Talk:Cyrus the Great

Conflicting dates for Cyrus II's ascension of the throne and his father's death

please note that:

Cyrus II

• also known as Cyrus the Great
• son of Cambyses I

Cambyses I

• also known as Atradates
• father of Cyrus II

Here's the root of the conflicting dates:

excerpt from Cyrus the Great: "Cyrus the Great succeeded to the throne in 559 BC following his father's death"

excerpt from Cambyses I: "...his original name was Atradates, and he was wounded and later died in the Battle of the Persian Border which he, with his son, fought against Astyages. It occurred in about 551 BC..."

I cannot find any evidence that clears up these conflicting dates. In my mind, there are two outstanding questions:

1. when and in what manner did Cyrus II ascend the throne of the Achaemenid Kingdom?
2. when did Cambyses I / Atradates die?

After researching these topics as thoroughly as possible, my conclusions are:

1. Cyrus II ascended the throne of the Achaemenid Kingdom in 559bce after his father, Cambyses I, abdicated.
2. Cambyses I / Atradates died at the Battle of the Persian Border in 551bce.

Can anyone provide evidence to substantiate or refute these conclusions?

What era style should this article use?

I noticed that it happened quite a few times that people changed the era style of this article from AD/BC to CE/BCE. Per MOS:STYLERET, I think this is something that should be discussed on the talk page. Although I am not at all familiar with this article (I am merely a pending changes reviewer), using the CE/BCE style seems appropriate to me because this article does not have much to do with Christianity. ―JochemvanHees (talk) 21:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Yah, I agree with you. History of Asia^{Want to talk?} 22:31, 30 April 2021 (UTC).

It's not about what religion is present, it's about the wiki MoS which says original style gets used. Wikipedia:Manual of Style very first section says "retaining existing styles". Also, in this article 2 different styles were used. the MoS also says use the same style throughout.

"BC/AD" is not about Christianity so much as it is about long-established use by historians of the Western world. It's completely viable, and it is only in modern times that certain cranks got their ire up about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.44.55 (talk) 08:01, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Cyrus the Great (Persian Drawing).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:38, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Suggest image change

I suggest that the existing image, which is a painting of a winged man from Wallis, be replaced with a photograph taken of the lithograph itself in Pasargad. Sardar ^talk 15:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I also suggest an image change, as it is likely that the figure depicted is inspired by an Assyrian Genius rather than meant to be an actual depiction of Cyrus. CramYourTram (talk) 10:38, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

How did Cyrus get his name if he was originally named Agradates

"Cyrus's father, Cambyses 1st, named him Cyrus after his grandfather, " KJV Isaiah 45 3,4 ---Here it states that God surnamed Cyrus. Verse 4--"I have surnamed thee" God only named 4 people in the scripitures (Cyrus, Issac, Solomon, Josiah-- KJV Companion Bible's sidebar concordance) Although a Persian Cyrus allowed the Temple walls and foundation laid by Nehimiah in Jerusalem.

KJV: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are figures from the biblical Book of Daniel, primarily chapter 3. In the narrative, the three Hebrew men are thrown into a fiery furnace by Nebuchadnezzar II, King of Babylon Cyrus conguered Babylon (as well as Media, Lydia) Cyrus = "possess thou the furnace" (Strongs Concordance, Hebrew dictionary) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.134.101.41 (talk) 13:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think the Bible is really a strong piece of evidence for anything relating to Achaemenid naming customs. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:45, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

The Book of Daniel dates to the 2nd century BCE, about 4 centuries following Cyrus' death. The author makes veiled references to the military campaigns of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but not to the king's death. Suggesting a composition date shortly prior to Antiochus' death in 164 BCE. Nothing in the book is historically reliable, and the fictional Daniel is possibly named after the legendary hero Danel. Danel is also referenced in the Book of Ezekiel. Dimadick (talk) 19:08, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Is the "Bachenheimer" source a forgery?

Came across a blog post, A New Old Persian Forgery, which references this Wikipedia page and claims that the source cited as "Bachenheimer, Avi (2018). Old Persian: Dictionary, Glossary and Concordance. Wiley and Sons. pp. 1–799" is actually a forgery not published by Wiley.

Seems to have been originally added in this edit.

Should it be removed?

--- Wikitiki89 (talk) - 08:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed it. But perhaps something more global needs to be done about it. Not sure how many other pages it's been used on. --- Wikitiki89 (talk) - 08:20, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

@Good catch, see [1] Doug Weller talk 11:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Phoenicia ?

In the section on the Lydian revolt, it says that Harpagus captured "Lycia, Cilicia and Phoenicia" and then continues by saying "using the technique of building earthworks to breach the walls of besieged cities, a method unknown to the Greeks." Now Lycia checks out, but Cilicia and Phoenicia is what bothers me. With Cilicia it’s plausible there were maybe some greeks (?), but I’m very familiar with Herodotus’ account and I know that at least he does not mention Cilicia as being part of the revolt. Plus Cilicia was, if I remember correctly, already a part of the Median Empire so its most likely not filled with Greek city-states Harpagus would have been fighting there.

As to Phoenicia, that’s just impossible, Cyrus hadn’t even conquered Babylon and all its vassals yet. And moreover I thought Harpagus was fighting Greek city-states (the Lydian revolt having already been put down) so while Cilicia is already a bit far off, Phoenicia, in addition to not even being "properly" Persian yet, is completely away from the original region he was fighting in. Moreover the phrase doesn’t even work because according to my understanding the Cilicians (again I could be wrong about this) are not Greek, nor are the Phonenicians; so either way the phrase needs to be reformulated.

Anyway the paragraph is unsourced so I don’t know if what I’m saying is totally wrong and I just don’t have the proper source material, but this phrase just seems a bit unrealistic. Reman Empire (talk) 19:09, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Anyways I just want to make sure I’m not missing out on anything here. I will be replacing Cilicia and Phoenicia with maybe Lycia, Aeolia and Caria. Now again my Only, and I mean Only source here is Herodotus so I’ll be using him as reference. Reman Empire (talk) 19:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Removed for the lead summary, possibly more detailed and/or better sourced than the same content in the article body, can be used there

In the 1970s, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the last Shah of Iran, identified Cyrus' inscriptions on the Cyrus Cylinder as the oldest-known declaration of human rights, and the Cylinder has since been popularized as such. However, this view has also been criticized by some Western historians as a misunderstanding of the Cylinder's generic nature as a traditional statement that ancient monarchs made at the beginning of their reign. 5.173.54.81 (talk) 05:22, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Let's make this puppy a good article!

Lets do this? Arotparaarms (talk) 03:05, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Image changes

@Onusread welcome to Wikipedia! Generally, on major article you want to discuss changes like swapping out the images used on the talk page first, to establish consensus for the changes. Remsense诉 13:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I am sorry, but exactly discussion for what? for adding a picture, any user should discuss with who ? why ? Onusread (talk) 14:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

generally, if you're changing or adding a picture you should explain why, is all. sorry if i've been unclear! Remsense诉 14:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

OK. I get the picture from academic book. i introduce the source in wiki commons. This picture is from french painter which i introduce it in article page. have you another question ? Onusread (talk) 14:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Winged figure at Pasargadae and Cyrus

I have seen many topics suggest an image change. I also support an image change and I want to add that although the caption says that the winged figure at Pasargadae is Cyrus, this is hardly a consensus. Sekunda:

"If the figure represents a mortal, then it should represent Cyrus himself. Such an interpretation seems to be ruled out by the fact that the figure is winged, which can hardly be a mortal attribute. An inscription is known to have once stood above the winged figure in Gate R and is recorded in early drawings of the relief, for example in the Ker Porter engraving reproduced here (Fig. 22.10). It runs “I, Cyrus the King, an Achaemenid”. Below the two lines of Old Persian (at the top) the inscription is repeated in one line of Elamite and then in one line of Babylonian. It was once held that the figure must represent Cyrus because he is labelled with this inscription. It has since been pointed out, however, that the inscription is not unique, either to this doorway or to this particular figure. Two other examples of the same inscription still survive engraved on stone antae at Pasargadae, and two further examples of this same inscription (CMa in Kent’s categorization) are known to have once flanked the south-west portico of Palace S. These inscriptions are now known to have been retrospectively inscribed by Darius at a later date (Stronach 1990). They did not label anything. As far as one can tell they were inscribed on undecorated architectural members and are to be considered “building inscriptions” in the tradition of Mesopotamian building inscriptions of this type. Thus, although the inscription is in the first person, the inscription is to be understood as meaning “I, Cyrus the King, an Achaemenid (built this)”. They can be compared to the trilingual inscription DSc, which runs “I, Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenid” and is preserved in two examples each written on the base of a column. Consequently the inscription cannot be used to support the argument that the winged figure is a portrait of Cyrus himself." https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_World_of_Achaemenid_Persia/DmGJDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=pasargadae%20hmhm&pg=PA268&printsec=frontcover

For this reason we should decide on a new image and in the meantime change the caption to reflect that this may not be Cyrus. Pogenplain (talk) 00:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

To add:

"Yet as most scholars have long since acknowledged, the figure in the relief lacks all Achaemenid kingly attributes, including a scepter or a bow, a long beard, a lotus held in one hand, a royal tiara, or a Persian robe. In addition, it possesses wings, a strictly superhuman attribute. Also, at whatever exact date the trilingual Old Persian, Elamite, and Akkadian CMa inscription was carved above the winged figure (fig. 11), this specific copy was never intended to refer specifically to the figure beneath it. As Nylander has pointed out, the rules of symmetry in Achaemenid art would have dictated that this same inscription was carved in eight separate locations within Gate R, eight further locations in Palace S and in at least two locations in Palace P. In all these circumstances it is close to impossible to suppose that the four-winged figure was ever meant to represent a formal portrait of Cyrus."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43896116 pg. 9

Pogenplain (talk) 03:36, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

towered boats or towed boats?

"building bridges and towered war boats along his side of the river". Did he really build towered boats? Could one of the following readings be intended?

"building bridges, towers, and war boats along his side of the river"

"building bridges and towing war boats along his side of the river"

Since bridges aren't built "alongside of" rivers, the third reading seems the most plausible. If the "towered boat" reading is correct, this rewrite would forestall confusion:

"building bridges and war boats with towers" Mdmi (talk) 12:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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