Talk:Esotericism in Germany and Austria

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Reason for this article

Some readers will probably not be sure what the use of this article is supposed to be. Well, there was this section on Esotericism in Nazi Germany in the article Nazi occultism, that did not really belong there. Because of the differences between that what is understood as Esotericism and that what is understood as Religion, I did not want to merge it into Nazism and Religion, and the suppression of Esotericism in nazi germany is difficult to explain without referring its connection to Ariosophy and Nazi Occultism, which should better be done in its own article. Also I realized that this article would be the best way to make all the various articles on German occultist and esotericist accessible. Zara1709 13:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is rune theory?

In the middle of the Nazi section is this sentence:

In 1936, Friedrich Bernhard Marby, who had developed his own rune theories after reading the literature of Guido von List, was arrested and sent to a concentration camp.

What is a "rune" theory? I did some searching and first found Runic alphabet then found a disambiguator which eventually led me to Runic divination. That seems somewhat related to the topic of this article so my best guess is that rune theory has something to do with Runic divinations. If I'm right you might add a wikilink. If I'm wrong, then perhaps you could explain just what "rune theory" is. Sbowers3 17:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's more to it than divination. In occult runelore, to which Marby has made an important (even seminal) contribution, the runes are symbols which embody dynamic powers that energize the cosmos. These energies can be manipulated or channeled by various magical operations using the symbols. The runes can also serve as a focus for meditation since the same powers exist within oneself.

Guido von List's rune theory included an entire discipline of turbocharged folk-etymology which analysed words and names into rune-correlated syllables to yield their secret meanings, as well as a method of interpreting heraldic designs by reading the runic shapes encoded within them. What Marby (and also Kummer) added to List's theory was to develop a practical system of rune-magic, especially by devising forms of yoga/gymnastics which involved contorting oneself into postures which imitate the runes whilst yodelling their names as lustily as possible!

Marby's own article is informative about rune-gymnastics, but it's already linked. The trouble is, none of the other relevant articles (on List, Kummer and Ariosophy) have much at all to say about any of this (yet!) so I don't know what you could usefully link "rune-theories" to. Gnostrat 11:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This stuff is somewhere in chapter 13 of Goodrick-Clarke. Goodrick-Clarke does not use the term 'rune theory', but he uses the term 'rune occultism'. If you want to link something for this, try Armanen runes at the moment. The thing is, I am not sure how far Marby and one other auther qualify as Ariosophists - they were strongly influenced by List and moved in the ariosophic 'scene', but they were apparently not as racists as List or Lanz. I think I can probably at [add] this later this day. Zara1709 12:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see if I can add it now. If you check pages 177 and 192 of the book, you will see that Goodrick-Clakre speaks of "Armanists; Ariosophists and rune occultists" when he summarizes what he has presented in the preceding chapters. Zara1709 13:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I linked "rune-theories" as suggested; we could perhaps expand Armanen runes later to include a section on the system's later development by people like Marby.

Separating off 'Ariosophists' from 'rune occultists' looks pretty artificial because of the massive overlap. A composite section title like 'Ariosophy and rune occultists' will cover everybody without fear of controversy. In any case, if we're going with the broad definition of Ariosophy, Marby fits. You are assuming that 'racism' is necessary to qualify as an Ariosophist, but (1) racism is notoriously problematic to define, and can be very subjective; and (2) it's a sliding scale. List was not as racist as Lanz, for example, and no doubt Spiesberger is less racist than any of them. Marby is fact openly expressed his support for the Nazis, especially in 1935 — and then was interned the very next year as an "anti-Nazi occultist"! This is a subject fraught with such ironies. Gnostrat 14:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know that this topic is difficult to disentangle, and also that the question of racism is difficult. I would like to have first the general connection to esotericsm sorted out here, we cann then see, what can be moved. Zara1709 14:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Lumenclub and the ONT were Nazi

Ok, here is the direct quote from Goodrick-Clarke: "The Lumenclub issued its own broadsheet and convened lectures and acted as a growth centre for the illegal Nazi party in Austria in the year preceding the downfall of the Republic and the Anschluss with Germany in March 1938. However, despite their modest contribution to the rise of Austrian fascism, the Lumenclub and the ONT were suppressed by the Gestapo in March 1942, according to a party edict of December 1938 applying to many sectarian groups." Zara1709 17:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Added citation needed to the segment titled "Move away from earlier Nazi esotericism". This segment lacks citation and seems only to serve a personal interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jäger von Lügen (talk • contribs) 20:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article contains some striking inaccuracies

Example of these is the name Carl Reichenbach under the heading of "Esotericists in Nazi Germany". Reichenbach died in 1869, long before there was a Nazi Germany.

Another inaccuracy is in the sentence "His periodical Lotusblüten (Lotus Blossoms, 1892–1900) was the first German publication to use the theosophical swastika on its cover.[14]" There is no such thing as a "theosophical swastika". Theosophy refers to symbols from various religions but the swastika has no particular meaning within the theosophical movement. I have yet to read "The Occult Roots of Nazism: The Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935" by Goodrick-Clarke, which is given as reference [14] here.

Another remarkable sentence is "A German Theosophical Society, as a branch of the International Theosophical Brotherhood, then was established in 1896 when the American theosophists around William Quan Judge, Katherine Tingley, E. T. Hargrove and C. F. Wright travelled through Europe.[14]", again supported by note [14]. The International Theosophical Brotherhood was itself a German theosophical organisation (despite the name) founded by Franz Hartmann, following W.Q. Judge and K. Tingley (and the American Section) when they split from the TS in 1895. The German Theosophical Society was not a branch of this organisation. Perhaps the problem is indeed an unreliable source. Ingmardb (talk) 19:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]