Talk:Hermenegild

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POV Tag

I added a POV tag. This reads like it is copied out of Catholic Encyclopedia or something similar. Consider a re-write that tones down the rhetoric some, Use "Nicene faith" rather than catholic when contrasting with Arian, etc. -- Pastordavid 17:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I kind of agree as it fails to highlight the "civil war" between "Nicene faith" and Arianism in a neutral light. I was reading/fixing up Miro of Gallaecia and that article now says "Hermenegild (a recently convert to Catholicism) rebelled against his father, Leovigild (who like most Visigoths was an Arian Christian) and Miro gave Hermenegild support. In 583 though, Leovigild besieged and took Seville. Hermenegild was captured and executed and Miro was forced to make a pact with Leovigild and retreat.". Is that a fair writing ?. I guess I have to track down cites now. Ttiotsw 21:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is heavily POV -- even now, over 4 years later. It omits all mention of the fact that Hermenegild rebelled against his father, & that many experts on Visigothic Spain argue that his revolt most likely had nothing to with religion in the beginning. He did convert, most likely to gain support from Spanish Catholics, as well as the Byzantines & Sueves who later came support him. R.A. Markus (Gregory the Great and his world, pp. 165f), points out his contemporaries saw him "as a simple usurper" & argues it was due to Pope Gregory the Great's Dialogues which led to the cult of Hermenegild the martyr. Hermenegild had a minimal effect on his brother's conversion to Catholicism; to argue that it did means one has to confront the fact contemporary Catholic writers -- John of Biclaro, Isidore of Seville, Gregory of Tours -- either omit any mention of this influence, or portray Hermenegild unfavorably & his "heretic" father positively. Peter Heather argues that Reccared felt his people's Arianism isolated them from the other European powers, as well as from large sections of their subject peoples, which contributed to his change in belief.

However, in order to correct this severe bias, this article would need to be thoroughly rewritten from scratch. Which means if I need to do it, this rewrite won't be done for a long time, due to lack of time, & a need to rely on enough reliable sources to embarrass anyone who contests replacing the garbage currently masquerading as an article. -- llywrch (talk) 06:24, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Causes of the Civil War and Motivation for Hermenegild's Conversion

The motivation for Hermenegild's rebellion and for his conversion, and in fact the details of his conversion, are unclear and lost to history. Gregory of Tours gives a colorful and fairly detailed account, but he has a reputation as an Arian and Goth hater, and his biases are well-known to show through his writings. That is not meant to completely dismiss what Gregory says. Other sources that mention the incident and Hermenegild's conversion are the Chronicle of John of Biclarum, and the History of the Goths (Historia Gothorum) of Isidore of Seville. A third Spanish source, the Lives of the Fathers of Merida (Vitas Patrum Emeritensium), is silent on the affair and never mentions Hermenegild by name. E. A. Thompson believed that this silence or reticence on the part of the Spanish sources points to a desire to whitewash the affair after the en masse conversion of the Visigoths to Catholicism in 589 (nominally in 589, but perhaps actually in 587). After this conversion of the entire Visigothic nobility, postures Thompson, none of the later Catholic authors wanted to exemplify a rebellious Catholic Goth in Spain. There may be other reasons for the silence on the part of the Spanish sources, but I bring this up to show that the matter is still debatable. One further reference to Hermenegild's conversion and later murder in exile, a murder which itself is now shrouded in mystery, is that Pope Gregory the Great in his Dialogues refers to Hermenegild as a Catholic martyr. There are plenty of secondary (modern) sources which go into more detail on the analysis than I can go into here, but I could provide a longer bibliography later, if there is any interest. Craig Schamp (talk) 00:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Died

Hermenegild died in 586:

Roman Martyrology' [[1] (fr.)
Catholic Online [2] (en.)
Sancti in Polonia [3] (pl.)

--Tanja5 (talk) 09:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Descendants

I have removed the descendants section because I believe it is without evidence. Please provide specific citations and exact quotes so that others can review them.Wjhonson (talk) 21:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The section as it had been is below:
BEGINQUOTE Athanagild, his son with Ingund, born ca 585, went to exile in the Byzantine Empire. There he married Flavia Juliana, born ca 590, daughter of 'Peter Curopalates (ca 550 - 602), and niece of Emperor Maurice.

They had an only son Artabastos (Greek form of Artavazd, Armenian name, origin of Petrus Augustus), born circa 611, who married Goda, Glasvinda or Galesvinda, born ca 610, a niece or a daughter of Chindasuinth, King of the Visigoths.

Their son Erwig became King of the Visigoths. ENDQUOTE