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Northern Ireland is a province & Wales, England and Scotland are countries

Northern Ireland is not a country. It is a province. Kbimbatti22 (talk) 01:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This has been extensively discussed on this talk page, including at Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/Archive 4#NI is a "Province". That does not prevent us discussing it again, but please look though the earlier discussions archived at the links at the top of this page. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The previous discussion showed that 3 editors agreed that Northern Ireland is a province with only one editor diagreeing with semingly no research done by this one editor in Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/Archive 4#NI is a "Province". Kbimbatti22 also agrees that NI is a province as do I. That makes 5:1 in favour of Northern Ireland being a province and therefore I would suggest this is clearly a consensus. I will amend the page as such. Please discuss before reverting any edits I make.

See further evidence below

According to the International Standards Organisation (ISO) Northern ireland is a province, whilst Wales, Scotland and England are countries.^[1]

Northern Ireland is also a province and Wales, England and Scotland are countries according to a current version of the UK GOV website.^[2]

Northern Ireland also referred to as province by author on books on Northern Ireland. ^[3]

ThanksTitus Gold (talk) 23:58, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which is ideal but not always achievable), nor is it the result of a vote. Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." (my emphasis). Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:44, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Further to Ghmyrtle's comments, a four comment conversation from nine-and-a-half years ago is not sufficient, nor even close, to demonstrate a current consensus for a significant and possibly controversial change to the lead of a high-traffic article. You'll need to pursue more formal consensus building process to demonstrate a consensus for such a change. Cambial — foliar❧ 14:22, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References from the Northern Ireland article follow.^[4]^[5]^[6]^[7]^[8]

To suggest that we ignore the significant dispute among references and hang our hat on "province" isn't acceptable. FDW777 (talk) 16:23, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

These are all fair comments, which I appreciate. I'm not aware of any dispute among references? With regards to the references, the only two offical references supporting NI as a country are now archived (Prime ministers office & National Office for Statistics.) The ISO and UK.GOV references I have listed are current and show that NI is currently referred to as a province both by the UK governemnt and international community, therefore I propose that NI be referred to as a province based on these two references. Would this be agreeable? Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 18:21, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Constituent countries of the United Kingdom", would be the best descriptive. GoodDay (talk) 00:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We either refer to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as the four countries of the UK or we shouldnt refer to any of them as countries. We can't pick and mix. For many years there has been a relatively stable consensus on this and other articles to use the term countries. It would be totally inappropriate to continue to use the term countries if we are saying 3 rather than 4. Strongly oppose changing the title, or the introduction, or overnight suddenly reducing the number of countries in the UK from 4 to 3 after years of it being worded the way it is across wikipedia. it would make no sense. We should maintain the stable status quo. RWB2020 (talk) 09:17, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I assume Titus Gold didn't read the quotes provided in references #6, 7 and 8 then? FDW777 (talk) 10:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why this is even a discussion. It's not up to us to decide what Northern Ireland (NI) is officially, it is up to the UK Government and the international community. Longstanding terms are irrelevant if they have recently become incorrect and we all know politics change frequently. I do agree that we need to mention that there is unofficial reference to NI as a country, of course. If the official descriptions of the devolved nations are indeed a "pick and mix" of countries and a province then this needs to be respected. I have indeed read references 6,7,8 and all three are unofficial and over 20 years old (two of them written even before the Good Friday Agreement). Again, the only two official and current (non-archived) references are 1 & 2 (UK GOV and the ISO) which both officially refer to NI as a province. Thanks all. Titus Gold (talk) 15:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here is one current example, the Office for National Statistics refer to all 4 parts of the UK as countries, including Northern Ireland and regularly use such descriptions. [1] RWB2020 (talk) 21:22, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is also this from March 2022 on the UK Gov website, where it clearly treats all 4 as countries of the UK and says use consistent country codes, even if the official term for NI on the ISO is currently Province, it doesnt mean Northern Ireland is not regarded as a country by the UK Govt. [2] RWB2020 (talk) 21:36, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This ONS reference is reliable. The second reference is a withdrawn ISO codes list. Current ISO country codes list NI as a province. I would argue that ISO is the worlwide recognised authority on country codes and status.

Titus Gold (talk) Titus Gold (talk) 00:11, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We do not base this strictly on ISO, we have to take into account other sources and factors too. And if we did just go by ISO codes, the top level ISO country code (ISO 3166-1) only exists for the United Kingdom. Not its subdivisions of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Only the UK (as GB) is on the main listing. The definition of country has different meanings to different people, thats why this is a complex area. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all qualify as countries in some ways but not in others. The compromise and agreed stable position that has consensus is for all 4 to be called countries. But the introduction already recognises that its more complex for Northern Ireland, which is why it makes very clear in opening sentence that different terms are used. That seems reasonable. RWB2020 (talk) 07:41, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would oppose any attempts to give Northern Ireland a different description, from England, Scotland & Wales. GoodDay (talk) 15:01, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:GB
^ https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/toponymic-guidelines/toponymic-guidelines-for-map-and-other-editors-united-kingdom-of-great-britain-and-northern-ireland--2/
^ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/30/the-end-northern-ireland-unionists-blame-themselves-dup-sinn-fein
^ "The Countries of the UK". ons.gov.uk. Office for National Statistics (United Kingdom). Archived from the original on 11 May 2015. Retrieved 7 July 2015.
^ "Northern Ireland". Encyclopædia Britannica. Archived from the original on 14 August 2021. Retrieved 11 October 2015.
^ S. Dunn; H. Dawson (2000), An Alphabetical Listing of Word, Name and Place in Northern Ireland and the Living Language of Conflict, Lampeter: Edwin Mellen Press, One specific problem – in both general and particular senses – is to know what to call Northern Ireland itself: in the general sense, it is not a country, or a province, or a state – although some refer to it contemptuously as a statelet: the least controversial word appears to be jurisdiction, but this might change.
^ J. Whyte; G. FitzGerald (1991), Interpreting Northern Ireland, Oxford: Oxford University Press, One problem must be adverted to in writing about Northern Ireland. This is the question of what name to give to the various geographical entities. These names can be controversial, with the choice often revealing one's political preferences. ... some refer to Northern Ireland as a 'province'. That usage can arouse irritation particularly among nationalists, who claim the title 'province' should be properly reserved to the four historic provinces of Ireland-Ulster, Leinster, Munster, and Connacht. If I want to a label to apply to Northern Ireland I shall call it a 'region'. Unionists should find that title as acceptable as 'province': Northern Ireland appears as a region in the regional statistics of the United Kingdom published by the British government.
^ D. Murphy (1979), A Place Apart, London: Penguin Books, Next – what noun is appropriate to Northern Ireland? 'Province' won't do since one-third of the province is on the wrong side of the border. 'State' implies more self-determination than Northern Ireland has ever had and 'country' or 'nation' are blatantly absurd. 'Colony' has overtones that would be resented by both communities and 'statelet' sounds too patronizing, though outsiders might consider it more precise than anything else; so one is left with the unsatisfactory word 'region'.

United Kingdom: state or country

Having attempted, on a couple of occasions, to to change one word in the introduction to this entry, I was charged with bringing this here for wider discussion.

I contend merely that the UK should be referred to as a legal state and not a country. The BBC would seem to agree: "The United Kingdom is a state made up of the historic countries of England, Wales and Scotland, as well as Northern Ireland." (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18023389)

Nowhere in the relevant Act (1800) creating the UK is there any reference to the Union of the two kingdoms forming one country. In fact, the word country is specifically only used in reference to each constituent party.

Given that neither the Great Britain nor UK parliaments had, or have, any sovereignty over certain aspects of Scottish domestic affairs - law, church and education - it might even be arguable whether this Union constitutes a state. Perhaps it should be referred to as a union, much like the European Union.

Please discuss. Steelwool (talk) 01:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Further to this, I have just had someone consult the British National Corpus and there appears to be no instance of sovereign country recorded, other than one in the context of sovereign-country-tory.

The most commmon collocate for both "unitary" and "sovereign" is "state". Steelwool (talk) 02:30, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You seek to make the change to the article because as you stated in the edit summaries you think the UK is not a country. That is a fringe view. The UK is a country as many reliable sources clearly show and it is the long standing agreed consensus on wikipedia, including the UK article itself. This article describes England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as countries, it is there for extremely relevant and necessary to make clear that the UK is itself a country too, otherwise this will mislead and confuse people. I strongly oppose changing the wording which has been stable for a long time. Especially as the reason you sought the change is you think the UK isnt a country, so the entire reason for your edit was because of a fringe view disputed by reliable sources. The status quo and stable version of this article and others related to it should remain. RWB2020 (talk) 09:26, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add. Above you link to a BBC article claiming it backs up your point, and yet what is the very first thing that BBC article says? "United Kingdom country profile", and it also goes on to say in the second paragraph "and the 2016 referendum vote to leave the European Union has raised significant questions about the country's global role." The United Kingdom is a sovereign state and it is a country. All reliable sources back this up. As this article is about countries of the UK, it is essential and relevant to the article to clearly state the UK is a country too. RWB2020 (talk) 09:35, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The United Kingdom is a "country", made up of constituent countries. GoodDay (talk) 00:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

England's lack of a devolved parliament

Perhaps I done it sloppily, so it was reverted. But, I think clarifying that England has no devolved parliament of its own, would be best. Particularly as English matters are once again, not left only in the hands of MPs from England. GoodDay (talk) 23:47, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Question about the history of the use of the term 'Countries' after the Act Of Union 1707

Obviously Wales was still called the Country of Wales after the Laws in Wales Act but after 1707 it was just really a cultural region with a national spirit and the same to England and Scotland whereas Ireland was generally considered a country of its own even after 1800 so when did use of the terms "Constituent Countries" become official in UK law and in the mind of British people? 109.78.207.110 (talk) 11:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Four countries

Is the phrasing "four countries" suitable when Northern Ireland's status is debated? I would perhaps suggest; "consists of three countries,... as well as Northern Ireland, which is variously described as a country, province, etc." or something along those lines. Zilch-nada (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:GB

[2] ttps://www.gov.uk/government/publications/toponymic-guidelines/toponymic-guidelines-for-map-and-other-editors-united-kingdom-of-great-britain-and-northern-ireland--2/

[3] ttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/30/the-end-northern-ireland-unionists-blame-themselves-dup-sinn-fein

[ONS_Countries-4] "The Countries of the UK". ons.gov.uk. Office for National Statistics (United Kingdom). Archived from the original on 11 May 2015. Retrieved 7 July 2015.

[5] "Northern Ireland". Encyclopædia Britannica. Archived from the original on 14 August 2021. Retrieved 11 October 2015.

[alphabeticalNI-6] S. Dunn; H. Dawson (2000), An Alphabetical Listing of Word, Name and Place in Northern Ireland and the Living Language of Conflict, Lampeter: Edwin Mellen Press, One specific problem – in both general and particular senses – is to know what to call Northern Ireland itself: in the general sense, it is not a country, or a province, or a state – although some refer to it contemptuously as a statelet: the least controversial word appears to be jurisdiction, but this might change.

[interpretingNI-7] J. Whyte; G. FitzGerald (1991), Interpreting Northern Ireland, Oxford: Oxford University Press, One problem must be adverted to in writing about Northern Ireland. This is the question of what name to give to the various geographical entities. These names can be controversial, with the choice often revealing one's political preferences. ... some refer to Northern Ireland as a 'province'. That usage can arouse irritation particularly among nationalists, who claim the title 'province' should be properly reserved to the four historic provinces of Ireland-Ulster, Leinster, Munster, and Connacht. If I want to a label to apply to Northern Ireland I shall call it a 'region'. Unionists should find that title as acceptable as 'province': Northern Ireland appears as a region in the regional statistics of the United Kingdom published by the British government.

[placeApart-8] D. Murphy (1979), A Place Apart, London: Penguin Books, Next – what noun is appropriate to Northern Ireland? 'Province' won't do since one-third of the province is on the wrong side of the border. 'State' implies more self-determination than Northern Ireland has ever had and 'country' or 'nation' are blatantly absurd. 'Colony' has overtones that would be resented by both communities and 'statelet' sounds too patronizing, though outsiders might consider it more precise than anything else; so one is left with the unsatisfactory word 'region'.

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