Talk:Edmund the Martyr

EtM article

I intend to make the article a 'good' one again. Small changes to the lead section already done.--Amitchell125 (talk) 17:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The article has been rewritten, pending a few sections that still need to be completed. Hel-hama (talk) 17:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Rewritten: 'Background' section to be added when completed, 'King of the East Angles' section needs expansion, other sections may need reducing. Hel-hama (talk) 22:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Toulouse?

The patron saint of Toulouse appears to be Saint Saturnin of Toulouse, not Edmund. I will be removing this unsubstantiated fact, unless I come across any evidence that it's true.--Amitchell125 (talk) 10:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC).

NPOV name

Britannica didn't use this name [1] and "Martyr" has a positive meaning. I think it must be changed:)Ladsgroup^بحث 02:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

If there is no objects i move the page to "Edmund (king of East Anglia)":)Ladsgroup^بحث 03:16, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

there will be many objections to this move. 1) can you explain why a saint, martyr and king who has always been called Edmund king and martyr should change. 2) I do not understand what positive meaning there is attached to the title martyr please explain so that I can begin to understand. 3) Britannia is just one encyclopaedia and so lists Edmund as that, if we go down that route there will be many articles to change. I recommend you put forward a request to change the title on the article ans await a concenus. Edmund Patrick – confer 09:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

1-because of WP:NPOV 2-read Martyr, Martyr is a hero who sacrifices his/her life for good. 3-Britannica is a natural and unbiased reliable source. When there is a NPOV title that is used in reliable sources, we must move article to this title:)Ladsgroup^بحث 18:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

and 2 is exactly what Edmund did, he refused to renounce his faith to others so was put to death so hence Martyr. And therefor 1 is irrelevant. When are you going to start to get a concenus on your proposal, I will bring this discussion to the attention of others to make a start.britania is I am afraid not a natural and unbiased source but one of many recognised sources. Edmund Patrick – confer 01:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Ladsgroup, the Introduction section of C. R. Moss's Ancient Christian Martyrdom (see link) contains a detailed analysis of the term martyr within its Christian context. It may help you to understand why Edmund was indeed martyred by the Vikings and why 'Edmund the Martyr' can be considered a valid title for the article. Please refer to Wikipedia:Requested moves for the correct procedure for you to use if you propose moving the page. Hel-hama (talk) 09:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Ladsgroup, these links may also put into context the name and therefore the title of this article. catholic encyclopedia and http://www.amazon.co.uk/St-Edmund-King-Martyr-Changing/dp/1903153263 and http://www.stedmundsbury.gov.uk/leisure-and-tourism/parks/abbey-gardens/history.cfm. Hope it helps. Edmund Patrick – confer 11:21, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

To the original proposer, there is objection to this page move. I would suggest that if this move is to be taken seriously, a proposal is added at WP:RM. That way we can all add our opinions. Simply waiting for one day over Christmas for opinion on this talk page and then deciding to move the page is an incorrect decision. Please, User:Ladsgroup, look at the above discussion and if necessary, start a move discussion. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:50, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

"Edmund's death according to Abbo of Fleury"

The text contained within the pink box bearing this title purports to be a translation of a passage in Abbo of Fleury's work. Compared with Abbo's latin as published from British Library MS Cotton Tiberius B.ii, in the text edited by Michael Winterbottom for the Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies at Toronto in 1972, however, it is really a brutally crude and inaccurate paraphrase - unless it is a translation of some inferior divergent text. In any case, it should not be referenced as 'Abbo of Fleury', which it isn't, and it seems to be both wholly unreliable and actually in places offensive. Unless someone can justify it, it should be taken out of the article at once, and preferably replaced with an accurate translation. Can anyone defend its retention? Eebahgum (talk) 09:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Translating from the latin is well beyond me so I have assumed that it was correct in as much as latin scholars always seem to have slight variations on translations. The idea does serve a use within the article so please remove and replace and if you feel it necessary get second opinions / verification from here that way may lead to less possible arguements Edmund Patrick – confer 14:34, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Text amended to match the source, which is reputable. I'm not quite why the two texts were so different. Hel-hama 15:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Thankyou, but alas it doesn't help me at all as it bears no more relation to the latin text usually attributed to Abbo than the previous version did. Could you please name your latin source in the edition you are using? For the benefit and judgement of all editors, I here transcribe the text from Abbo as it is published (see citation following), to show how very unlike it is to what appears without specific reference in the article. This is the latin of Abbo, verbatim:

"Tunc sanctus rex Eadmundus in palatio ut membrum Christi proiectis armis capitur, et uinculis artioribus artatus constringitur, atque innocens sistitur ante impium ducem, quasi Christus ante Pilatum praesidem, cupiens eius sequi uestigia qui pro nobis immolatus est hostia. Uinctus itaque multis modis illuditur, ac tandem fustigatus acri instantia perducitur ad quandam arborem uicinam. Ad quam religatus flagris dirissimis diutissime uexatur, nec uincitur, semper Christum inuocando flebilibus uocibus. Quare aduersarii in furorem uersi quasi ludendo ad signum eum toto corpore sagittarum telis confodiunt, multiplicantes acerbitatem cruciatus crebris telorum iactibus, quoniam uulnera uulneribus imprimebant dum iacula iaculis locumdabant. Sicque factum est ut spiculorum terebratis aculeis circumfossus palpitans horreret, uelut asper herecius aut spinis hirtus carduus, in passione similis Sebastiano egregio martyri. Cumque nec sic Hinguar furcifer eum lanistis assensum prebere conspiceret, Christum inclamantem iugiter, lictori mandat protinus ut amputet caput eius. Ille seminecem, cui adhuc vitalis calor palpitat in tepido pectore, ut uix posset subsistere, auellit cruento stipiti festinus, auulsumque retectis costarum latebris praepunctionibus crebris ac si raptum equuleo aut seuis tortum ungulis iubet caput extendere, quod semper fuerat insigne regali diademate. Cumque staret mitissimus, ut aries de toto grege electus, uolens felici commertio mutare uitam saeculo, diuinis intentus beneficiis, iam recreabatur uisione internae lucis, qua in agone positus satiari cupiebat attentius: unde inter uerba orationis eum arrepto pugione spiculator uno ictu decapitando hac luce priuauit."

The published source is: M. Winterbottom (Ed.), ('Passio Sancti Eadmundi Regis et Martyris', as 'Abbo, Life of St. Edmund, from Ms Cotton Tiberius B.ii') in Three Lives of English Saints, Toronto Medieval Latin Texts, (Centre for Medieval Studies, Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, Toronto 1972, pp. 65-87 (text), textual analysis at pp. 8-11 and notes at pp. 91-92.) This might be translated about as follows (with apologies for 'howlers'):

"Then the holy king Edmund, weapons cast away, was captured in the palace as a limb of Christ, and was narrowly constrained with tight chains, and was brought innocent before the impious leader, like Christ before presiding Pilate, wishing to follow the footsteps of Him who was sacrificed as a victim for us. Thus bound, therefore, he was abused in many ways, but however having been sharply beaten with sticks for some time, he was led to a certain tree nearby. When he had been tied up again to this he was for a long time distressed by the direst scourges, but he was not overcome, always calling upon Christ with tearful cries. The adversaries, being turned to fury because of this, at a sign as if in sport transfixed him in his whole body with the shafts of arrows, multiplying the bitterness of torment by the repeated throwing of spears, so that wounds pressed upon wounds as missiles gave way to missiles. Thus it happened that, convulsing, he bristled, pierced about with the penetrating points of the darts, prickly like the hedgehog or bristly with spines like the thistle, in a suffering like that of the exceptional martyr Sebastian. And when the wretch Hinguar perceived that he could not thus by tortures gain the submission of Edmund, who was simultaneously calling upon Christ, he commanded his officer forthwith to cut off his head. He ordered that the half-dead man, the vital warmth shuddering in his fainting breast so that he could barely stand, and torn with open wounds in his sides from the repeated piercing, should have his head put forth, which still wore the royal diadem insignia, bound like a colt or wild horse. And when he stood most mildly, like the ram chosen from the whole flock, wishing by a happy commerce to exchange the life of the world, and prepared for the divine rewards, he was then refreshed by the vision of internal light, with which he more assiduously desired to be filled, being in his agony: so that while his words of prayer were being spoken, the swordsman, having drawn his sword and cutting off his head with one blow, deprived him of that light."

Of course I don't insist on my own translation (improvements welcome), or indeed upon anything, except that if the article is going to present a text as being that of Abbo, then it really ought to be what Abbo wrote and not something else. We really do need to know exactly where that text in the article has come from, and what its authority is - and, if it has none, to be rid of it. Eebahgum (talk) 22:38, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you Eebahgum: the source is http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/870abbo-edmund.asp. Is there not a published translation of the above Latin text available? Hel-hama (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2014(UTC)

Thankyou Hel-hama. So, Aelfric (and his translator) are responsible for the paraphrase. Perhaps I should have spoken more kindly of his efforts (though they don't do justice to Abbo)! I regret I don't know where to look for a published English version from Abbo's Latin, but that is just because I am out-of-touch. I am sure there must be one.Eebahgum (talk) 08:23, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is the only source?

The article currentls says:

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle,..is the only source for a description of the events ...By tradition the leaders who slew the king were Hingwar and his brother Hubba.

But what about Ragnarssona þáttr? It says:

After this battle, Ivar made himself king over that part of England which his forbears had owned before him. He had two brothers born out of wedlock, one called Yngvar, the other Husto. They tortured King Edmund the Saint on Ivar’s orders, and then he took his kingdom.

Am I missing something here? Snori (talk) 02:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Also Ari Thorgilssons reference to the event in the Islendingabok.. this article seems to be overly dependent on the ASC... Dakinijones (talk) 21:34, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

I have deleted the comment about the Chronicle being the only source. The whole article needs revision based on reliable secondary sources, and I do not know whether there are any which take account of Scandinavian sagas. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:34, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Year of Death

"The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which generally described few matters relating to the East Angles and their rulers, is the only source for a description of the events for the year 869 that led to the defeat of Edmund's army at the hands of the Danes."

This needs changing. Edmund was killed in 870 when Ivar and his army won a battle at Thetford. The traditional date of Edmund's execution/murder is 20th November that year. Source: Anglo-Saxon Chronicle ed. Michael Swanton.

86.140.163.219 (talk) 19:52, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Dantes Warden

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dead link removed and replaced with working link. Edmund Patrick – confer 07:27, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

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Comment on three teeth moved from article to Talk

In 1966, three teeth from the collection of relics from France were donated to Douai Abbey. This last sentence is incorrect.

In 1966 Archbishop Gabriel-Marie Garonne of Toulouse sent the Rev Bryan Richard Staples Houghton, the parish priest of St Edmund’s Catholic Church, Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, three loose teeth from St Edmund’s upper jaw. Source: Saint Edmund King and Martyr. 1970. P.83. Bryan Houghton. Published by Terence Dalton Limited ISBN 900963182.

In the publication 'Christian Order' Bryan Houghton clarifies the statement made in his book: “The three teeth at Bury. I had made all the arrangements with Cardinal Garonne and had hoped to be one of the “notaries” to verify the “translation” of the relics. We had even settled the date at which I was to be present at Toulouse. Unfortunately he had been appointed in the meantime to be the Prefect of the Congregation for Catholic Education in Rome. His overworked auxiliary transferred the relics at his convenience without waiting for me. He assured me that he had enclosed a properly certified “authentication” in the sealed box containing the three teeth....When I was P.P. of Bury St. Edmunds, the relics were duly incensed on St. Edmund’s Day on the Sunday within the Octave. At Benediction, the faithful duly kissed the box containing the relics. I had intended to erect a transparent safe beside the monument to St. Edmund. But time ran too fast for me.” Christian Order - Read - Features - January 2013 www.christianorder.com/features/features_2013/features... Cached January 2013 . The Little Box from Toulouse The Relics of St Edmund In 1966 a small wooden box arrived in Bury St ...

Bryan Houghton retired as the parish priest of St.Edmund’s Parish on 29th November 1969, before he was able to complete this task. He settled in Viviers, France. Before his death on the 29th.September 1992 in Montelimar, he returned to Bury St Edmunds. He took the little box containing the three loose teeth to Douai Abbey, Woolhampton, Berkshire ,a Benedictine community, for safe keeping. This fact was confirmed the Geoffrey Scott, Abbot of Douai on the 29th.September 2012. Rt Rev Dom Geoffrey Scott - Catholic Diocese of Portsmouth ... www.portsmouthdiocese.org.uk/directory/person/875.htm User:Michael Peyton

The text above was incorrectly placed in the article and I have moved it to Talk. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Referencing style

This article uses footnote-style references but, with the exception of a recent addition, does not use the {{sfn}} / {{harv}} templates, which provide convenient links for the reader from each footnote to the cited source in the bibliography section. Unless there are objections I propose to convert the existing references to use the harv & sfn templates. Thoughts? Wham2001 (talk) 11:37, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

As the editor who added the sfn ref, I obviously would be happy with the change. I prefer the sfn format to the harv one, but that is a personal preference. Is there a reason you suggest using both? Dudley Miles (talk) 13:40, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Dudley Miles sorry, I wasn't clear; I was intending to use {{sfn}} unless it was necessary to use {{harv}}. I generally prefer sfn because it's more compact, but there's the odd thing that, as far as I can tell, one can't do with it (e.g. two references to the same page of a source with different quotations or parenthetical notes). At a glance I don't see anything of that sort in this article, though. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 16:10, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I am not sure why sfn would ever be used for notes. I always use {{efn}}. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:20, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Since there have been no objections I'm going to get started on the conversion. Wham2001 (talk) 09:10, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Second sentence is odd

Why does the second sentence say that he is incorrectly referred to as the first patron saint of England? The reference cited does not say that.86.136.209.221 (talk) 21:10, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

This is an excellent question, and I am not sure how that got in there. I am going to look around a bit, but if I don't find anything, I'll change it if someone hasn't either beaten me to the punch or substantiated that wording. Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 21:23, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Cor to revisit this subject after all these years! Can I ask that everybody who hasn't to read through archive one of this topic and see the many many discussions about whether St Edmund was the Patron saint of England. There are enough reliable references to put forward that he was the patron saint of what was called England at the time. Happy to assist. Edmund Patrick – confer 07:08, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Edmund Patrick, but whatever we decide about the truth value of the claim, it is certainly the case that the current citation does not support the sentence as worded. Do you think the sentence should be reworded? Or perhaps can suggest another source? It would be appreciated! Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Definitely reworded as there are many acceptable sources for saying that he was the patron saint. I will put some here soon once real life allows me to. Edmund Patrick – confer 20:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Death of St Edmund at Hailston or Haegelisdun - sounds like modern Harleston

This article http://www.facesofarthur.org.uk/fabio/app3.htm relates the legend that Edmund was captured at Hoxne, Suffolk, and also says that according to an historic source he was killed in a place that sounds like modern Harleston. There is Harleston, Norfolk, and Harleston, Suffolk. Harleston, Norfolk, is not very far from Hoxne. Also, information board number eight, downloadable here, https://www.hoxnehistory.org.uk/HHW.php describes St Edmunds Cross on the site where a possible arrowhead was found in an ancient oak tree, and mentions a chapel to him built near his place of death. I do not have any historical knowledge or expertise so I cannot evaluate the probability of any of this being true. 92.24.184.68 (talk) 10:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)