Talk:Diplomatic history of World War II

Article

While I appreciate the work towards this article, it seems to be duplicating what already is contained in several other articles like Molotov Ribbentrop Treaty or Causes of Second World War. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:16, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

the Molotov Ribbentrop Treaty & Causes of Second World War deal with BEFORE the war. This covers mostly DURING the war with some references to the prewar diplomatic agreements. Rjensen (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Poland

This article is to be a summary of the diplomatic history of World War II. Main articles can be linked for greater detail, including World War II, World War II in Europe, Events preceding World War II in Europe and Causes of World War II, etc. This section is getting too long and needs ce work. Kierzek (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

As long as basic facts remain about long-term goals of Hitler of conquering Poland and Eastern Europe and his attempts to subjugate Poland to satellite status by cutting off its access to the sea and annexations we can trim some of the article-for instance I find long quotes unncessary. Also I have been thinking of creating article about foreign Policy of Nazi Germany towards Poland[1] since before edits in this article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

well no-- a) Hitler's long term plans re Poland seem to be debated here. MyMoloboaccount says they can be deduced from what happened once the war started but the Hitler biographers say no--that he did NOT have longterm plan for Poland before April 1939 & instead Hitler focused on USSR; he wanted Poland as an ally in attacking USSR b) cutting off access to sea was never alleged; (the highway/RR was not a barrier, it was like Allid access lines to West Berlin) c) the only annexation involved (before the war) was Danzig. Rjensen (talk) 01:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, the best thing would then be to put in briefly what the historians state as to Hitler/Germany's plan up through Aug. 31, 1939 and then briefly what was put into action by the Germans from Sept. 1939 forward, during the war in Europe. Rjensen, do you want to take a stab at it? Kierzek (talk) 01:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

OK...As I see it the critical time period was Feb-April 1939. That's when Poland rejected Hitler's invitation to join the Axis (& rejected a deal on Danzig). Hitler decided on a war with Poland. Britain & France decided to support Poland. (but Hitler thought they were bluffing) Hitler needed to deal w Russia before he invaded Poland and that was solved by the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of August 1939. Rjensen (talk) 01:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Ideas about Poland section--to Sept 1939: [rough draft by RJ] The German invasion of Poland started the war, and historians agree that Hitler was the main actor. Hitler 1933-39 improved relationships with Poland, ignoring the anti-Polish attitudes of his foreign ministry and his Army. Hitler did have long term plans for lebensraum in Soviet Union, but according to Weinberg, had no such long-range plans for Poland. A nonaggression pact was signed in 1934. The trade wars of the 1920s ended and Germany became Poland’s leading trading partner. In the Czechoslovakian crisis of 1938, Poland pursued an independent policy that was also hostile to Czechoslovakia, and resulted in Poland's seizure of Czech territories in Teschin that were largely inhabited by Poles. Germany gave Poland 60 million marks in trade credits in late 1938, to facilitate the trade of German machinery and Polish agricultural products. In a series of top-level meetings in the winter of 1938-39, Germany proposed a package deal that would return the city of Danzig to Germany (since 1919 Danzig had been under the auspices of the League of Nations, with Poland having a major voice), build a highway/railway connection between the main part of Germany and East Prussia, and compensate Poland with unspecified territories to the south. The nonaggression pact of 1934 would be extended, and, most important, Poland would join with the axis powers in an anti-Soviet coalition. Warsaw decided that the proposals would make Poland a second-class satellite of Germany, and virtually end its independence. The negotiations ended abruptly as Poland rejected all of the proposals, and warned that a change in the status of Danzig would mean war. Poland secured guarantees from Britain and France in April 1939 to the effect that they would declare war if Germany invaded Poland. Hitler now reversed course, decided to make Poland his major expansion objective in the East, and ordered the army to prepare to invade by late summer. The Soviet Union in the summer of 1939 held negotiations simultaneously with Britain and France, and with Germany. Britain and France had little new to offer, and Poland rejected the idea of allowing Soviet troops to use its territory in a war with Germany. Germany on the other hand proposed a new partition of Poland, while also giving Stalin a freehand in the Baltic countries. Moscow and Berlin signed the Molotov--Ribbentrop pact in late August 1939, and the world knew that war was imminent. Germany invaded Poland on September 1, Britain and France declared war on September 3, the Soviets invaded Poland on September 17, and the Polish government fled into exile. [sources: Steiner, Weinberg, Kershaw, Evans, , Burleigh, Overy. DC Watt, Richard Watt, Karski, Kochanski, Wandycz, Davies, Prazmowska, Roberts (1953), Cinciala & Stachura] Rjensen (talk) 04:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Unacceptable synsthesis. Who says what, and on what pages? Please use citations after a particular sentence, not end of para; this mess of a citation allows one to say anything. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Completely unacceptable as it removes current sourced content about Hitler's hostile views towards Poland before the war, his territorial demands from early on towards Poland and plans to annex its western part(also sourced) and sourced information about Nazi preparations for extermination and aggression towards Poland. Your version POV pushes blame for war on Poland and also falsely claims that Poland rejected all proposals which again can be proven false by using sources. For exemple Cienciala that you use says that Poles were ready to negotiate terms with Hitler so it seems your use of sources is selective.

"The British government had asked the Poles a few days earlier if they were ready to negotiate, to which Beck said yes -- providing the terms were not contrary to vital Polish interests, (which were: Danzig to continue to exist as a Free City, and the Polish Corridor to continue to be part of Poland)." When Ambassador Lipski went to see Ribbentrop on August 30, he was presented with Hitler’s demands. Ribbentrop asked the Ambassador if he had full powers to sign. When Lipski said he had come to receive the German terms, Ribbentrop ended the meeting. The German radio then broadcast Hitler's demands with the comment that Poland had rejected them.* [2] --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 07:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I will write my version later this day using sources.. Thank you --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 07:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

we'll resume this later--I'm off to UK to give a history paper and do some research. Let me add that I don't find that MyMoloboaccount's sources regarding Hitler are very good. All the major biographies & research studies of Hitler disagree. As for Aug 30, 1939, the hour had passed--I don't think anyone was able to change positions by then---war was certain. Rjensen (talk) 09:36, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

One final comment: it is wrong to say "Up until 1933 the foreign policy of Hitler included not only restoration of 70,000 square kilometres lost by Germany in First World War(including to POland), but annexation of up to 500,000 square kilometres for German colonization; he intended to gain this territory by war [ref Germany, Hitler, and World War II: Essays in Modern German and World History

Gerhard L. Weinberg, page 35]" 1) Weinberg does not mention Poland on p 35; 2) weinberg says Hitler repeatedly rejected any return to the borders of 1914. The business about Hitler wanting Polish territory is not in the source. Weinberg is a leading authority here & he makes clear that Hitler wanted Russian lands "the major areas to be conquered lay in Russia...Hitler did not pay nearly so much attention to Poland" (p 42)... the key point is that Hitler saw Poland as a useful ally that could provide hundreds of thousands of soldiers for his wars. Rjensen (talk) 09:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

So use you use Cienciala, but after it is pointed out she doesn't support your theories it now becomes not a very good source or is not relevant. Sorry but that is very selective use of sources. As to Weinberg-that is not what he writes as he mentions clearly that Hitler wanted to go beyond 1914 borders of Germany(and they included Polish territories). He also clearly writes on following pages that Hitler wanted to colonize Eastern Europe and remove people living there. On page 36 he clearly cites Hitler as saying that Nazi intend to go beyond 10 or 1000 kilometers beyond present lines of Germany.

Let's see your other points:

• >Hitler 1933-39 improved relationships with Poland

Officially maybe. Unofficially Nazi Germany prepared lists of Poles to execute and organized military organizations within Poland for invasion, this started from 1935-all of this can be sourced.

• >ignoring the anti-Polish attitudes of his foreign ministry and his Army

Not really, we can add sources that even before coming to power Hitler was supportive of anti-Polish sentiments and issued territorial demands against Poland or supported murder of Polish activists. Also your version ignores the reason why Hitler's demands to Poland were unacceptable to Polish side-as they would cut off its access to the sea and two thirds of its international trade allowing Nazis to economically strangle Poland. Instead you write very POV statement that "Warsaw decided it would reduce it to satellite status". No-that these demands were to reduce Poland to satellite status is an accepted view of mainstream historians and sources will be provided supporting this(here is what Cienciala-which you brought up as source- has to say regarding this: "Neither the Polish government nor public opinion could agree to this or to an extraterritorial German Corridor through the Polish Corridor, because then Germany could choke off Poland’s access to the sea. Furthermore, even a narrow German corridor through Polish Corridor would mean putting Polish people under German rule. (Many still remembered the heavy-handed Germanization policies in former Prussian, now western Poland.)" Or this"Ribbentrop’s proposal seems quite reasonable. However, we know what Hitler’s real intentions were from information given by the Danzig "Gauleiter" (Party district leader) Albert Forster (1902-1950) to the League of Nations High Commissioner in Danzig, Carl Jakob Burckhardt (1891-1974, in Danzig 1937-39). In November 1938, Forster told him what he had just heard from Hitler: The Fuhrer said he would guarantee Polish frontiers for his own lifetime - but only if the Poles were "reasonable like the Czechs." Burckhardt heard the same phrase from German State Secretary Ernst von Weizsacker when he visited Berlin in December 1938. Thus, it is clear that Hitler’s aim was to make Poland subservient to Germany"

• To sum up your version makes impression that Hitler's attempts were reasonable but Poland wasn't.

I may also add that your version completely hides the genocidal aspect of Hitler's actions against Poles and Jews in Poland which were planned long before September 1939. I will draft my version in the evening today. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

There is clearly a need to provide a summary of German-Polish pre-war negotiations, but just a summary. The Poland section contains far too much pre-war material and opinion presented as fact. Needs mass culling.Rsloch (talk) 16:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Please can we limit material to the topic of the article, diplomatic relations during the Second World War. Rsloch (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Turkey

Why is Turkey entered in 1944 as opening war on Germany when a declaration of war (without actual participation) occurred only in 1945? 91.98.113.164 (talk) 12:35, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

the text has it right " By August 1944, with Germany nearing defeat, Turkey broke off relations. In February 1945, it declared war on Germany and Japan...." The table indicates the date of break in 1944 Rjensen (talk) 12:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

NPOV - Anti-Soviet propaganda?

"Their policy was neutrality until August 1939, followed by friendly relations with Germany in order to carve up Eastern Europe."

Why

• is the article missing http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html ?
• is it proclaiming as the reason for the "friendly relations with Germany" the allegation "in order to carve up Eastern Europe"?

91.9.108.235 (talk) 14:46, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

• a) the Russian claim has not been accepted by RS: to quote the source listed: "Professor Donald Cameron Watt, author of How War Came - widely seen as the definitive account of the last 12 months before war began - said the details were new, but said he was sceptical about the claim that they were spelled out during the meetings. "There was no mention of this in any of the three contemporaneous diaries, two British and one French - including that of Drax," he said. "I don't myself believe the Russians were serious." Watt is saying there is no evidence that the USSR actually made the offer that is outlined in a draft in its archives. b) the text follows what the RS give. The RS point out that Stalin seized half of Poland, and the Baltic states per agreement with Hitler. that is the basis of " carve up Eastern Europe". Rjensen (talk) 17:21, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

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