Talk:Chloe Cole/Archive 3

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Reactions

Firstly, if one reads the "Reactions" section one would get the impression that all rections to her testimony have been negative? I'm no great fan of many of the conservative outlets that have covered this young woman's commentary, but they presumably reacted as much as more critical ones and they are at least as WP:RS as to their own 'reactions' as the sources currently used. This is mainly a WP:WEIGHT matter, rather than a WP:V issue. You cannot name a section 'Reactions' and then only include the critical/sceptical parts of the critical/sceptical reactions.

More specifically, apart from doubts about the 'Slate' claim explored above, why do we have: "The Los Angeles Blade noticed that trans adults on Twitter were critical of Cole's claims. One such criticism was the fact that surgery can take years of planning and preparation and is not done on a whim" Apart from the obvious matter of wondering when anon tweets became 'notable' and 'reliable', the source hardly says this: "Since her emergence on the public scene in April, trans adults have been digging into Cole’s claims. Some note the fact that surgery takes years of planning and preparation and is not done on a whim or under pressure" - The LA Blade then links to a single tweet making the "years of prep" claim. Why is this anyway important? Some tweeters doubt her veracity? So we have to record and amplify tweeter's scepticism, but ignore much else in that source and others. Pincrete (talk) 14:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC) … I don't know how WP:RS this outlet is, but this source specifically quotes an endocrinologist 'debunking' many of the 'doubts' expressed in the Blade article and affirming Cole’s testimony. Pincrete (talk) 15:30, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

CBN is likely not going to be accepted as a WP:RS, however, one might argue that Blade isn't a suitable source for contentious claims on a BLP either. I agree with your opinion regarding the "Reactions" section as well. How can we clean this up and bring in differing viewpoints, do we just have to wait until a source that is considered reliable gives differing perspectives? Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

The sources there include 1) reactions to her specifically 2) RS commenting on her reception in outlets supportive of her. I think you're right we should probably add more, but summarizing a past similar dicussion I had: we can't cite Breitbart for their own opinion on a subject, we have to have a reliable source discussing Breitbart's opinion.

In regards to twitter, that wasn't my wording and you're right it could be cleaned up.

In regards to CBN, past RSN discussions have seemed to find it shouldn't be used for anything controversial. If there are no better sources for "Forbes pulled the article because of factual inaccuracies" than CBN, which sources that to the Daily Wire (of which RSP says There is a strong consensus that The Daily Wire is generally unreliable for factual reporting) we shouldn't include it. Michael Laidlaw, the endocrinologist in question, is a member of the American College of Pediatricians, a profoundly anti-LGBT group known for it's misinformation. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:34, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't proposing that the CBN source be used to counter 'LA Blade' - doing so would only create a "she says - he says" ping-pong about matters of questionable importance. The CBN piece merely adds to the impression that our claim that "trans adults on Twitter were critical of Cole's claims" is hearsay at best. That claim says nothing other than that some people don't believe her, though about what is not really made clear. Is there anything that anyone ever says publicly that isn't questioned by at least one person on social media?

I wouldn't want to use the CBN piece for that purpose, because it isn't worth doing, but since when did an endocrinologist cease to know about medicine because he belongs to the 'wrong' pediatric association? AFAI can see, he was confirming nothing other than that the account of Cole's medical history which is in the public domain is (broadly) accurate. That also isn't a confirmation that we would want to use here, since any claim that Cole was not being truthful should be much better and more clearly sourced than the vague insinuations offered at present. Pincrete (talk) 06:24, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the questionable sentence. A related issue is what is this section for, and is there are better title? "Reception" sections are usually in film, book, event etc articles rather than BLP articles. Pincrete (talk) 14:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Responding to this and this here, so as not to add even more off-topic conversation to the "anti-transgender activism" section.

When it was pointed out that medical organizations by overwhelming consensus agree that gender-affirming care is the right option, you tried to portray a false controversy departing from MEDRS with your comment Medical experts obviously have expertise on medical matters - but even that is not universally accepted iro trans treatments. You yourself sought to discount the views of a qualified endocronologist because he belonged to the 'wrong' medical association.

When another editor told you Laidlaw/ACPeds was fringe, you replied You dismissed Laidlaw as not being reliable iro him having verified Cole's medical history - what she was prescribed and when, ie you thought he was incapable either of being honest or of understanding basic medical records that probably any first year medical student could understand. - I pointed out he is a fringe doctor. Notably, he doesn't verify her medical history and barely comments on what she was perscribed and when.

You initially stated in this section that I don't know how WP:RS this outlet is, but this source specifically quotes an endocrinologist 'debunking' many of the 'doubts' expressed in the Blade article and affirming Cole’s testimony

• The only doubt you'd referred to was: Since her emergence on the public scene in April, trans adults have been digging into Cole’s claims. Some note the fact that surgery takes years of planning and preparation and is not done on a whim or under pressure Laidlaw doesn't mention this point at all...

When I pointed out Laidlaw was part of ACPeds, a FRINGE group, you replied since when did an endocrinologist cease to know about medicine because he belongs to the 'wrong' pediatric association? AFAI can see, he was confirming nothing other than that the account of Cole's medical history which is in the public domain is (broadly) accurate.

• For a start, ACPeds is literally known for misusing or mischaracterizing [scientific research] to advance ACPeds' political agenda
• What Laidlaw directly responds to in the source was Ennis's statement that Endocrinologists generally do not prescribe puberty blockers and testosterone simultaneously; typically, someone would get puberty blockers prior to experiencing puberty, and testosterone would be prescribed thereafter. Cole tweeted that her doctor did not follow the World Professional Association for Transgender Health’s Standards of Care.
• He states My experience in reviewing transitions and detransitions is that the clinicians and other health care providers involved in medical care often do not follow even WPATH’s ill-conceived guidelines, These gender quacks don’t understand basic endocrine physiology and prescribe whatever toxic concoctions they dream up. Unfortunately, young people like Chloe [Cole] pay a heavy price for this experimentation on our youth.
• For reference, in the LA Blade interview, Cole says she was perscribed Lupron at 13 (February 2018) and took it for about a year, followed by testosterone for about 2 years starting a month or so later (the source is unclear whether that was a month after she started Lupron or after she finished it, Reuters confirms it as a few weeks after starting)

So you said he "debunked" criticisms/questions mentioned by Ennis. You referred to a section he didn't even speak on and removed it. What he (a WP:FRINGE doctor) directly spoke on (to the GUNREL daily wire) was Ennis saying puberty blockers and hormones usually aren't prescribed simultaneously - he acknowledged that she was correct according to WPATH's guides, the standard for trans healthcare, then offered his un-evidenced opinion that medical providers often do not follow them. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Biographies of activists don't have "reception" articles, activists aren't performers or musicians. I've removed the heading and distributed the content chronologically. Levivich (talk) 18:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)