Talk:Early life and career of Joe Biden

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

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• Article history

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Joe Biden in the 1950s

• ... that in his early life, Joe Biden was known by his classmates for his cramming abilities? (Source: Current Biography Yearbook 1987, p. 43)
  • ALT1:... that in his early life, Joe Biden played football and baseball? (Source: The Daily Pennsylvanian)
  • ALT2:... that in his early life, future President of the United States Joe Biden was his preparatory school's class president? (Source: Witcover, Joe Biden, pp. 26–27)

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/I Knew You Were Trouble

Created by Ganesha811 (talk). Nominated by AllegedlyHuman (talk) at 02:59, 29 June 2021 (UTC).

• I don't think this is eligible. Per WP:DYK: a "new" article is no more than seven days old, and may not consist of text spun off from a pre-existing article and The content with which the article has been expanded must be new content, not text copied from other articles. As this is spin-off from Joe Biden, it isn't eligible in its current form. It would be if promoted to GA status, though. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• @Ganesha811 and AllegedlyHuman: Will either of you be able to bring this to GA? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:19, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Narutolovehinata5, there is an ongoing GA nomination. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 13:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Changing icon to a more appropriate one pending the result of the GA nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:17, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

– The article has been reviewed per GA criteria and it is listed as a GA. New DYK review required. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
• Other problems:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article is a recent GA, long enough and seems neutral. Earwig is not picking up any real copyvio (although I did see some mirror sites and quotes pop up). The hooks are interesting, assuming good faith on the offline citations. Photo is free, in the article and looks good. qpq is done so I think we can finally promote this nom! BuySomeApples (talk) 21:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Hot damn, congrats to all! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 07:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

To T:DYK/P7

Detailed article for incorporation

This Washington Post article (What a lifeguarding job on the black side of Wilmington taught Joe Biden about race) has a ton of great detail that can be incorporated into the page and used to sort out some details re: Biden's time in Wilmington and participation in the civil rights movement. Written by Robert Samuels in 2019. Ganesha811 (talk) 13:27, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Early life and career of Joe Biden/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kavyansh.Singh (talk · contribs) 13:54, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
Nominator: Wasted Time R (talk · contribs) at 11:47, 4 July 2021
Co–Nominator: Ganesha811 (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hi @Wasted Time R and Ganesha811: Thanks for creating and nominating this article. I'll review this per Good article criteria. Expect comments by tomorrow. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:54, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Kavyansh.Singh, thanks for reviewing it! I should be available to respond to your comments along Wasted Time R. Ganesha811 (talk) 14:22, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Section-wise comments

Overall

• Overall, the article is well written and well cited.
• The Earwig's copyvio detector detects over 30% similarity for quite a few websites, but it appears that the website has copied Wikipedia. Still look if you can make any changes.
  • Fixed - took a look through and I don't think any changes need to be made - some quotes from individuals, etc.
• I'll suggest to add any image as the lead image (just a suggestion)
  • Possibly fixed? - I've added a 1965 image opposite the lead section - let me know what you think.
    • Looks completely fine to me – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 06:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• I noticed that the article is inconsistent with the used of definite and indefinite articles. At various ,instances like "entered Syracuse University College of Law", "at St. Mary's Hospital", "attended Syracuse University", etc; definite article (the) is not used. While at other instances, like "the University of Delaware", "the Archmere Academy", etc.; definite article is used. A quick check would definitely be helpful to address this issue.
  • Fixed - in usual usage, some nouns take definite articles and others do not. I've done a check through and made a few modifications where appropriate.

Lead

• The lead seems pretty strong, as it accurately summarizes the topic; just a few nitpicks.
• ".. Biden, an unexceptional student, earned ..." – I don't quite feel that "unexceptional" should be mentioned in the lead (though I agree to it's use in the prose)
  • Fixed - removed.
• "In 1968, Biden earned a Juris Doctor from Syracuse University College of Law, ranked 76th in his class of 85." → "In 1968, Biden earned a Juris Doctor degree from the Syracuse University College of Law, ranked 76th in his class of 85 students."
  • Fixed - replaced.
• ".. his second wife, Jill Jacobs - they have ..." – replace the dash with by {{endash}}
  • Fixed - replaced.

Early life and education

• Ref#1 – Change the page number from 5 to 4-5. The hospital is mentioned on page no 4
  • Fixed
• Ref#3 – The url as well as the archived link shows "content is no longer available". I'll suggest adding an older archived link. (this)
  • Fixed
  • I added the archived link.
• Since you have added link to almost all the newspapers and websites in the citations, add a link to Huffington Post in Ref#5 for consistency
  • Added
• "Biden's father had led an affluent lifestyle earlier .... prospered during World War II." – Split into two sentences
  • Split.
• "After the war was over the business failed, however, and several attempts by Biden's father to start his own businesses faltered." → "After the war was over, the business failed, and several attempts by Biden's father to start his own businesses faltered."
  • Replaced.
• "Biden made several lifelong ..." – Replace "Biden" with "he"
  • Fixed - replaced.
• Replace "2008-08-31" in Ref#15 with "August 31, 2008" to be consistent with the date style. Check for other instances of the same.
  • Fixed - replaced, found and fixed several other refs.
• Link The New York Times in Ref#14
  • Linked.

@Wasted Time R and Ganesha811: – Will continue with another sections once these issues are fixed. The list of quibbles look pretty long, just because I have been too nitpicky; but believe me, the article is in a really good shape! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:39, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

These issues should be fixed now - just looking for a good image option so we don't have to reuse one that's already in the article. Thanks for your thorough comments so far. Ganesha811 (talk) 19:15, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Continuing

• I did some minor copy-edit. The sources seem to verify the information, and I see no further issues.
• Maybe merge those 2–3 line paragraphs to other paras.

• Merged.

• Link Politico in Ref#41

• Linked.

• "not uncommon" – you mean "common"?

• Comment: - "not uncommon", weirdly, isn't really a synonym for "common". It means that it wasn't unheard of or unusual, but not as frequent as common.

• I'll suggest to convert the text inside parenthesis ex. "(This incident would attract ....... both schools.)", "(Biden has been defeated in some presidential primary and caucus contests)" to footnotes using {{efn}}.

• Fixed? I think I did this successfully - haven't done it before.

• "Biden was admitted to the ... – Replace "Biden" by "He"

• Fixed.

• "While still not a major participant in the civil rights movement, in the 1962–63 timeframe Biden did participate in a demonstration against the last remaining segregated theater in Wilmington." → "While still not a major participant in the civil rights movement, in the During the early 1960s, Biden participated in a demonstration against the last remaining segregated theater in Wilmington."

• Replaced.

• A quick check of links in citations for consistency would likely solve the issue. We have various citation in Ref#50 to Ref#60's range requiring links to newspapers/websites. Though, not a major issue.

Early political career and family life

• Ref#61 has inconsistent date format

• Fixed.

• Rest, this section seems really well written, just some links and date formats need to be checked for consistency. I'll also suggest to merge the first and second subsection of this section. Rest, an expansion of the first subsection (First marriage and start of family) would also suffice.

• Headings changed.

Senate and recovery

• The image of Joe and Jilly Biden should be moved to "Recovery and second marriage" section.

• Moved.

• Link Ashley Biden. She has not been linked in the prose.

• Linked.

• Rest, I see no issues.

Other suggestions

• Some images lack ALT text. Consider adding it. (1)

• Added.

• @Wasted Time R and Ganesha811: The article is good overall. I'm putting the review on hold. Fix these issues, and I think we'll be good to go. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 06:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Image review

• I doubt the licencing for File:Joe Biden as a child playing baseball.jpg – It says that it is the work of an employee of the Executive Office of the President of the United States. I don't quite feel that.

• Agreed, I don't think being put on Instagram abrogates the original copyright. Removed.

• Rest all images seem to be OK. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 06:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Response to suggestions

• I've gone through these, let me know if there are any others! Ganesha811 (talk) 14:49, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Great! giving a second read now. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    • @Wasted Time R and Ganesha811: It seems to me that the article meets the GA criteria. So, I am passing this nomination. Great work! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Ganesha811 – The article has been listed as a GA. The DYK nomination can continue. Thanks for your and Waster Time R's efforts for creating and expanding this article. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thanks Kavyansh.Singh for the review and thanks especially Ganesha811 for handling all the responses – due to real life matters I've been unavailable for WP efforts lately. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Wasted Time R, congrats to you, since you wrote most of the article! Ganesha811 (talk) 00:55, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Two changes

I am going to make two changes.

• There was an omission that the second year when the Biden family was in Delaware, they moved to Arden. While not widely covered, this is where a bit of local knowledge helps. I happened have trod some of the same paths as Biden, having gone to Holy Rosary & having lived in Claymont, & later about a mile upstream of Arden. IMHO, the village of Arden is easily the most progressive & artsy locality in Delaware. Do not take my word about it, but read the Arden, Delaware to understand why it may have made an impression on a thirteen-year old Biden. I am adding no WP:OR, just the fact they moved to Arden in the second year & the citations, including reusing the already existing Cramer 1992.
• The other change will be to use the {{sfn}} template to link existing shortened footnotes to the full citations in the Cited bibliography section.
  Peaceray (talk) 17:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

  Peaceray, sounds good, as long as everything is all cited up, thanks for the improvements. Ganesha811 (talk) 19:58, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2023

Pretty well known that Joe does not have a double major and a minor. He actually has a Combo major in English and Political Science, which means he likely did not complete the requirements for any major at all, since these are not commonly joined majors, as Political Science and Economics might be.

2603:3015:E06:7200:240C:3AF0:8277:8D54 (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. If it is "pretty well known", feel free to provide WP:RS that show this. Both the SFgate source cited there and the wapo source cited in the next sentence report a double political science and history major. Neither source actually mentions an english minor. Looking further at the main Joe Biden article, one more source is cited - See How They Run: Electing the President in an Age of Mediaocracy. I don't have access to the book but searching for "english" on google books only shows 3 hits in that book, none of which refers to an academic minor. Going to remove the english minor mention from this page and the main article. If someone finds a good source to support the minor, feel free to revert. Cannolis (talk) 00:34, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Jill and Joe

It is an incorrect statement that the Bidens met on a blind date. Jill and her first husband both knew Joe and Nelia and helped campaign for him as he sought his first Senate seat. Additionally, you may want to research your claim that Jill and Joe were married in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not recognize divorce and wouldnt perform the Sacrament of Marriage between individuals when one of them are divorced. In the interest of being a serious and unbiased information source, Wikipedia should make corrections. Do your research to confirm my claim, and then please make changes. 2600:6C48:407F:1A72:DC53:1CF1:B2BB:D79C (talk) 00:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

On your latter point, if the Jill's first marriage did not occur in the Catholic Church, the marriage would not have been recognized, therefore the marriage of the Jill & Joe Biden could have taken place in the Catholic Church. Do you have a citation that indicates the marriage was not performed by a Catholic priest? Peaceray (talk) 01:18, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Noting that Biden himself claims they were married by a Catholic priest at the United Nations chapel in New York City in June 1977. Do you have any citations to the contrary? Peaceray (talk) 01:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

References