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Talk:Gaucho (album)

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Christgau

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To call Christgau's B- a "positive review" is perhaps overstating the case. His own definition of a B- was "a competent or mildly interesting record that will usually feature at least three worthwhile cuts." These days he rarely bothers writing about anything lower than a B+, and has said on more than one occasion that, life being finite, he doesn't recommend spending time on mediocrity when excellence is always close at hand. His (as always) succinct review in its entirety:

"With Walter Becker down to composer credits and very occasional bass, Donald Fagen progresses toward the intellectual cocktail rock he's sought for almost a decade--followed, of course, by a cadre of top-drawer El Lay studio hacks, the only musicians in the world smart enough to play his shit. Even the song with Aretha in it lends credence to rumors that the LP was originally entitled Countdown to Lethargy. After half a dozen hearings, the most arcane harmonies and unlikely hooks sound comforting, like one of those electromassagers that relax the muscles with a low-voltage shock. Craftsmen this obsessive don't want to rule the world--they just want to make sure it doesn't get them. B-"

"Hacks"? "Shit"? "Lethargy"? Relgif (talk) 17:02, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally Mr. C. seems to have missed out on the fact that many of the sessionmen were East coast - Aja was the actual L.A.-played album. 83.254.151.33 (talk) 10:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect drumming

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Anyone have an idea of approximately how much time - and the patience of their musicians - they could have saved if they'd had access to a good sampler for the drumming? A few years later, Scritti Politti achieved something like the kind of drumming I imagine Steely Dan were after on the Cupid & Psyche 85 album, a record where, by Green Garthside's own admission, pretty much everything was run through samplers, especially the drums.83.254.151.33 (talk) 11:24, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Becker was to use the drum machine extensively on his 1994 solo album 11 Tracks of Whack, but am not convinced it always succeeds. Certainly for Gaucho, and other albums, B&F made a big thing about using Bernard Purdie and his trademark "shuffle". Martinevans123 (talk) 10:45, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jarrett credit on "Gaucho"

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According to http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/tony-norman/2006/08/04/Don-t-mess-with-Steely-Dan/stories/200608040182 , Keith Jarrett was given a co-composer credit on the title song. I've updated the track listing.

Jrdeardorff (talk) 20:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Magic Johnson?

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"Resemblances between the subject of "Glamour Profession" and second year NBA player Magic Johnson have been noted but not confirmed as intentional..." Could anyone who has access to pages 197-8 of the Lazenby (2006) book actually tell us what they say? That current passage in article is not really convincing that it was any more than just an off-the-cuff descriptive throw-away comparison. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:54, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Meaning of the song Gaucho

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I suspect the song Gaucho is about someone who is gauche. 118.149.210.16 (talk) 03:52, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not harmonically complex?

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The introduction states that Gaucho is a major stylistic change for SD, as the "harmonically complex chord changes" that were their trademark are "less prominent" here.

"Babylon Sisters", and even more so "Glamour Profession" seem to me some of the most harmonically complex songs Walt and Don have ever written (probably the most, actually), on the other hand, all their previous albums have included some fairly simple blues variations.

So , this comment doesn't make sense to me, as it is basically false, or at the best, meaningless.

Yes, I have my doubts too. It's not really sourced to any expert opinion, is it? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:18, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Please fix this...

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... awkward sentence:

"However, the pair's working relationship began to strain, '

'strain?' 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:9579:17E1:C82E:6896 (talk) 04:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What is going on here?

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@Binksternet:, you removed a verified genre, and restored one for which no source was cited? And you had the audacity to call the former an "outlier opinion", when there's no documentation anywhere in the article of what the supposed majority viewpoint on the genre is?? Did you really think you were going to get away with this? lol isento (talk) 05:08, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First thing is that yacht rock is an insult, like bro country. Second thing is that many, many observers talk about the jazz rock and jazz pop fusion of Steely Dan's various albums. That one yacht rock source is an outlier. Binksternet (talk) 05:15, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Taking offense to it doesn't justify removing it. isento (talk) 05:20, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your first source says "jazz pop". Can you at least cite accurately? We do have standards here... isento (talk) 05:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Stuessy book you cited makes no mention of Gaucho on a page 335, and nothing apparently in connection to "jazz rock", other than a generalization of the band's sound not in connection to any specific album. isento (talk) 05:23, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You cited Erlewine from AllMusic, who happens to acknowledge yacht rock as a legitimate genre and this album's title track as an example ([1]). isento (talk) 05:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As you well know, one song genre does not make for the album genre.
Are you dyslexic? Your grammar is seriously off. isento (talk) 05:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You are edging into WP:NPA territory. Cool it down, man. Binksternet (talk) 06:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Stuessy book on page 335 talks about a series of Steely Dan albums including Gaucho, all of them having a jazz rock genre. Binksternet (talk) 05:45, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Quote it. isento (talk) 05:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sure thing. Stuessy talks about a progression of jazz influences increasing in the Steely Dan albums starting from 1975. He says on page 335: "Katy Lied (1975) revealed more obvious jazz influences (for example listen to 'Doctor Wu', with jazz saxophonist Phil Woods.) The Royal Scam (1976) also utilized numerous extra players and had a clearer jazz-rock fusion sound. Steely Dan's last two studio albums, Aja (number 3 in 1977) and Gaucho (number 9 in late 1980) were not only big sellers but yielded four single hits. Steely Dan was something of an enigma; they had a unique sound that, even though often characterized as jazz-rock fusion, was nothing like Chicago, Mahavishnu, Santana, Weather Report, etc." Binksternet (talk) 06:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Even though often characterized" does not mean "all of their albums have a jazz rock genre". But I am glad you provided a better source. isento (talk) 00:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a second source directly referring to Gaucho as yacht rock. One - music journalist and broadcaster Paul Sexton writes that, while Aja had "announced their ever-greater exploration of jazz influences", Gaucho is "their yacht rock masterpiece" ([2]). Two - Patrick Hosken from MTV News: "Great yacht rock is also more musically ambitious than it might seem, tying blue-eyed soul and jazz to funk and R&B — see: any Steely Dan tune from Aja or Gaucho." ([3]) All cited in the Music and lyrics section. Sufficient? @Binksternet:, @Sfjohna:, @Holiday56:, @JG66: isento (talk) 15:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well yeah, as far as I'm concerned. And Paul Sexton is a genuine music journo; the name's so familiar to me, I can't even remember whether I know it from NME, Q, Mojo, Uncut, Select, Record Collector or Classic Rock – or all of them. You might remember years back I questioned why it was we'd even consider including anything less than the best sources and their take on genres for Pet Sounds (given there was such a wide choice of styles). Well, that's not an issue here, because Sexton's well established in his field.
The only problem might be that both those sources approach Gaucho from the subject of yacht rock: neither one's a piece purely about Gaucho. I mean, I don't see it as a problem ... As I said at Talk:Aja (album), I'm not familiar with Steely Dan, but perhaps someone who is, and who's knowledgeable about the band's albums, would find "yacht rock" totally wrong. (Sort of like the psychedelia vs psychedelic rock issue I mentioned at the other album's talk page.) Is this where you're coming from, Binksternet – the idea that yacht is such a foreign term when it comes to discussing this or any other album by Steely Dan?
If there are any band biographies out there, might be an idea to check what they say. I always think we should be discerning when it comes to critics who might be using terms like yacht, soft rock, disco, heavy metal because they don't like the album. Clearly, that's not what Sexton or Patrick Hosken are doing here, though. JG66 (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
JG66, you touched upon a point that I felt was important. When a writer writes about a particular genre the net is thrown wider than if the writer writes about a single musical effort. Music with just a whiff of the genre can be brought in to fatten the topic.
The other big problem I have is that yacht rock is an insult genre, born of a parody video web series that first aired in June 2005.[4] After the term came into common use, only a few contrarians have fastened on the notional yacht rock genre to write music for it. The songs described as yacht rock are really soft rock with clean lyrics and a smooth production style. By far the majority of the "yacht rock" songs or albums were created in the 1970s and '80s when the term yacht rock was still decades away from being coined. It's like labeling Bad Company albums classic rock when, at the time, they were just rock. Bad Company was never making classic rock music, and Steely Dan was never making yacht rock songs.
I am perfectly happy to see the term yacht rock applied to this album in prose, bearing in mind that it is always a retrospective point of view. But I don't like to see yacht rock in the infobox of any song or album that predates 2005 and the original web series. Binksternet (talk) 18:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's interesting. Have to say, the idea that a genre should not be applied retrogressively [is that the right word?] is not an approach I've seen used here in the main. That's not to say I necessarily agree with the idea of applying any old genre as long as it's adequately sourced, but it does seem to be the approach that's most common on Wikipedia, from what I've seen. Can't help wondering whether there's a fair few song and album articles that list folk rock in their infobox, when the music was actually released a year or more before that genre is said to have begun.
Here is another mention of Gaucho as yacht rock, btw (in that every song discussed in the article is yacht), from Jennifer Otter Bickerdike in The Guardian. Relevant text is: And that was when it hit me – why be ashamed of appreciating a carefully crafted, meticulously produced song, which, technically speaking, most tracks in the yacht category are? Expense was of no consequence, with countless dollars and hours dedicated to brass and string sections, recording and engineers. Urban legend even claims that while making their seven-song 1980 album Gaucho, Steely Dan, known for their attention to every tiny detail during the recording process, employed no less than 42 session musicians and 11 engineers. There was no Auto-Tune to bring sub-par vocals up to a listenable standard, or lip-syncing at a live performance in yacht – it was real, meticulous, and yes, often sported a fashion faux pas (too many to enumerate here). JG66 (talk) 19:39, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Etymologies of genres are sometimes not the most glorious - see reggae and funk. With regard to the anachronistic aspect Bink touches on, does that mean we should do away with any labelling of Wikipedia topics that occurred before said labels were invented? Say, prehistoric topics that occurred before language was invented to describe them? Like album era? Or evolution? isento (talk) 23:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm guessing you're half serious, the half about album era. My stance would be that no album should be labeled part of the album era in the infobox genre parameter. Binksternet (talk) 03:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm guessing yacht rock is going to remain in the infobox here... isento (talk) 07:54, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify my position: Binksternet, I'm not dismissing your concerns at all. I wasn't aware of the satirical origins of the term "yacht rock", but it does seem the term has been embraced as a straight descriptor, Otter Bickerdike's piece being a third example here. I share your reservations about how music can be said to represent a genre that wasn't yet in existence.
I cited folk rock, psychedelic rock also, but another one that readily comes to mind is lo-fi. The term existed ever since the 1950s, so our article states, but as a musical style? I doubt it. Not until the 1980s at a guess, say, with some of R.E.M.'s early albums. Yet since then, writers have deemed Beach Boys albums from the late '60s, Paul McCartney's debut solo album from 1970, and others, to be lo-fi, and our album articles follow that. I don't like this approach – I'm interested in the development of music as it happened at the time (whereas modern-day journalists, even some music historians, seem out to recast music and musicians based on a 21st century perspective and aesthetic). But, as mentioned, it is commonplace on Wikipedia. Apart from the revisionism reflected in the genres in album and song infoboxes, though, it's been allowed to dictate the description of a genre's history in our genre articles: a present-day labelling of an old album as a certain style is inserted in the chronology as if the style was in existence back then, when it wasn't – the Beach Boys and McCartney albums at Lo-fi music, for instance.
I think it's a way bigger problem in the genre articles, where retrospective commentary appears to be free to rewrite history. Perhaps this whole issue needs some discussion at WP Albums or WP Music. JG66 (talk) 07:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merriam defines "genre" as "a category of artistic, musical, or literary composition characterized by a particular style, form, or content". It does not mention historical or chronological circumstances. Styles of music can exist before being publicly or officially recognized with categorical terminology. The point of a genre, by its definition, is categorization based on style, form or content. Yacht rock in the infobox performs that function for common (as opposed to specialist) readers, which should be our primary concern. isento (talk) 08:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It does sound to me that there's enough grounds for "yacht rock"'s inclusion in the prose and infobox given that the album has been cited as such by reputable source(s). As someone who's admittedly more aware of the term from the web series I do see where the concerns regarding the term's legitimacy / satirical nature are coming from (I did initially find it weird to see the phrase pop up in scattered articles), but the yacht rock article does seem to make the case for the phrase having entered the lexicon of music criticism as a legitimate genre descriptor given how widespread its use has become in modern music writing (thus I think any objections to that would probably be better discussed on the talk page of that article instead). I'd abide by the viewpoint that retrospective genre labels can be included, with the caveat that descriptors that might be held as "controversial" might want to be discussed beforehand, i.e. the "Pet Sounds is emo" example discussed here. Though I do think that this particular example (Gaucho/yacht rock) isn't quite as radical as that example, where the point of contention is labeling an album as a genre widely documented to have originated many decades after the album's release; by contrast "yacht rock" is more of a retrospective genre descriptor for music originally released in the 1970s and 1980s as opposed to a genre that itself originated as a musical style in the 2000s. Holiday56 (talk) 05:58, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Were You Blind That Day" Origin

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In the "Outtakes and bootlegs" section, "Were You Blind That Day" is described as "dating from the Aja sessions," which accords with this essay by Brian Sweet but is not mentioned in the article cited. Also, in the block quote that follows, Larry Carlton says his guitar solo was recorded for The Royal Scam, and I know I have heard him make this claim elsewhere. It would not seem that the track is a verified Aja outtake. Or, in any case, it is confusing to refer to a 1977 album as the track's origin then quote a guitarist claiming he played on the track for a 1976 album. ClayTroup (talk) 21:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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