challah is not a "word origin," it's a translation. And you don't need Artscroll (any of its books) to tell you what the French word means. 3) There was no mention of the Biblical Hebrew meaning of the word, which is likely where the modern meaning comes from!! 4) Mistakes in the explanation of the mitzvah of challah. Braiding is not part of that process. 5) Shaarei Aharon? What, did this editor just learn something in yeshiva and decide to edit a Wiki article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ari1891adler (talk • contribs) 15:16, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia :) Ar2332 (talk) 06:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Series of minor edits and meaning of DUBIOUS tag

I made a series of minor edits to the Challah page in order to reflect its tone as more of a "Shabbat Bread" page. Potentially, we might want to look in to creating a "Shabbat Bread" page in order to categorize the different Shabbat breads used across different cultures such as pain petri or challah.

The meaning for the DUBIOUS tag is that the Apter Rav's belief that shlissel challah is some ancient Kabbalist tradition from Israel is utterly ludicrous. Modern Kabbalah is based in the Zohar, which is a book rationally believed to have been written by a spanish-portuguese author originating in the middle ages, with information completely different and often contradictory to Jewish tradition. As such the Zohar and modern Kabbalah are not to be considered as concrete historic evidence, but rather as spiritual or religious beliefs that are most likely no older than a couple hundred years. As such the cited source is heavily biased and based in falsehood, which is highly misleading and even inaccurate.

I made the DUBIOUS tag there because I am unsure of how to proceed. The information is relevant to Ashkenazi Jewish belief and culture, which is obviously relevant on a page mostly about an Ashkenazi religious bread. I do not want to outright remove the information as it is relevant, however I want it to be noted that shlissel challah is not an ancient bread of Israel (because obviously other Jewish cultures would have it, which they absolutely did not, and if they do practice this tradition, it is mostly due to the merging of Jewish cultures in the State of Israel). The inclusion of the disclaimer at the end of the section that it probably came from Christian tradition is welcome in this, maybe this should be used in a different way to show that the Apter Rav's belief is baseless. --Cakiva (talk) 15:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Your comment has numerous problems.

• 1: The date of authorship of the zohar is irrelevant. Kabbalah is a field of Jewish thought mainly based on the Zohar, but a the Alter rav's explanation here is not intended to be 'sourced from' the Zohar, it is simply a proposed explanation for a widespread custom which can be true even separate from Kabbalistic thought. Even if it was sourced from the Zohar, the possibility of the explanation remains equally valid. Again, it is merely a suggestion. The Alter Rav's statement that it is an ancient custom is his personal testimony on the matter separate from any proposed explanations for the custom.
• 2. The fact that other Jew cultures (i.e. Sephardic) do not have this custom is mostly irrelevant. The custom could have easily been forgotten/discontinued by the Sefardim and other cultures. After all, it is only a custom, not a law.

In light of the above, I see no reason for the dubious tag. The end of the section already includes an opposing view, and the fact that other cultures don't have this custom does not, to me, warrant that tag. I will remove the tag if there is no objection. * JoeJShmo^💌 19:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Tried to clear this up with an edit just now. Heshel doesn't seem to have ever actually said that it's an ancient custom. If he has said it somewhere I missed then I'm inclined to agree that putting it in scare-quotes is enough. Although the argument you're making here pushes me the other way—such a statement would clearly be false and the job of Wikipedia is to accurately indicate that. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll have to take a look at the source later, but the idea that a rabbi's personal testimony on the facts of a religious matter is 'clearly false' seems blatantly off the mark. I'm not sure where we would expect to get better testimony regarding how long a custom had been around in a religious group, besides the religious group themselves, especially their experts on religious matters. To assume the statement would be clearly false with only vague indications to the contrary would be, frankly, ludicrous. Again, this may be irrelevant here if he never said what the article claims he did, but that would be my general assertion. JoeJShmo^💌 22:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Feyesh

Feyesh What is Feyesh? it is a special bread of Ashkenazi Jewish origin the initial name is Challah, Its braided, the top is wide and the bottom is narrow, it is typically eaten on ceremonial occasions such as weddings, Shabbat and major Jewish holidays (other than Passover). it is made of dough from which a small portion has been set aside as an offering. The word Feyesh was created in the 19th century, initially from the Hungarian word "Fej" which translates in English as "head". Mr. Jeno (Yakov) Bineth was the owner and founder of Montreal Kosher Bakery which is located in Montreal Canada, Mr. Bineth was in the bakery business since 1951 when he still lived in Melbourne, Australia. later on he moved to Canada in the City of Montreal and founded Montreal Kosher Bakery which is now owned by his children since his passing. The reason the name Feyesh was given is due to the fact that there was a large variety of different types of Challah, Mr. Bineth wanted an easy way of describing this particular Challah therefore he gave it the name Feyesh which as explained is defined as Head which resembles this Challah roll specifically. A link to Montreal Kosher Bakery http://montrealkosher.ca/ Dovbineth (talk) 05:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

عامر محمد مصعب بكور

١٢٣٤٥٦٧٨٨ 94.252.154.248 (talk) 19:44, 21 April 2023 (UTC)