Talk:Dado Pršo

correct name

By the way. to the person below "serbo-croatian" is not a language, it was introduced as an artificial language to unify the four distinct languages of the people of the former yugoslavia, and rightly so was abolished when the republics broke away and went their seperate ways

The correct name is: "Dado Pršo". Thanks for changing it! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neoneo13 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 8 February 2005

That's a piece of crap. You are totally wrong! The truth is just the opposite to what you're talking above. Serbocroatian is ONE language, which because of some political reasons now has 5 names: croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Montenegrin and Bunjevac. That's a nonsense splitting the language into 5 names, which are 98%-99% identical. SerboCroatian is a recognized language in all the world, no matter what name it wears, everybody knows that when we're talking about 'croatian', we also mean 'serbian' and bosnian'. That is tha fact, and not any meaningless propaganda or any remaints of it can change that fact. Cheers.24.86.110.10 (talk) 05:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually I'm a student from Croatia studying languages at Zagreb's faculty of philosophy and I can assure you that there is no longer such thing as Serbo-Croatian. The reason why it was recognized before was because the Yugoslav academy of arts and science decided to see it that way for purely political reasons. In the same way, today's Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin languages DO exist as separate entities (even though they are very closely related) and are seen as distinct languages in countries which made them their official languages. Since status of a language is not only purely linguistic, but also a sociolinguistic issue, the reasons for making them separate today is strong enough. I suggest you consult Trudgill's short introduction to sociolinguistics, which should be available at any English-language bookstore or library. In conclusion - Serbo-Croatian was a purely politically motivated construct developed in the 1950's, and the languages that we have today are products of political circumstances of the 1990's. The fact that their vocabulary and grammar are very similar to one other has nothing to do with it - but I can also assure you that their differences are bound to grow larger and that Serbian and Croatian are very likely to grow further apart in the years to come.Timbouctou (talk) 13:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

If you are a student in Croatia ... than it is surely wrong :)) You fake history, facts, everything. Did you learn that today's Croatian is Serbian as since 1850. and Vienna's agreement Croats took Serbian language as literal and ever since speak in Serbian. Real Croatian is kept just in parts of Zagorje today. Right :)?

What you are saying is a total nonsense. Firstly, not any sociolinguistic issue can change the fact that Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Bunjevac and Montenegrin are ONE language in all linguistic and other categories, and will stay one and same language. Secondly, NOT SERBOCROATIAN, but today's SEPARATE STANDARDS of it, which are ridiculously treated as 'separate languages' in the countries they're spoken (and nowhere else in the world)- ARE PROUCT OF SICK AND UNNATURAL POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES. That's a fact and not any propaganda from you can change it. And Thirdly, Serbian and Croatian standards of the Central South Slavic Diasystem (or as it is also known as-SerboCroatian Language) ARE NOT GROWING APART, and for your big dissapointment-they will never grow apart. On the contrary, with the obvious collapse of your miserable propaganda of 'separate languages' in the recent years, most of young people in Croatia reject all the stupid neologisms that your dying propaganda has created in 1990's. Major part of the Croatians are, thanks God, normal and cannot be brainwashed by any nationalistic propaganda about the language, which doesn't make any sense. They see the unity of Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Bunjevac and Montenegrin language as a natural thing and accept it as a fact. They hear and watch every day on TV -various programs with a variety of dialects of SerboCroatian, coming from Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Croatia, which is treated as a same language zone. Majority of today's young Croatians sing the songs of the Serbian pop and folk singers and vice versa, also Serbian TV (especially the entertainment one) is widely spread and accepted in Croatia, and watched more than any other TV in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro etc. Also all the other cultural influences within the West Balkans, where Serbia and Croatia both belong are the nonbreakable uniting factor, which will bring the new croatian and serbian generations back together, with a new united language in the near future. Your dividing and hateful propaganda of 'separate languages and nations' will die soon, and the new generations will laugh at its stupidity and nosense. These are the facts of the actual state, everything else is an isolated utopistic phantasy of a brainwashed mind, that exists only in your head and in the heads of a few leftover brainwashed nationalists. Greetings;24.86.116.250 (talk) 18:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, since linguistics as a science doesn't really have clear lines separating "languages" from "dialects", the sociolinguistic factor does turn out to be quite important in granting either status to any variety of language. In other words, if people living in Croatia/Serbia/Bosnia seem to regard their own languages as distinctly Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian, then those languages should be (and in fact, already are) seen as separate languages, regardless of the many similarities they have (You might want to look up something about the Macedonian language for an example where it's the other way round - Macedonians claiming and classifying it as a distinct language, while most Bulgarian scholars see it as just a dialect of Bulgarian, since they are too mutually intelligible). Secondly, Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian ARE treated as separate languages in these countries, as well as in the rest of the world, with many universities around the world offering programs for students wishing to study Croatian, not Serbo-Croatian. Thirdly, these languages are bound to get official statuses as distinct languages throughout the European Union once the Croatian negotiations on joining the EU are finished (there have been some suggestions that ex-Yugoslav states should be listed as speaking one language to reduce bureaucracy, but these ideas haven's really seen a lot of support from either Croatia or Serbia). Lastly, these languages ARE and WILL CONTINUE to grow apart precisely because of differing standards being enforced with the purpose to make them more distinct, on all sides of the borders. It's just a fact of life, regardless what you may feel about it. I'm not really a big fan of imposing neologisms, which has been practiced widely in the 1990s - but it's also a fact that while many of them simply died away, numerous others survived and are growing in popularity (for instance, when i went to primary school in Zagreb in the 1980s, we called our homeworks domaća zadaća. Today schoolchildren in Croatia call it domaći uradak, while in Serbia it's domaći rad. There are countless examples of this, and whether you like it or not, those children cannot and will not revert to what was spoken before the 1990s simply because things like domaća zadaća were never part of their vocabulary in the first place. As for the genesis of Serbo-Croatian, it really was a unifying standard created out of political motives, just as the differing standards of today were also politically motivated. Politics and linguistics are very tightly related in the Balkans and anyone who spent any time living here can tell you that. As for the whole "brainwashed propaganda yadda yadda" it's basically a mix of bullshit and wishful thinking. It's nice of you to see such a bright future for young Croats and Serbs - but it really has nothing to do with what has actually been going on language-wise in these areas for the last 15 years or so. Timbouctou (talk) 18:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You can repeat your lies for thousand times if you want, but it won't change the facts that Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian is, and will always be - ONE language. The examples of the type you mention above are ridiculous and shallow because all those 'differences' are on a level of DIALECTS, and they are present in all today's languages inbetween theirown dialects. By your 'logic' Americans speak 'American language', because they go to 'ELEVATOR', but Englishmen speak English language because they go to the 'LIFT'. Those are 2 totally different words for a same thing. That's insane, pathetic and ridiculous, carrying a hidden hatred agenda behind itself. This shows how miserable is your unsuccessful and dirty cro-nationalistic propaganda, which is luckily coming to an end. You have absolutelly no arguments of what you're presenting on this page, the truth is totally different and obviously it's making you more and more frustrated. Nobody will buy your propaganda anymore, as it's an obvoius scam, HA, HA. Why don't you face the truth and accept it like all the world accepts it or why don't you start living in reality instead of your isolated pathetic world? And again, the truth is: -NO MATTER what the few of you and your dying propaganda presents on this page, - Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian (and now Bunjevac and Montenegrin) speaches are GENETICALLY one language, also they are STRUCTURALLY, SYNTAXICALLY and GRAMMATCALLY 98-99% IDENTICAL, they are getting more and more united and the world will treat them, like always- as a SAME LANGUAGE. Remember that Time is not on your side and it will never be on your side again. Time is on the side on the TRUTH and you're doing nothing good to yourself ignoring that fact. And FOR YOU BIG MISFORTUNE, now and in the time to come- there will be more and more uniting cultural happenings between the same speaking area of Serbia, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Croatia and Montenegro. The latest uniting show 'OPERACIJA TRIUMF', a copy of 'American Idol', is going to happen in the end of September, it will broadcast from Serbia and will go on TV's in SERBIA/CROATIA/BOSNIA/MONTENEGRO. It will be lead by famous showmen from Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia, and the numerous contestants are going to sing in ONE COMMON LANGUAGE FOR ALL THESE COUNTRIES, and that is SERBOCROATIAN or SERBIAN/BOSNAIN/CROATIAN. Those are the latest facts of what I am presenting here, and that's the truth. As for Bulgarian and Macedonian, today those are separate languages, and that fact is accepted by all institutions in the world. They don't have to do anything with the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin/Bunjevac language and any connection of these two above with the SerboCroatian speaking area is PATHETIC and totally out of mind. Those are the facts and there's no need to discuss more about this topic, because it's stupid to repeat the facts on and on. Greetings.24.86.116.250 (talk) 02:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Ha, ha, here's one more freshest prove and a link to the article, where they write about the Croatian writer Mirko Kovac receiving the 2008 prize for the BEST CONTEMPORARY NOVEL IN THE SERBOCROATIAN SPEAKING AREA, or the area of BOSNIA, CROATIA, SERBIA and MONTENEGRO. The prize is given every year in Tuzla, Bosnia, and there are competitors from all SerboCroatian speaking area. This is only one of the MILLION FACTS that confirm the UNITY of the Serbian/Bosnian/Croatian or SERBOCROATIAN LANGUAGE, with its growing number every next day. The truth is slowly, but surely coming out to the surface. It's killing you and fact is that you and your failed propaganda are going to the history, forever. P.S. The article is in SerboCroatian, enjoy: http://www.blic.co.yu/kultura.php?id=55969

Greetings.24.86.116.250 (talk) 05:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Even though this is obviously a waste of time since the person leaving these comments has no linguistics arguments whatsoever and bases all their assumptions on just repeating I'm lying and similar garbage comments, I'll just copy/paste what Wikipedia (yeah, the site we're on at the moment) has to say about Serbo-Croatian:

"With the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, its languages followed suit and Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian became separate standards (Ausbausprachen). Currently, there is a movement to create a Montenegrin language, separate from Serbian. Conversely, the complex term "Serbo-Croatian" declined in use, first from official documents and gradually from linguistic literature. Today, use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial due to history, politics, and the variable meanings of the word language. Linguists are divided on questions regarding whether the use of the name should be deprecated. It is still used, for lack of a more succinct alternative, to denote the "daughter" languages as a collectivity."

"Except during the period that extended roughly from the 1920s through the 1980s, people have not called the language Serbo-Croatian, but have tended to use their ethnic/national names. Most Bosniaks refer to their language as Bosnian. Most Croats refer to their language as Croatian. Most Serbs refer to their language as Serbian. Most Montenegrins refer to their language as Montenegrin. The International Organization for Standardization (ISO) has specified different Universal Decimal Classification (UDC) numbers for Croatian (UDC 862, abbreviation hr) and Serbian (UDC 861, abbreviation sr), while the cover term Serbo-Croatian is used to refer to the combination of original signs (UDC 861/862, abbreviation sh). Furthermore, the ISO 639 standard designates the Bosnian language with the abbreviations bos and bs. The majority of mainstream Serbian linguists consider Serbian and Croatian to be one language, that is used to be called Serbo-Croatian (srpskohrvatski)/ Croato-Serbian (hrvatskosrpski). A minority of Serbian linguists are of the opinion that Serbo-Croatian did exist, but has, in the meantime, dissolved. Before 1900 and also now, a minority agree that a "Serbo-Croatian" language has never existed and that this term designates a Croatian variant of the Serbian language. The majority of Croatian linguists think that there was never anything like a unified Serbo-Croatian language, but two different standard languages that overlapped sometime in the course of history. Also, they claim that the language has never dissolved, since there was never a Serbo-Croatian standard language. A minority of Croatian linguists deny that the Croatian standard language is based on the neo-Shtokavian dialect."

As for your examples concerning British and American standards of English - yeah, if the American Congress passed a bill saying that the official language in USA is "American", and if their linguistics could present a linguistically supported case for the separation from the British standard, then yeah - American and English would then be considered as two closely related, but separate, languages. And the situation is exactly like that in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro and Bosnia today. Should we expect yet another flooding of upper cased insults coming from your general direction? Timbouctou (talk) 20:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

No matter the trash you're continuing to write, the truth is that wikipedia HAS ACCEPTED SerboCroatian as a language, along with all the politically created 'languages' from it, such as 'croatian, 'serbian', 'bosnian', etc. As far as the American language is concerned, I don't think the Americans are that much COO COO as the cro-nationalists, to pass bills of theirown language, eventhough American and British version of English language are really quite different, much more different than the 'serbian' and croatian' variants of SerboCroatian language. To see how much differ 'serbian' from 'croatian', there is a BIG article at wikipedia, where a same text is compared in both versions. The result is that they are more than 97% IDENTICAL, and there are just 3-4 words that are different, but in reality those words are actually SYNONIMS and can be used in both versions. WITH THIS FACT (which is killing you), it can be comfortably said that 'serbian' and 'croatian' variants of SerboCroatian language are actually 100% SAME and there's NO DIFFERENCE between them! Considering the fact that you don't know anything about Central South Slavic or SerboCroatian language, and your obvious tendencies to spread your defeated cro-nationalistic propaganda of hatred and separation on these pages, you had better stop doing it, because this is a place where normal people meet to discuss about the topics and nobody needs your trash here, on the pages of wikipedia. Greetings.24.86.116.250 (talk) 06:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is, it's neither up to you (an idiot that obviously never lived in former Yugoslavia) nor any other wikipedian to make these judgmements. It's a matter of what the official governing bodies of language say. The Croatian constitution (section 12) explicitly states that the official language of the country is CROATIAN. As for Serbia, the SERBIAN language is a designated as the official language of Serbia and Montenegro (after the constitution was changed in the late 1990's and after it replaced "Serbo-Croatian". In fact there is no country in the world that calls their language Serbo-Croatian, and it is today used as a linguistic umbrella term for all the dialects in this region. I'm sure your Canadian IP address perhaps makes you an expert on South Slavic languages, but leave the peoples in this part of the world the right to differentiate their languages the way they see fit. Timbouctou (talk) 13:11, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, you can say whatever you want, but an idiot can be only you, not me. Have I lived in former Yugoslavia or not, that's out of topic now. The fact is that whatever the Central South Slavic speaking countries of the Former Yugoslavia call their 'languages' or dialects, it's just for their INNER use, not for the outside world. The world recognizes and accepts the fact that it's just ONE LANGUAGE with a few different names. Greetings.24.86.116.250 (talk) 04:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC) The fact is that Serbian and Croatian are just 2 accents of a same language, known as Serbo-Croat, which is spoken in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia&Hercegovina and Montenegro. Even the kids in kindergarden know this. Who cannot see this fact is a moron, and whoever doesn't want to see this fact is one of the last brainwashed idiots, whose collapsed croatian nationalistic propaganda is dying every next day, slowly and surely as the newborn Yugosphere takes over damaged minds and returns back the reason between the Serbo-Croatian speaking people. Zivili!207.216.132.111 (talk) 03:55, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

regarding the first name

Dado Pršo had his name officially changed.

65.92.174.168 wrote: rv. exactly which part of that guideline didn't the opening section meet!? every single footy bio on Wiki starts in exact same manner - full name, widely used nickname in qoutes (if any), DOB, POB

However, Miladin is not actually his full name as advertized by himself. He only uses Dado, so his original name obviously became secondary.

Somehow I feel that you would benefit from reading sr:Разговор:Дадо Пршо. --Joy [shallot] 23:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

What are you trying to tell me? That Prso's full name isn't Miladin anymore simply because he mostly goes by his nickname Dado. Going by your logic, I guess Robert "is not actually Robbie Fowler's full name" because he only uses Robbie. Or Velibor all of a sudden stopped being Bora Milutinovic's full name since he uses Bora. Or Sol Campbell's full name magically stopped being Sulzeer since he widely goes by his nickname Sol.

Unfortunately, I'm not able to read Serbo-Croatian, so you'll have to write out whatever it was that you wanted to communicate to me. If you have verifiable info that Prso did legally change his first name, please post it. 69.156.113.195 04:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't mostly go by his "nickname", he only goes by it. I have seen one media report where a journalist tried to get him to confirm that his name is Miladin, but he (Pršo) has not done so.

Obviously neither of us have any idea what his passport says. However, we do not have verifiable info about his birth certificate either, and no information that he did not legally change his first name, either.

So I think it's pointless to harp on Miladin as the first word of the article without actual reason. --Joy [shallot] 10:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Sulzeer Campbell only and exclusively goes by Sol and yet nobody is disputing that his full first name is Sulzeer, which is esentially what you're doing in Prso's case, for the reasons only known to you. And your basis for doing so is the following flimsy statement "well you haven't seen his birth certificate". Well, I don't think people who wrote Sol Campbell's entry on Wiki (or any other footy bio of a player that uses a nickname) saw his birth certificate either, but there's enough verifiable sources that confirm the fact his name is Sulzeer.

In Prso's case there's also enough sources that confirm his name is Miladin. So, we do have verifiable info about his full name being Miladin, unless you personally consider France Presse (AFP) or ESPN not to be reputable sources, but that would be something to deal with on your own time.

So he obviously did confirm that his name is Miladin to some journalists, or are you saying that France Presse people pulled that info out of their behinds.

And it's absolutely ridiculous that you would label the inclusion of his full name in the first paragraph (like every single other Wiki bio does) as harping. The actual reason for that is the fact every other bio does it. You seem to be the only one who has a problem with it for some reason. 65.92.173.18 18:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think I've seen any reason to believe that the news agencies have confirmed the information about Pršo's first name. The unsigned AFP story which you keep linking doesn't quote any reference, it just asserts so! Is that supposed to be an encyclopedic reference?

BTW, User:Dr.Gonzo said at one point he legally changed his name to Dado. I'd be interested to see any actual reference for that, too.

--Joy [shallot] 00:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It sure is fun to be skeptical, but now you're just being absurd. You're suggesting that a newswire agency (one of the two most famous and respectable in the world) either has some sort of an agenda when it comes to Prso or isn't thorough enough in its reporting.

No, they can't be accused of being not thorough enough - they were actually trying to be too thorough. No other journalist noted anything of the sort, there is no review system in place (other than their editors), and for all we know, the journalist who wrote that might as well have just found this information by Googling. The Wikipedia:No original research policy doesn't say that newswire agencies aren't to be trusted, but it doesn't grant them some sort of infallibility either. Here we have one single report noting a first name that nobody else uses and calls it "real name" (as if they know that this is his current official, legally valid name). And on the other hand we have *him*, and everyone else, saying that his current real name is Dado. So which is relevant? --Joy [shallot] 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And your basis for such an outlandish claim is an unsubstantiated statement by user Dr.Gonzo. Hey, I love Dr.Gonzo as much as the next man, but I think it's safe to say that AFP has a little more credibility.

No, I never said that. That was a side note in a separate paragraph. Please read more carefully. --Joy [shallot]

As for what Dr.Gonzo suggested, yes, I too would be interested to see an actual reference for that, if there is any. Hopefully something more credible than a fan forum.65.95.236.128 08:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to explicate a few things - the sr: talk page has one comment from one anonymous user who says he knew him in person, and he said that Miladin was his name in school, and that his parents called him Dado. Googling found me more anonymous comments on two forums saying that Pršo was using Dado when he went to in France. --Joy [shallot] 00:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Weeeell, again....Surely, you're not suggesting school tales to be legit sources. I really see no relevance in this. I use my nickname regularly for introduction purposes and everyday use, all of which doesn't make my full name nonexistant all of a sudden. If someone has a source that Prso did legally change his name, please post it.

As it is, we have a verifiable source on Prso's full name being Miladin and I see no reason why that piece of information should not be included as part of the opening paragraph in accordance with the way all other footy bios on Wikipedia are laid out.65.95.236.128 08:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

We have a news story with no references that conflicts the rest of the world. That is a "verifiable source" only pro forma. --Joy [shallot] 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Right! And by "the rest of the world" you mean four dudes on some football forum and Dr.Gonzo!65.94.137.46 21:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the rest of the world is him and every other media outlet out there, like I said above. --Joy [shallot] 21:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Out where? Where are these reports?65.95.238.176 00:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

My God, this is idiotic. Type Prso into news.google.com and find a Miladin. There is one out of 280 that mentions it. This discussion is pointless. --Joy [shallot] 10:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You're the one making it idiotic by pretending that fan forums and insinuations are legit sources. You're not an idiot, yet you pretend to be one, and, since you know that you can't produce a verifiable source that Prso legally changed his name, now you're just being petulant. The fact that he goes by Dado (which is obvious), the same way Sulzeer Campbell goes by Sol or, Charles "Sonny" Liston, Earvin "Magic" Johnson or every single other case under the sun, doesn't make Prso's first name non-existant. And there's a verifiable source that his first name is Miladin. Period. The fact that you pretend that AFP isn't reputable (or that you pretend that AFP and Dr.Gonzo or some guy you met in pre-school have the same weight when it comes to news claims) is OK in your little pretend "pro forma" world, but not in the wider one.65.92.174.102 19:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The way you want to phrase the article would suggest that Prso's full first name is Dado. It is not - it's his widely used nickname. By phrasing the article your way, you're trying to insinuate that he legally changed his birth name, without producing any proof. Absolutely none.65.92.174.102 19:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I reject the notion that one news article's likely bad phrasing (they could have just said "original" instead of "real" name) is infallible proof that he and nobody around him is somehow never using his real name and instead only consistently using another name. But never mind. We're going in circles. This is not going to be resolved until someone scans his current ID. --Joy [shallot] 20:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Reject it all you want, but on your own time please. Personal beefs and gripes over phrasing and semantics are a POV you're entitled to, but not through Wikipedia. And it was phrased "real" because that's still Prso's full first name - "original" would imply that he changed it in the mean time (like Cassius Clay --> Muhammad Ali, or Lew Alcindor --> Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) wouldn't it. And Prso obviously didn't do that.

But, regardless of our discussion, I'm not sure why are you so perplexed on your personal level. There are literally thousands of examples of notable sports figures in the world being known in public almost exclusively by their nicknames Penny Hardaway (real first name: Anfernee), Mookie Blaylock (rfn: Daron), Red Auerbach (rfn: Arnold), Toe Blake (Hector), King Clancy (rfn: Francis), Tie Domi (Tahir), Cotton Fitzsimmons (Lowell), Danny Blind (Dirk), Bumper Tormohlen (Eugene), Press Maravich (Peter), Butch van Breda Kolff (Willem), Pippo Inzaghi (Filippo), Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink (Jerrel), Co Adriaanse (Jacobson), and so on, and so forth......... The list is literally endless. 65.94.140.203 21:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Dr.Gonzo discussion

I don't like having my name (or username) put in a rediculosly hostile contexts like you've been doing, User:65.94.140.203. I have perfectly good reasons to claim that the man did infact change his name, and in any case, virtually noone refers to him as Miladin, including himself. I'm aware that you won't be satisfied until you see his ID (fat chance of that happening anytime soon), but let me just direct your attention to the article published by Sportske Novosti on November 23rd, 2003. where Prso comments on Slovenian press headlines after Euro 2004 qualifiers ("Serb leds Croatia to victory over Slovenia"), in which he commented "I'm Croatian, I'm overjoyed to have been given a shirt with croatan coat of arms, and that I could contribute in a small way (to Croatian side victory). I'm Croatian, everything else is nonsense." or, in original croatian: "Ja sam Hrvat, presretan sam što sam dobio majicu s hrvatskim grbom i što sam mogao Hrvatskoj nešto malo pridonijeti. Ja sam Hrvat, sve ostalo su gluposti."

And how is any of this relevant to what we have been talking about? I do not see anything in that quote of his that suggest he legally changed his name, which is what you keep suggesting without providing any verifiable info in support, all the while continuing to vandalize this article.

Furthermore, when you say that you "have perfectly good reasons to claim that Prso did infact change his name" I can only remind you that you do not require a proof of your good reasons or anything so deeply esoteric, all you need to do is provide verifiable info for your claims.

65.95.239.86 07:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It is relevant since you yourself cannot provide verifiable sources for your claims either. His legal name IS Dado Prso since he himself never suggested otherwise. The whole controversy originates from an article in a slovenian newspaper following the defeat of the Slovenian national team in qualifications for Euro 2004 against Croatia, and Dado himself commented in a way already cited. I wish we could ask him personally but since that is not likely to happen anytime soon, we need to go with the VERIFIABLE version. And Miladin is certainly not verifiable. Prove me wrong with PRIMARY SOURCES. I suspect the ESPN article is simply a translation of the slovenian one, (infact I know it is) so that one doesn't count. --Dr.Gonzo 09:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

On another note, "miladin prso" gives exactly 180 results in Google, "dado prso" gives 321.000. That speaks volumes. Therefore, if the man wants to be called Dado we will call him Dado. End of story. I agree we should mention the fact that he is ethnic Serb and that his given name is Miladin, but your way of going about doing that makes me question your motives. I'm reverting back to my previous version. --Dr.Gonzo 03:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That only speaks to the fact that he prefers to go by his nickname, and this article reflects that fact as it is titled Dado Prso and not Miladin Prso. His real name is mentioned in the same way real names of all the other athletes are mentioned in Wikipedia bios. All those other athletes mentioned above (Sol Campbell, Sonny Liston, Magic Johnson,....etc, etc.) also go by their nicknames, which doesn't make thier real names nonexistent.

So, one more time, please stop petulantly vandalizing this page while providing no proof for your claims. 65.95.239.86

That is a logical fallacy - argumentum ad populum. The fact that many athletes use their nicknames in place of their given names doesn't mean Dado is doing the same.

Also, acusing one of vandalization without some pretty good evidence is considered a personal attack and is generally against Wikipedia rules of conduct. Also, coming from an anonymous user, directed against an established contributer it is especially rediculous. The fact is - the man himself never, EVER said his name is Miladin, and infact, this has never been verified by any source other than Slovenian "Delo" newspaper. So, if you keep reverting my edits I'll consider reporting it to the administrators and request a block on anonymous user edits. --Dr.Gonzo 09:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you call deliberately deleting verifiable info and replacing it with claims with zero support? That is vandalism.

You'll have to provide a lot more than one source if you want me to support this. Btw, you call 321.000 Google hits zero support? Interesting. Oh, and by the way, you may want to read up on WP:Vandalism before making any more outlandish claims. --Dr.Gonzo 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"The fact that many athletes use their nicknames in place of their given names doesn't mean Dado is doing the same." He obviously is doing the same since there are verifiable sources about his real name being Miladin.

Again, I want to see more then one news article before I can support that. --Dr.Gonzo 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, term "established contributor" is of absolutely no meaning in this context and that fact that you are registered doesn't give you right to engage in vandalism that is to delete verifiable information and replace it with unsupported claims.

This is your last warning - if you continue with ad hominem attacks, I will report it. Btw, you might want to read up on Wikipedia:Assume Good Faith --Dr.Gonzo 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Finally, the source for Prso's name being Miladin is a reputable news agency called AFP, so please stop giving false information about there not being a source. There is a source and you keep deleting it.65.95.236.26 10:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It pretty much amounts to hear-say. He has never publicaly declared himself a Serb, and has never publicaly used the name Miladin. Why AFP would report such obscurities is beyond me, but they are certainly not infallible and without secondary sources it cannot be accepted as fact. --Dr.Gonzo 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We've been down this road before with Joy. The fact that you consider AFP reporting (an agency quoted and carried all accross the world) as hear-say is your own POV and you can excersise it all you want on your own time, but you have no right to delete verifiable info that's been carried by numerous media outlets across the globe. And on top of that you should not make claims with absolutely no factual support.

Nobody is disputing the fact he goes by his nickname. That is way this article is named Dado Prso, but there's a very reputable and verifiable source that's been carried by many others about his real name and ethnic roots, so I see no reason outside of emotional nationalistic-inspired football fervor to resort to removing that info and replacing it with completely unsupported claims.

There's a reason media outlets use news agencies as their sources - that being a certain reliability and factual accuracy. And along with Retuers, AFP is the most famous news agency in the world.

And the fact that Prso supposedly avoids talking about his real name in home media doesn't really surprise me. Look at the wrath such a simple thing like his real name and roots is gathering from ardent footy fans such as yourself. One can only imagine the sort of unpleasntness he would be exposed to if he openly flaunted his real name and roots.65.92.174.50 12:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, provide just one Reuters source that refers to him as Miladin and I'll shut the hell up. Until then, no, this won't fly. And again, you're drawing conclusions about me (and Dado Prso) based on your own prejudice. I'm not interested in concealing anything, I'm interested in creating factualy accurate articles. If this can't be positively verified (and no, one AFP article doesn't do that) then I can't in good concience let it be included in the article. It has nothing to do with my (supposed) feelings on the subject. Btw, Serbian Wikipedia has gone down this road also, and after arduous debate they concluded that it can't be positively established that his real name is Miladin, or that he is ethnic Serb, since he never declared himself as anything else than Dado Prso, Croatian. And considering the subject, I would think they would be very motivated indeed to get to the bottom of this... In any case, the relevant discussion is here: sr:Разговор:Дадо Пршо. --Dr.Gonzo 13:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, so how many outlets have to carry the AFP story for you to be satisifed (so far I've found about 10 and stopped counting, FIFA offical site[1], ESPN(on the main page), The Australian, sportlive.at austrian website[2], and so on.....). Surely, some of them would be little apprehensive about running a story if it sounded fishy. However, they didn't do that. The story was good enough for all of them but it is not for you, for some strange reason.

Furthermore, the main article link on the bottom of the page to Canadian Omni-TV also mentions him as Miladin "Dado" Prso[3] independently of the AFP story. There's another story, with no reference to AFP (I believe it's Dutch) that mentions him as Miladin [4].

So I'll say it again just as I did to Joy: You can personally dispute/disapprove of AFP (and also other sources like Canadian Tv and Dutch TV) all you want but out in the wide world AFP is one of the top sources of information and as such it certainly takes precedence over your personal doubts and claims about his name change that you're not able to substantiate with anything verifiable. Info about his real name and ethnicity, on the other hand, is verifiable.

Furthermore, the AFP story doesn't only list his real name and ethnicity offhand but also provides many other details from his life and career path vry thoroughly. Why you're having trouble accepting this is beyond me.

As for the other big news wire agency, unlike AFP they did not write a big profile on Prso probably because AFP already did, and because frankly he isn't that huge of a football star for both of the world's big agencies to write specifically about his life story. He's primarily of interest to wider global media precisely for his interesting and colourful life path, and one world agency got his story out there.

As for the Serbian discussion, all that I can pick up from it is that it's old news since it ended a year ago, and that Joy took part in it. Since he seems to have now accepted, albeit begrungingly, that in the meantime a reputable, verifiable source has appeared about Prso's first name he would have probably mentioned by now if there was anything worth mentioning from that Serbian discussion.67.68.44.127 14:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You got it wrong. I did not accept that reputable, verifiable source has appeared [supporting your point]. I merely left it as is because I don't care enough to argue this any more with you. There are more important things in life. --Joy [shallot] 21:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm having "trouble accepting it" because the man himself has refuted the fact in the only public reaction to the subject at hand. The question is - is he a Serb if he doesn't declare himself as such, is he Miladin if he exclusively calls himself Dado? These are important questions. I suspect that the AFP article got it wrong from the start, probably by carrying parts of the story from the Slovenian "Delo" newspaper from November 20th, 2003., whose allegations Dado refuted in Croatian sporting newspaper "Sportske Novosti" on November 23rd, 2003. All those other sources you cited are only reprints of the original AFP article, and as for the Dutch source, I really can't comment since I don't speak Dutch. In any case, the issue HAS been covered by Dado himself and I feel we should respect his stance on it, by not including any of this questionable information. Besides, this conversation will stay here for all those who might be interested about this. --Dr.Gonzo 23:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition to Dutch source, there's also a Canadian source that lists him as Miladin "Dado" Prso[5]. So in addition to widely cited and reputable AFP - that's three sources.

The issue that we're discussing here has actually NOT been covered in that Novtosti article, and that is the issue of your claim that he legally changed his name. You did not provide a single source in support of that claim. As for him prefering to go by his nickname, that doesn't in any way whatsoever negate his real name nor does it render it unworthy of mention. As I already said to Joy I myself have a fairly long first name and prefer to use my nickanme/shortened name even for official formal purposes, all of which didn't make my real name nonexistant. Additionaly, this is exactly the same as those million other examples of athletes who are widely known by their nicknames. So, repeating myself for the millionth time [[Sol Campbell]'s name didn't stop being Sulzeer simply because he prefers not to use it widely...... same thing with the dozens and dozens of other examples I listed above.

So, to answer your question is he Miladin if he exclusively calls himself Dado -- yes he is. Until he legally changes his name, that is. If that were to occur in the future, he would become formerly known as Miladin, like Muhammad Ali is formerly known as Cassius Clay. These are not some mystical existentialist, esoteric, philosphical questions but rather simple biographical facts that were verified.

The fact that Prso prefers to call himself Dado is reflected in this article through the fact that the article's very title is Dado Prso. However, you're trying to have his real name not included in the article by claiming that he legally changed it --- while providing absolutely no sources in support, other than saying that you have good reasons for claiming so. And lately, you're even introducing this philosphical idea along the lines of "if nobody saw a tree fall in the woods, did it really fall" which in your case became "ok well maybe his name is Miladin but if nobody calls him by that name is it really his name", all of which has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about here. This is not a philospohical discussion, but purely a biographical one. His real name is Miladin until he legally changes it. Plain and simple.65.94.128.37 03:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

My source for the name change issue is Croatian wikipedia. I simply translated what is written there. Unfortunately that article doesn't cite sources either. Infact, no other wikipedia except the english one even mentions this issue (and they're not just translations) and that certainly says something. On another note, Google News search at this time gives 680 results for "Dado Prso" and only one for "Miladin Prso".

But you know what? I don't care either way. You obviously have an agenda here, and I have better things to do than arguing about this. But what you're doing is wrong, that's all I have to say. --Dr.Gonzo 16:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, really, shame on me for including verifiable info from relevant and reputable sources.

As for Google mentions, you're again missing the point. Nobody is disputing the fact that Prso widely goes in public by his nickname, which your example aptly demonstrates. I will thus remind you again that the title of this Wiki article is Dado Prso for that reason precisely. Google news search for "Sulzeer Campbell" returns 3 results, "Sol Campbell" returns 1890. That does not however mean Sol Campbell's real name suddenly stopped being Sulzeer. "Anfernee Hardaway" returns 5, "Penny Hardaway" returns 150. That does not make his real name Anfernee any less. Etc, etc......with all the earlier mentioned examples.

Person's real name does not dissappear into thin air simply because most in public refer to him/her by his/her nickname.69.156.113.164 03:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

removing facts

Please stop removing facts from the article. This is considered vandalism.--Lowg 23:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm..

But he's still Serbian Orthodox, his hometown was full of Serbs... I think he doesn't want to be an enemy of his people so he says he's croat...

The only reason he is Serb Orthodox is because there is no Cro Orthodox church! To be Orthodox by religion in the balkans automatically see's you as being Serbian, because the Orthodox Serb church has so much political strength... So Dado might well be a Croatian but Orthodox by religion..and as stated considering Serbian orthodox has the monopoly over that arm of christianity he can't be anythign else... but i spoke to Dado once...and he is a true Croat even rattled off some funy anti-serb jokes! ROB.

It's not true that if you're Orthodox on Balkans you're automatically Serb. This is applied ONLY to the people from the Serbo-Croatian speaking area, which includes Serbs(Orthodox), Croats(Catholics) and Bosnians(Muslims), and it's a logical division how these South Slavic peoples are split, which is - by the religion. The language they speak is same, and they have almost same mentality. Why Prso rejected his serbian ethnicity (Orthodox) and accepted the one of the majority in his living area (Catholic) is his personal thing. Most likely that's because of the hatred that croatian nationalists were spreading against anyone who's not a 'Croat' in the past, which was also the reason why many people of Dalmatia, like Dado Prso, chenged their religion and nationality from Othodox to Catholic. The Shtokavian dialect (the basis of Serbo-Croatian language) that these people, who are the majority of Dalmatians speak is a proof that they're closely related to the other Shtokavian speaking people, which are the peoples in Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro. Those are the facts; everything else, including every offense sent to the author of this text is a worthless product of an insane mind. Zivili! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.132.111 (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

• He is Serbian Orthodox but declares him Croat because if he declares himself Serb he will be hated in Croatia. His uncle Milivoje is Serb, living in Serbia. His cousin Milan is playing for U-21 FK Red Star and is Serb. Miladin, Milivoje, Milan are predominantly Serb names. --Nexm0d

• • Are you sure you're not just projecting some of your own personal opinions - perhaps biases - of Croatians' attitudes to Serbs here as a justification? It strikes me that saying 'he does X because in my opinion he thinks Y' isn't a very compelling argument. If Dado Prso says he's Croat, he's Croat - or can you name a better source than the man himself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.254.89.228 (talk) 10:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Including his first name, Miladin, is "tendentious, thinly veiled political advocacy"!?

I guess Agence France-Presse also became a Serb nationalist propaganda bullhorn somewhere along the way. Prso is explicitly referred to as having a real name of Miladin as well as being an ethnic Serb.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060702201215/http://www.omnitv.ca/ontario/worldcup2006/player_dadoprso.shtml http://web.archive.org/web/20061031034409/http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/060522/6/6vc8.html http://www.sportlive.at/artikel_showartikel.php?aid=0000030422 http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060524/asp/sports/story_6262010.asp http://www.nezavisne.com/sport/ostali_sportovi/Milan-Prso-Zelim-nadmasiti-Dadine-uspjehe-7784.html http://mondo.rs/a29368/Sport/Fudbal/Dado-Prso-se-povlaci-iz-reprezentacije.html http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dado-prso/profil/spieler/4178

I'm gonna assume good faith here, against my better judgement, and assume that you overlooked the above links through an honest mistake, although we both know what's going on here.Zvonko (talk) 13:51, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't overlook anything - none of these links were referenced in the article or in the talk page. The implication that AFP is anything of the sort is a figment of your own imagination and an assumption of bad faith. What's going on here is that you are using an article talk page to try to prove a point, as opposed to actually formatting some of these links into references. From a quick skim, many aren't particularly reliable, but the interview of the relative at Nezavisne novine is interesting. It demonstrates very succinctly that, while the newspaper mentioned the name Miladin in the introduction, all the other references to the player were for Dado. So it could be added as a source in the first section where there's a citation request now, while the rest of the article should continue to use the name Dado, just like the source. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:26, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

First off, your baseless accusations. You accused me of bad faith. Precious. As recently as yesterday you refereed to the inclusion of Dado Prso's first name in the article (as is the case on hundreds of other sportspeople bios throughout Wiki), as a "Serb nationalist talking point", a "thinly veiled political advocacy", and an "unverified Serbian name claim", also back in 2006 you were dismissive of the AFP source, at one point even calling for Prso's ID scan. When I brought this up, your response was calling it a figment of my imagination and making ridiculous accusations of bad faith!? You also accused me of proving a point, basing it on my mere presence here. The only reason I'm here posting on this page now is your removal of Prso's first name based on a claim that its inclusion is " tendentious & unreferenced". Clearly there are and there have been references on this page all along. Frankly I found it extremely unlikely that someone as nit-picky and anal as you would fail to notice the references on the talk page when you removed the first name from the article, but I guess it's possible. Also, as per your "I (Joy) didn't overlook anything - none of these links were referenced in the article or in the talk page" claim, it is not true. The first three links I presented to you just above have been on this talk page page for 8 years (and the AFP story from the FIFA official page is among them) and you clearly were aware of them back in 2006 as the ANON referenced them when addressing you directly and you even mention some explicitly yourself in your responses. So assuming in good faith that your failure to notice them now in 2014 was an honest oversight on your part I have to inform you once again that you DID overlook them because they've been here all this time. For the dissection of the Nezavisne ref, I'm not even sure what you're pushing and arguing for there. Nobody on this page, least of all me, has disputed that he goes by Dado (the article is called Dado Prso in case you failed to notice that too) so why you felt compelled to argue that is beyond me. From the best that I could gather, you don't want his first name Miladin in the intro, but you can live with it in the 'early career' section and you're basing all of this this on the fact that when you total them up most references are to Dado and Miladin, which is completely ridiculous, IF this is what you're arguing for (if not forget the previous sentence). Yes, of course they're to Dado, this is what he goes by, but that doesn't negate his first name.Zvonko (talk) 05:18, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

On the whole, this is just more wikilawyering. The fact remains that all the users who had added this name to the article have been tendentious and fairly clueless with regard to our sourcing policies, including yourself. For example, Mondo.rs appears to be like T-portal.hr - a news site that isn't really a source of comparative reliability to some newspaper of record. But even that can be tolerated, were it not for the fact that this is the one single story that Google can find on their site that uses the name Miladin - the other half a dozen do not. We have no way of knowing whether this single mention is the product of a specific writer being more knowledgeable, or just having used Wikipedia as a source. I'm sure if I checked all the other sources, I could find more of the same. I get the impression that even if we had a precise proof that Pršo has "Dado" on his documents, someone like you would still find a way to contest that, since you're finding it so easy to contest the preponderance of sources using solely that name. Which is contrary to all the applicable policies, if it still needs to be repeated. This is a waste of time. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't going to bother with your obvious nonsense until you went back to removing verified info, but your mondo.rs claim about this piece that I posted above being the "one single source one their site that uses the name Miladin" is patently false. In addition to what was posted already, there's also this, this, and this. A simplest of Google searches returned that.

Furthermore, we got high-circulation Serbian daily newspapers referring to Miladin Prso (1, 2, 3, 4 (referencing Slovenian coverage that also mentions Miladin), 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 + a Croatian web portal referencing the aforementioned Slovenian coverage 11). And then there's the Serbian sports news portals (12, 13, 14, etc, etc....).Zvonko (talk) 05:50, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The sources for "Miladin" are solid enough for the standards of confirming what one's birth name is, it's not like someone's claiming Pršo has two heads or something of the sort which would need bulletproof sources. Also, mentioning someone's birth name in the article is really not out of the ordinary, so questioning the motives of editors who do it is unnecessary as long as this fact is not used in trying to prove a POV point or go against WP:BLP, and I see no evidence for either in the article as it stands now. GregorB (talk) 19:32, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I posit that they're not solid enough, as I explained earlier on numerous occasions - even the most genuine among these examples are all still from internally inconsistent sources. The presumed fact is indeed used to prove a POV point - when the preponderance of sources use a common name, and only a handful of people keep harping on an uncommon name, that's a classic WP:POINT/WP:SOAPBOX violation. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

More ridiculous wikilawyering (as in "misinterpreting policy or relying on technicalities to justify inappropriate actions"), precisely what you accuse others of doing, with "internal inconsistency" being the latest straw you're clutching to. You can not "posit" the sources aren't solid enough by offering the fact they also use Prso's nickname in addition to his real name as a supposed proof of their lack of solidity. Ludicrous. The fact that Prso mostly goes by his nickname, Dado, does not make his real first name, Miladin, non-existent. And his real name being Miladin IS backed up by numerous reliable sources. The fact that sources mentioning Prso's real name Miladin also use his nickname Dado is a "inconsistent" only in your world. No one disputes he mostly goes by Dado.

You've been removing verified info from Dado Prso over the span of 8 years already (whilst with a straight face characterizing the work of other editors' as "harping"), standing guard against, and I quote, "Serb nationalist talking points", a "thinly veiled political advocacy", and an "unverified Serbian name claim".

Not to mention accusing people of WP:Point. Precious. I guess including information backed up by reliable sources qualifies as "proving a point" in your little world.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, examples of Wiki BLPs titled according to the person's nickname, and all of them have the the person's real first name included in the lede:

• Co Adriaanse (Jacobus "Co" Adriaanse)
• Sol Campbell (Sulzeer Jeremiah "Sol" Campbell)
• Alex Ferguson (Alexander Chapman "Alex" Ferguson)
• Matt Busby (Alexander Matthew "Matt" Busby)
• Jupp Heynckes (Josef "Jupp" Heynckes)
• Ruud van Nistelrooy (Rutgerus Johannes Martinus "Ruud" van Nistelrooy)
• Marco van Basten (Marcel "Marco" van Basten)
• Uli Hoeneß (Ulrich "Uli" Hoeneß)
• Toe Blake (Joseph Hector "Toe" Blake)
• Cotton Fitzsimmons (Lowell "Cotton" Fitzsimmons), and so on, and so forth (just to keep it to the sportspeople)

Somehow I don't see any sign of you over the last 8 years on any of those bios, removing the individuals' first names from their articles' respective ledes nor are you spewing any of your wikilawyering nonsense on those article's talk pages, complaining that the real name sources are "internally inconsistent" (btw, most of the bios don't even provide sources for the first name information) or pointing out that the person's nickname is more widely used than his first name as basis to remove the first name from the lede.

Also, whatever happened to that earlier claim of yours about including Dado Prso's real name in his bio constituting "thinly veiled political advocacy", and an "unverified Serbian name claim"? Considering there are numerous non-Serb sources stating Dado Prso's real name to be Miladin, do you still see it as a Serb nationalist effort?

So to recap. There are reliable sources meeting WP:BLP criteria under WP:SOURCE and WP:NEWSORG as 'factual content' (including a well-established news agency with numerous reprints) that explicitly state his real name is Miladin. No amount of wikilawyering from your end can change this basic fact.Zvonko (talk) 01:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary foreign-language news portals and run-off-the-mill agency news aren't particularly reliable sources, and even if we take that minority at face value, no amount of walls of text you repeat will undo the simple discrepancy seen when e.g. a google search for 'AFP "dado prso"' returns 9 thousand hits, while the search for 'AFP "miladin prso" returns 9 hits, all of which are false positives. If you think that this source cherry-picking that is three orders of magnitude below the threshold of relevance is improving the encyclopedia, I'm afraid it is you who is "delirious". --Joy [shallot] (talk) 06:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

And the wikilawyering continues. There's nothing arbitrary about the sources I listed, they include highest-circulation print media outlets in Serbia and Slovenia as well as the most prominent regional web portals. The fact that many sources are non-English language (all perfectly in line with verifiability policies WP:NOENG) is understandable considering Prso doesn't hold the same prominence outside of former Yugoslavia. Even so, there is a number of reliable English language sources, such as Agence France Presse stating explicitly his real first name is Miladin, so weaselly worded unsupported claims such as 'run-of-the-mill agency' and 'below the threshold of relevance' ain't gonna cut it. WP:FULLNAME is very clear about the opening paragraph: "While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known (including middle names, if known, or middle initials).".Zvonko (talk) 08:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

RfC: include the presumed birth name in the article lead section or not?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the lead section of this article include the name Miladin?

The existence of the name as a birth name is verifiable, but in a very small number of sources. It's not verified that it's still the person's proper name today.

Because this is a WP:BLP, and this is a Croatian/Serbian nationalist talking point of practically no relevance to the average English reader, I'd prefer it if we keep the claim in the first section where it's possible to reasonably assume that it is appropriate.

This has been in the air for about eight years now, and little has changed, except that I've been subjected to various kinds of abuse by proponents of the opposite theory, so I'm looking for more outside input because it seems like I'm tilting at the windmills here. Thank you.

--Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:04, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The way this request is worded contains/implies several fallacies that might mislead a new editor and as such they must be pointed out.

Pointing out that the name Miladin "is verifiable, but in a very small number of sources", besides being POV characterization (in 5 mins I found some 20 additional references from reliable sources on top of some dozen that were already here -- all together more than enough to establish a birth name as is customary on million other BLPs), also attempts to frame this dispute wrongly as supposedly being over WP:COMMONNAME. It is not. It is over WP:BIRTHNAME. No one ever disputed that Dado Prso mostly goes by Dado. Joy's continual references to "Dado being used more often than Miladin" are a straw man that nobody ever questioned or disputed. Never ever.

The very next statement in Joy's request is "It's not verified that it's still the person's proper name today" implies, with zero reliable sources offered in support during the previous 8 years, that Dado Prso might have legally changed his first name. This claim/implication is completely baseless. Not a single source has been produced by Joy or anyone else in its support in 8 years. On the other hand, numerous reliable sources state Prso's first name to be Miladin.

Furthermore, the claim about the statement Dado Prso's real name is Miladin being "a Croatian/Serbian nationalist talking point" is nothing but a claim by Joy that's by no means established fact. Originally, he claimed it's a 'Serbian nationalist talking point on Wikipedia' and 'thinly veiled political advocacy' (presumably also Serbian), but now in the request he changed it to 'Croatian/Serbian talking point'.Zvonko (talk) 09:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Great that you've learned how to use bold, but the claim is still false, because conversely zero reliable sources actually and explicitly state that his proper name is in fact still this presumed birth name. And, once again, no, a one-off agency story someone dug out of the Internet Archive doesn't really count as a reliable source compared to the tens of thousands of other sources that curiously omit this. I'm going to stop replying to you now, because we're clearly running in circles. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

More wikilawyering garnered with cynicism. If you claim the statement "Joy has produced zero sources in support of his claim that Dado Prso legally changed his birth name is false then show me a source that says Prso legally changed his first name. You can't. You don't have any. And you haven't had any for 8 years now, none of which has stopped you in the slightest from removing verified info from this bio. And yes, reliable sources explicitly state his birth name to be Miladin, and plenty of sources refer to him as such, all perfectly in line with WP:BIRTHNAME (WP:FULLNAME) as far as the inclusion of that info in the lede goes. Your suggestion/implication that a 2006 AFP agency source is unreliable "due to a statute of limitations because it was archived" would be laugh out loud funny had it not been a gross violation of WP:SOURCES and WP:NEWSORG factual content. Your continual straw man argument that you build up by bringing up the fact that Dado is used more often than Miladin (a fact nobody once disputed on this talk page), thereby attempting to suggest this discussion is about WP:COMMONNAME instead of the WP:BIRTHNAME, is another ridiculous tactic you employ. And despite being warned of this million times you still continue to do it. You've been spewing wikilawyering nonsense, misinterpreting policy, and ignoring sources on this talk page as well as removing verified info from this bio for 8 years now in regular time intervals. Throughout that time you haven't had one constructive thing to contribute, so who's kidding who - you'll be back. Having nothing constructive to add has never stopped you before.Zvonko (talk) 19:52, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

This sounds like an echo chamber... --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, how lovely to have you back. I thought you said you're outta here. Then again, you said the same thing many times before. And you're still here 8 years later. Still nothing constructive to add. Still no sources for your claims. Still removing verified information. Still wikilawyering. Still misinterpreting guidelines and policies.

Any sources in support of your claim Prso legally changed his birth name? The 9th anniversary of you making that claim is upon us in May 2015 and still nothing in support.Zvonko (talk) 18:02, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I've went on and put the form Pršo was and still is most commonly known in article lede. Full names are better suited for infoboxes (which is exactly why Template:infobox football player has two separate categories for the same individual's name). Timbouctou (talk) 22:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Wrong application of wiki policy and guidelines. WP:COMMONNAME refers to the article title. The name of this article is Dado Pršo, which is the subject's most commonly known name. In case you missed my conversation with Joy, the lede is subject to WP:FULLNAME.

"While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known (including middle names, if known, or middle initials). Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version."

Zvonko (talk) 22:56, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Cool. And do we know his full name for sure? Because it seems to me you only know he was born as "Miladin" but you have no idea whether he had other birth names as well, like for example "Miladin Uroš Nemanja Zvonko Branimir Pršo". So I'd like some reference actually stating his full birth name before discussing where to put it in the article. Timbouctou (talk) 23:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

With that kind of quick wit, you must a golden god amongst the ladies of your town.

Are we also sure Pršo only has two legs and a single head? As soon as references are found about his possible polycephaly and/or polymelia, we'll reconvene here to discuss where to put all that new info in the article.

Just in case you weren't being facetious, yes, we have reliable sources that the subject's full real birth name is Miladin Pršo, and not "Miladin Uroš Nemanja Pršo", "Miladin Zvonko Branimir Pršo" or any combinations therein.Zvonko (talk) 01:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not impressed by your attempts at witticism. So which are the reliable sources that "we have"? Do you think you could post them here instead of merely declaring their existence? Timbouctou (talk) 12:15, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

"Merely declaring their existence"? You didn't notice any references on this talk page or in the article itself? They're not hidden, you know.Zvonko (talk) 01:45, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Some bullets from me:

• I'm currently against using "Miladin" in the lead section, as there is no proof that this is his current legal name (while, incidentally, there is no proof that it isn't).
• Still, I support having this name in the first section of the article proper, as his birth name.
• I believe sources that support this name are sufficient for the usual standards of establishing one's birth name.
• It is important to decouple motives for including a fact from the way this fact is used in the article. One can think of a myriad of ulterior motives for including a fact, but I don't think it is a sensible criterion: it would involve guesswork about someone's real or imagined intentions, and is as such too restrictive (it could be used as grounds for expunging almost any fact from the article). What matters is the way the fact is used. Looking at the article in its entirety, as it presently stands, I don't see evidence that it is used in an inappropriate way or context.
• While there is a valid WP:BLP concern here, I wouldn't say it is an overriding one (i.e. I don't see a good reason to deviate from what would otherwise be considered standard practice). GregorB (talk) 14:56, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

You don't consider an AFP source from 2006, explicitly stating Miladin to be his "real name", as well as a number of Balkan sources referring to him as Miladin since then and before then, as proof that his first name is still Miladin? As you yourself mentioned, there's isn't a single valid source stating Prso legally changed his name, either from 2006 until present day or before 2006 for that matter. What is the rationale for running with this "Prso legally changed his name" theory, which there isn't a shred of credible reference for, and on top of that using the said unsourced theory as basis to simply ignore WP:FULLNAME?Zvonko (talk) 00:01, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

There's an ambiguity about the term "real name". Bill Clinton's "real name" is William Jefferson Clinton, while Marilyn Monroe's "real name" is Norma Jeane Mortenson, but it's not the same thing. That's why I'm not sure about "Miladin" in the lead. GregorB (talk) 08:04, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

What is ambiguous here?. Clinton goes by his widely-used nickname, Monroe had a stage name like Iggy Pop, and hundreds of others.

Also, you haven't addressed the main point. Considering there's no evidence of Prso legally changing his name, what are you then using as your basis to argue for removal of his sourced real name Miladin from lede? You're arguing for WP:FULLNAME to be disregarded. What is your basis for doing that?Zvonko (talk) 14:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

You are right regarding WP:FULLNAME, so I've crossed out my initial position above. The only argument left would be an argument against the sources, and I've already said that I consider sources to be sufficient. GregorB (talk) 19:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Still, I lost my train of thought there: the current intro suggests his current name is "Miladin", but we don't know that. So the extension of my original argument is still valid: while WP:FULLNAME says full (or "real" name) should be in the intro, we can't use intro to hazard a guess on whether he has changed his legal name or not, as we don't know that, and I see no way to work around this. GregorB (talk) 17:27, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

How can unsourced hypotheticals be used to question info from reliable sources? Your claim that "Dado Prso may have legally changed his name" has to be rooted in some kind of reality supported by a reliable reference in order to be reasonably brought up as something that may have taken place.

The act of "legally changing one's name" is NOT a widely occurring act so that you can bring up the possibility of its occurrence without any specific reference. What you're basically saying is: "I don't have any specific references that Prso legally changed his name, but he may have legally changed his name simply because it's been 8 years since the last time a reliable source explicitly stated his name is Miladin". This is fallacious reasoning. Changing your name is NOT some kind of a widely occurring event like getting married, having a kid or having additional kids. The fact that 8 years have passed could perhaps, due to the wide occurrence of these acts (marriage, kids...) amongst most of the population, be used as a somewhat reasonable inkling of those acts maybe possibly occurring even without actual specific reference, but the claim that "someone may have legally changed his first name" needs to be based on an actual reference - it can not be pulled from thin air as a reasonable suggestion without a reliable source. I really don't see why you're bringing up this hypothetical scenario over and over again without any references. I've asked this question of you before without getting an answer: what are you basing this claim that Prso may have changed his name on? If you're suggesting that a reliable source from 2006 stating Prso's real name to be Miladin isn't enough to establish that Prso's name in 2014 is still Miladin then you're also taking on a burden of proof to provide references that he indeed legally changed his name between 2006 and 2014.Zvonko (talk) 03:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe we already settled on the fact that there is no proof either way on Pršo changing his legal name. I agree that, of the two possibilities, name change is much less likely. (And would also be a more serious BLP problem if suggested or implied without reasonable sourcing.) It is still reasonably probable, though, and the existing sources don't really help in excluding it.

Note also I've made the above remark while still keeping my original statement crossed out. GregorB (talk) 09:33, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Use Miladin - A cursory search, albeit using a few translated sources, quickly found that the subject was born 'Miladin' with 'Dado' being the common name universally. I did not find a single reference that 'Miladin' had ever been legally changed. This seems clear-cut. EBY (talk) 12:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

You have no qualms about the few translated sources' reliability? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:46, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

No qualms - I expect reliable sources often come from the native countries of the subjects. It appears FIFA referred to him as Miladin ‘Dado’ Prša. It seems straightforward that the lede should have his birth name and then acknowledge his commonly used name and use it exclusively after, like Bono or Pelé . My opinion stands. EBY (talk) 01:52, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

• Use Miladin: WP:FULLNAME, precedent all over Wikipedia, and (frankly) common sense make this a non-issue.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 08:05, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
• Use Miladin This would follow policy and commons sense, especially since there was no real reason given above for why this article should be an exception to the wiki-wide rules on naming. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 18:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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name edit war again

I protected the article after noticing a months-long edit war. SerVasi and Pjesnik21, I believe it's clear from the contents of the talk page that this matter has been discussed before, and WP:edit warring on a WP:biography of a living person on a topic within the scope of WP:ARBMAC is a glaringly obvious offence. I was involved in these kinds of arguments years ago, but I believe the passage of time since then allows me to safely say that you will be blocked if this behavior persists. Please present your arguments on the talk page, and explain why you shouldn't be blocked. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:35, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Skimming over the tp i didnt notice any debates over cyrillic. Everything seems to be centered around the name Miladin which is somwhat related but not really relevant in the this current dispute. I was restoring the stable version. I was open to additions but i requested adequate sources as this can be a touchy subject. Opening a tp discusion would normaly be a standard procedure but we are dealing with multiple anonymous IP besides Pjesnik21. My past experiences with these swarms have shown that opening tpd with a swarm is less than fruitful as i dont have that kind of pull like an admin. Its more like shouting in a void. Even if me and Pjesnik found some common ground, there would be 3 new IPs doing it their way. In hindsight i probably shouldve requested page protection but im not completely familiar with the process.SerVasi (talk) 21:06, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello, it is not clear to me why Cyrillic should be written here, and Dado Pršo declared himself a Croat, here is the proof. He told sports news: I am a Croat, the rest is nonsense https://www.index.hr/sport/clanak/dado-prso-ja-sam-hrvat-ostalo-su-gluposti/172002.aspx 93.136.90.248 (talk) 14:36, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Here are more sources, so let someone put on the article that he is a Croat with sources. I can't because the site is protected. The source is from Serbian and Croatian newspapers, which he stated. "I am a Croat, I am overjoyed to have received a T-shirt with the Croatian coat of arms and to have been able to bring something to Croatia. I am a Croat, everything else is nonsense " https://www.dnevno.hr/sport/srbi-opet-prisvajaju-zele-hrvatsku-nogometnu-legendu-dado-prso-odrekao-se-srpskog-imena-1506200/ https://sport.blic.rs/fudbal/evropski-fudbal/dado-prso-miladin-srbin-hrvat-reprezentacija/6l9csp8 93.136.90.248 (talk) 15:02, 19 September 2021 (UTC)