Talk:Frieda Van Themsche

Nazi SS

Luc, I really don't know what you are up to. The last week, I started to believe that you were reasonable, but writing that somebody was a member of the Nazi SS without evidence, and lying about a reference that most Wikipedians cannot understand, that is no longer POV in my eyes. That is pure and blatant vandalism. If the concerned person was still alive, he could probably even sue you in real life for this. Do something like this one more time, and I will no longer write these things here, but on the talkpage of an admin. 1652186 17:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you meant NPOV.

If a Fleming fought against the communists at the Eastern Front during WWII, he did that as a volunteer member of the Flemish Legion, which was the 6th SS Volunteer Sturmbrigade Langemarck.

Please don't try and change history. --LucVerhelst 17:40, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh no, I meant POV all right. There's NPOV, then there's POV and then there's vandalism, that's what you did here. The reference, nor any other thing I have ever heard, read or seen, has ever mentioned or even suggested that Van Themsche was a member of the Flemish Legion. Really, if it were true, don't you think the left side of Belgium would have that mentioned and broadcasted 24/7? 1652186 19:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand about the POV-thing.

About grandfather Van Themsche. Please read some history books. Do you know of any Fleming fighting against the "godless communists" that was not in the Flemish Legion ? That's the big drama for the Flemish Movement : a lot of naive Flemish boys were lured into the Waffen SS by (among others) the catholic church to fight the god-less communists. This is one of the reasons the French-speakers and the Belgian establishment were able to keep of the legitimate demands of the Flemish people for so long : "the Flemish ? They are all nazis!". Or did you forget about the "Brüssel"-posters by the FDF ? Maybe you're not old enough.

Please read up on the history of Flanders. --LucVerhelst 19:40, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

You also might want to read nl:Oostfront in the Dutch Wikipedia.--LucVerhelst 20:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything in the world I care less about than what the FDF puts on its posters. Yes, maybe I'm too young to understand how you people feel about all this, but maybe you are to old to realize that, while the horrors of WWII should never be forgotten, you should also not let every daily decision be based on an irrational fear that the Belgian right wing is planning a violent ethnic cleansing. You should also not forget that Nazi stands for National Socialist: Hitler was extreme left, not right, just like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the vast majority of other mass murderers.

To get back on topic: even if one day you could prove that grandfather Van Themsche fought in the Flemish Legion, there's a heck of a difference between saying that he fought against the communists or with the Germans. You could equally well say that Guy Verhofstadt supported Saddam Hussain because he opposed the war on Iraq. 1652186 10:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you serious ?

On the Eastern Front, you had two parties, the German Army, and the Russians. If you fought the communists, i.e. the Russians, you were part of the German Army, which was the Waffen SS. Unless, of course, you can convince us that there was a third party, apart from the Germans, fighting the Russians.

Of course, if you believe that Hitler was extreme left... --LucVerhelst 10:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically, there were a few forces that fought the Nazis and the Soviets, such as the Ukrainian Insurgent Army - but I doubt a Flemish volunteer would have gone to join them. I agree with Luc, and think the page should say he joined the Waffen SS. However, the Dutch page seems to say the Flemish Legion was dissolved into other Waffen SS units later in the war, so unless we know when he fought, just "Waffen SS" is safer than Flemish Legion. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 13:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point in using "Waffen SS" in stead of "Flemish Legion". But I feel it should be changed to "Flemish Legion" if possible. Mentioning the SS in an article on a contemporary member of parliament (albeit someone from the Vlaams Belang) is of rather bad taste...

If you read the article on 6th SS Volunteer Sturmbrigade Langemarck, to which Flemish Legion redirects, you'll notice that although it changed it's name (from Nordwest to Flandern to Langemarck, "Legion Flandern" = Flemish Legion), it remained a distinct part of the Waffen SS until it's surrender to the Soviets on 8 May 1945. I think this warrants the use of the name "Flemish Legion" here.

What do you think ? --LucVerhelst 14:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this in working on the disputed tag, below. I actually do want to use a word that would immediately explain the situation - the words "Flemish Legion" are fairly obscure, while Waffen SS is more widely recognizable. (There could well have been units called "flemish legions" on any side of pretty much any European war since Charlemagne ... but there was only one Waffen SS.) You can certainly use both, if you like "Flemish Legion of the Waffen SS", if our numerically named friend won't object. The word SS is, admittedly, emotionally charged, but in this case seems completely appropriate. You'll notice the anonymous author before me actually used the word "collaborator" - I removed that, since it isn't clear he actually worked for the Nazis in Belgium proper. The grandfather was a person who not only took the side of the people who conquered his country, but went off to help them conquer a different country - it's pretty hard to see how we can say that without it being in rather bad taste. If you really insist, you can say "fought for the Germans", that still covers it. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Our numerically named friend won't object against anything that is stated in references. However, I'm determined to prove your reference wrong. The fact that it states that Hans' father was a founder of Vlaams Blok is totally wrong according to me. This was briefly claimed by Belgian media and later denied. So if that can be proven, I believe that your reference is no longer valid, for then their claim about the SS could also be based on rumors spread by people like yourself. 1652186 16:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Good luck with that. As you can guess, not being interested in Belgian politics per se, I don't feel strongly about the facts, merely that they be represented. If you find info about the media taking it back, we'll either remove the claim, or, if some still hold it, add "alleged" and both the claim and the retraction. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 17:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Problem: till now, the article said: "Her father, Karel Van Themsche, fought as a volunteer for the Waffen SS against the Soviets on the Eastern Front during World War II." If I would be an Australian, American, or French citizen, not recognizing Van Themsche as an old spelling of Van Temse, a place near the Flemish city Sint-Niklaas, I might assume Karel having been a German soldier fighting for his country who later moved to Belgium. The major element is that while occupying Germany recruited Flemish volunteers to fight the Soviets, the latter were Belgium's best hope for ever becoming liberated (the larger number of volunteers joined while 'America' was not yet at war, 'England' considered too weak); that he simply was a traitor (every Belgian knew about their fugitive government in England; even though king Leopold III had surrendered Belgium, a reason why his reign was questioned after the war which finally led to leaving the throne to his young son). Where Frieda on her web page says that her family suffered from the repression, it is most likely (if not a certainty) that he was not just a mere victim of the uglier vindictive actions immediately after the war but was sentenced by court to a long effective imprisonment. One of the major political demands of all Flemish-Nationalist parties that so far led to Vlaams Belang, has been a general amnesty for collaborators with the Germans in WW2, one idea being that a lot of the young people had been (mis)led by propaganda to see Germany as an ally of the Flemish against the Francophone domination (the "fought against communism and for Flanders" phrase on Frieda's website, had been that classical propaganda). I'm stating facts quite a bit more bluntly here, than I would do in an article. I do think I found an objective replacement phrase giving all readers of the English language Wikipeda an understanding of facts necessary to follow the controversies mentioned in Hans Van Themsche's article and in that and his aunt Frieda's Talk pages. The necessary citations and references come with the phrase, please read these carefully before changing the Eastern Front sentence; I do not feel right about the name dropping of Frieda's father in an encyclopedia (her brother's first name was not mentioned either): I removed it from Frieda's article though still left it in the Hans Van Themsche article. -- 83.182.60.42 2006-05-28 05:39 (UTC)

Disputed tag

I hope you got what you wanted now. Drawing unmentioned conclusions from a reference is original research at best, vandalism at worst. Both are not permitted here. That's why the tag is there. I would also like to see some hard evidence that Karel Van Themsche was a founding member of Vlaams Blok, because I believe that to be a lie as well. It surely isn't in the reference. 1652186 13:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Found one, in English even. European Jewish Press http://www.ejpress.org/article/8246

"[Hans Van Themsche]'s father had been a founding member of the Vlaams Blok, the anti-immigration, extreme-rightist Flemish party renamed Vlaams Belang, or Flemish Interest, in 2004 in a bid to broaden its appeal.

His aunt, Frieda Van Themsche, is a Vlaams Belang member of the Belgian parliament, and his grandfather was a member of the Nazi Waffen SS at the East front during WWII."

Apparently 195.74.132.189 confused just whose father founded the Vlaams Blok. Changed in article. Still disputing? AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 13:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess I no longer have a legitimate reason for the factual accuary tag. I'm not convinced though, it would seem strange to me that an English language newspaper I've never heard of knows more about Van Themsche's family than Flemish media. 1652186 14:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, there seem to be lots in the Flemish Media. I just can't read them as well, so can't be as sure (in fact, I am not even sure they are the Flemish media, they just seem to be French, and Dutch or German), but I suspect they are, and that this is what they say: http://www.levif.be/CMArticles/ShowArticle.asp?articleID=1318&sectionID=27 "...Son grand-père a servi au sein des Waffen SS durant la Seconde Guerre mondiale."

http://www.blokwatch.be/content/view/815/39/lang,nl/ "zijn grootvader vocht in Waffen SS-uniform aan het oostfront."

http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journal/2006-05-19/2006-05-19-830095 "Son père, Peter, est un militant de la première heure de l’ex-Vlaams Blok, crée en 1978 par des nationalistes flamands et d’anciens collabos. Sa tante Frieda est, elle, députée fédérale du parti, décrit par son président comme « islamophobe ». Frieda Van Themsche ne sourcille pas quand elle se plaît à vanter l’engagement du grand-père et du grand-oncle de Hans en 1943 au sein des Waffen SS, sur le front de l’Est."

... pages and pages of them. Just do a Google or two. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, most Flemish media won't take the trouble. They know, that if they write that someone "fought the godless communists at the Eastfront", everybody in the country immediately understands that the person was a collaborator with the Germans, and fought in the Waffen SS. It's common knowledge. So they are not going to waste expensive article or ad space on the subject. --LucVerhelst 15:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

According to De Morgen newspaper, 13 May 2005, grandfather Van Themsche became a member of the Volksunie after the war, and "followed Karel Dillen to his Vlaams Blok in 1977"" (Grootvader Karel meldde zich tijdens de oorlog als oostfronter, samen met zijn tweelingbroer. Na de oorlog trad hij toe tot de Volksunie, om in 1977 Karel Dillen in zijn Blok te volgen.) This is a reference for the fact that Grandfather Van Themsche was a co-founder of the Vlaams Blok. 'Er was iets veranderd in die jongen' by Peter Goris (paying) --LucVerhelst 15:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I have two remarks: I concede as far as the mention of the Nazi SS allegations are concerned. However, I still think that the way it is presented here is extremely POV. Even Luc seems to agree on that. I urge that it be written as accoring to .... On the other hand, I do not at all agree about the founding member thing. First of all, the article says that Hans' father was a founding member of Vlaams Blok. I also fail to see the logic of how in 1977 he [the grandfather] followed Karel Dillen to his Vlaams Blok proves that he was a founding member. 1652186 18:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

What's your specific proposal? According to whom? The many Google references that say the grandfather served with the Waffen SS don't cite a specific source for that - and there are many of them. If you can track down a specific source that you have reasons to believe are the one they are all getting their info from, I'll be happy to cite it, but you'll have to do it, since from your user page, I see you read both Dutch and French - that's better than me. Meanwhile, her own personal home page biography seems to say (if http://altavista.babelfish.com isn't letting me down) that her father served on the Eastern front. So I don't think she personally would be disputing that. (In fact, she seems to be the most likely candidate for such a source.) What's your basis for writing that anyone is disputing this? AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 18:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You can add according to whoever you think is the most credible. On Frieda's page, I see nothing else than that her grandfather fought on the Eastern Front, against the communists. It doesn't mention that he was a member of the Flemish Legion or the SS. I am not disputing the fact that he fought on the Eastern front. I am disputing that you have proof that he was a member of the Waffen SS. A couple of unknown sites isn't hard evidence, as they can be basing their reports on rumors, just like those who claim that the father or grandfather (the inconsistency in this says enough...) was a founding member of Vlaams Blok. 1652186 18:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all let us be clear we are discussing Frieda Van Temsche's FATHER. Her grandfather as far as we know led a blameless life.

There can be no doubt that her father Karel Van Themsche was in the SS. The phrase tegen het goddeloze communisme en voor Vlaanderen (http://www.friedavanthemsche.be/biografie.php) in the context of Flemish politics is unambiguously the standard formulaic apologia of the Flemish SS veterans. If he had not been in the SS Frieda Van Temsche would have said so loud and clear. If you have any notion of respect for historical truth this objection should be withdrawn. User:unsigned... apparantly User:195.74.132.189 at 10:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

For whom it makes a difference: quote from Frieda Van Themsche's personal website (link in the article), and my as close as possible literal translation: "Op 1 oktober 1977 besloot Karel Dillen een nieuwe politieke partij op te richten (...). Enkele dagen later sloot mijn vader zich aan en maakte meteen ook mijn moeder en mezelf lid." --> "On the 1st of October 1977, (...), Karel Dillen decided to establish a new political party. A few days later, my father joined and made also my mother and myself members." The 'few days later' is reliable, for Frieda would not hide her fathers (alledged) even earlier membership of the party for which she is active. Thus technically, he is not a founding member, but (perhaps exaggerating but it seems normal use of English language) a member from the first hour, or from the earliest days - Though historically incorrect and possibly exaggerating his importance for Vlaams Blok, mentioning founding member could not have given a 'biased' impression of Hans Van Themsche's grandfather's sympathies or actions. Yes - the father, of Frieda, is the mentioned grandfather, of Frieda's nephew. -- 213.224.87.185 2006-05-27 04:45 (UTC)

The confusion is not necessarily completely solved: the article on Frieda mentions her brother (the father of Hans Van Themsche) as founding member of the Vlaams Blok, supported by no less than 3 serious English language references of which one mentions her father as well, for his WW2 actions but not with respect to Vlaams Blok. -- 83.182.60.42 (at times submitting from an open access point as 213.224.87.185) 2006-05-28 06:03 (UTC)

Inappropriate tone

I put the template "Inappropriate tone" on the article. Since the edits of Maanstonden on 1 & 3 May 2009, the article reads like a magazine article. --Luxem (talk) 11:18, 4 May 2009 (UTC)