Talk:Irish passport

New Green passport?

I paased through Berlin airport today, and spotted a person carrying a GREEN covered Irish passport. This passport had light blue pages and did not have the European Union wording on the cover. Was this some kind of diplomatic passport?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.44.104.98 (talk) 22:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Emergency replacement passports are greeny-black and only last a year. Could have been one of these. Even "diplomatic" Official Passports are burgundy. --89.101.141.253 (talk) 11:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Emergency replacement passport has green pages rather than the usual blue. Probably it was a standard passport with non-standard over-cover.RashersTierney (talk) 00:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Erratum- Pages on temp passport are BlueRashersTierney (talk) 22:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Passport Card acceptance

I shall contact the border authorities of CEFTA countries, North Cyprus and Georgia to see what their stance on the passport card is. They claim to accept EU ID cards, but of course they need to have acknowledged the Irish card first.

Also I found this highly interesting: "Wider use of the Irish passport card for travel in future will be restricted to the small number of countries that issue e-Visas (such as Australia and Turkey) or that stamp entry on a separate piece of paper (such as Hong Kong or Israel).

Will these cards seriously be accepted in countries where other EU ID cards aren't, just because the Irish one is labelled "passport"? André Devecserii (talk) 15:41, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

It is not a national ID card epted its is not encyclopedic to speculate.so it may well be acc, I have removed the edits from today on multiple grounds, OR (in theory- without backing it with a cite that says in theory), unsourced (no references for the claims made) aswell as the additon of the EU flag for Russia, Turkey etc. Murry1975 (talk) 20:12, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Fine, I'll simply insert the sources André Devecserii (talk) 21:15, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

And why are you callng it a national ID card? Murry1975 (talk) 21:17, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Note that it is not certain that the passport card is accepted even in the EU/EEA. It is not yet registered in PRADO, the register of passports and identity document accepted by the EU. Many airlines accept national identity cards for international travel within the EU, but it seems in this discussion, that the Irish passport card is a passport card, not a national identity card, and most airlines do not mention passport cards.--BIL (talk) 21:25, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

You are right to stress that the new Irish passport card is the very first (of what I expect to be a rapidly proliferating class) of credit card sized passports that are not artificially restricted by the issuing authority.

You are also right to stress that the new Irish passport card may well be accepted (and also refused) in places that are unfamiliar with it because it is so new (and novel) a document.

If officials do refuse the passport and point to its absence from the PRADO tool, I would suggest drawing their attention to the PRADO caveat on the home page: Please note that the information on European travel and identity documents in this database is not yet complete; several documents and versions of documents are still missing. Please visit us again soon to see if the document you are searching for has been included in our database in the meantime. and Whatever a document's origin, please address any question relating to it to your national contact point. BushelCandle (talk) 18:34, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I have read in the media that it'll fill the same function as a national ID card, and that the name is due to the controversy in the UK with ID cards up until 2011.

Also IATA (Timatic) has confirmed its validity in the EU/EFTA André Devecserii (talk) 21:31, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

BIL No surprise that passport cards aren't mentioned - AFAIK it's the second ID document in the world to be called that after the US passport card, which is not valid for international air travel. André Devecserii (talk) 21:37, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

The IATA dont make visa and passport requirements governments do. The media state it will fill the same functions as an ID card the Irish Dept of Foreign Affairs state it is issued to be a supplementary passport (they cant issue an internal ID card as, they are not the dept for that). The name is due to a UK ID controversy? Could you expand on the last one, I am not really getting it. Murry1975 (talk) 22:11, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm neither British nor Irish so really no bias here, but I've read that the name "passport card" was chosen due to the heavy criticism the UK ID cards made (limited security of the National Identity Register, amongst other factors), and one wanted to avoid negative associations.

Also, IATA don't make up their info; they obtain it from the governments. They wouldn't say a document is accepted if it isn't (unless it's outdated and the country hasn't reported it, which is not a possibility given that the passport card is brand new). Not just EU countries, but also EFTA countries, have exlicitly said they accept the Irish passport card André Devecserii (talk) 23:54, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Read more about the UK national identity cards here. The cards were not mandatory for average people but were still criticised for the identity register, which contained sensitive information about every UK resident. If I were Irish I would get the card, but bring the passport also at air travel during the first year. It was same in Sweden, it was sometimes denied at Swedish airports at departure inside Schengen and usually to the UK. --BIL (talk) 13:59, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm Swedish too and bloody jealous! The Swedish border police won't even let people fly directly to CEFTA countries with the ID card (I currently live in Zurich through so they can go to hell).

In fact, when I fly from Zurich to, say, New York, I still show the ID card at the Schengen border control, and my passport at the gate. Why? The Schengen border control is responsible for verifying my right of abode in Schengen and NOT my right to enter other countries. That is instead determined by the airline and the border police at the destination.

Anyway, that's besides the point. I can't wait to get replies from the countries' authorities to see their reaction to the passport card (I've attached images in every mail) André Devecserii (talk) 16:12, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I have removed again, not in the references given and still containing OR. The section is becoming loaded with unsupported claims

"Unlike national identity cards issued in other parts of the EU, an Irish passport card can not be issued unless the bearer already has a valid passport booklet but, because of its convenient size and durable format compared to the Irish passport booklet, it will also serve purposes similar to that of national identity cards in other parts of the EU: identity and age verification, and intra-EU travel. (Passports are not required de jure within the EU, but passport booklets were previously required de facto for Irish citizens as there is no Irish government ID card system in place.)"

Sourced to here, which does not mention ID card, identity card, or national card. What is going on??? Murry1975 (talk) 19:49, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

There you go, it says EEA and Switzerland, in other words EU and EFTA, and yet you reverted the edit in which I simply wrote EU/EFTA André Devecserii (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

It says EEA and Switzerland, we write EEA and Switzerland. Its call citing. Murry1975 (talk) 21:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Passport Card for Ukraine/South Africa

Hello, I've recently got a reply from the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine regarding the passport card.

They didn't explicitly say they'd accept the Irish passport card, though they did say all passports (with visas where applicable) would be accepted. The fact that they replied positively after I clearly mentioned asking about a passport in card format implies they'd accept it.

I also know for a fact that when it comes to stamps, there is the option of filling out a migration card at home and getting it stamped instead of the passport. As such, at least in combination with the migration card, the passport card ought to work.

South Africa, meanwhile, has confirmed to me it will not accept the passport card, simply because it cannot be stamped André Devecserii (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

The acceptance of the Irish passport card seems to be the same as for other national identity cards in the European Economic Area, that is not in Ukraine or South Africa.--BIL (talk) 21:09, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Seems? What do you base that on? Don't get me wrong, I assumed it would be the case as well, until I fully understood that this is indeed a passport and not an ID card. André Devecserii (talk) 00:31, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I compared this article with National identity cards in the European Economic Area. The very idea of introducing the Irish passport card was to get a Travel document valid in all EU countries, regardless of if each country has the term passport card or not. Therefore the terms National identity card and Passport card are almost identical for international travel purpose. Any difference between the terms would be in domestic usage, issuing process or terminology only. Clearly the Irish card is not a passport, since those shall have the format in the image in the top right of the article with stampable pages.--BIL (talk) 13:50, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

"Clearly the Irish card is not a passport, since those shall have the format in the image in the top right of the article with stampable pages" - says who exactly? Not the Irish government. For the first 300 years, passports were NOT in booklet form and didn't have stampable pages. Now the wheel has come full circle and we have a new type of handy, biometric passport that is NOT an ID Card however much you pretend it is. BushelCandle (talk) 19:24, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

The twist is that Turkey, according to a friend of BushelCandle, accepts the passport card, while Irish are not among those nationals that can use ID cards for Turkey.

The Georgians didn't bat an eyelid to the new card either, whereas towards my card (Swedish) they were highly skeptical (at Tbilisi airport).

Surely this can't be coincidence. André Devecserii (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Turkey and Georgia allow national id cards from most EU countries according to National identity cards in the European Economic Area. The reason they won't allow Irish ID cards is that those do not state citizenship.--BIL (talk) 23:29, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, Georgia accepts all EU (but not EFTA) IDs, whereas Turkey accepts Western EU/EFTA (i.e. not Nordic or Eastern European) ones. Also it doesn't matter why Irish IDs aren't accepted; the fact is they aren't and even so the Irish passport card was in the aforementioned case. Thus they clearly treated it for what it is: a passport and not an ID card. André Devecserii (talk) 01:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

@BIL: Firstly, there is no such thing (and there has never been such an animal since the Free State was neutral during World War 2) as an "Irish ID card" and I really do wish you would stop using such sloppy and misleading language. The Irish passport card is exactly that - a passport.

Secondly, ALL Irish passport cards do state the nationality of the holder as "ÉIREANNACH/IRISH".BushelCandle (talk) 05:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of which, did you get permission from your friend to tell the Hong Kongers' view on the card? So far only Ukraine and South Africa have replied to my mails (Ukraine vaguely positively, South Africa negatively)

We can safely say it's accepted for Turkey and Georgia André Devecserii (talk) 05:41, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

No, André. (I think she's worried about her employer's finding out and considering it an abuse of her crew status). In any case, I don't think we can cite anecdotal de facto occurrences of acceptance as necessarily constituting the de jure position of the border controllers of various countries. I do have another friend that has already obtained an Australian eVisitor Visa for their Irish passport card and I'm waiting to see what happens to him when he actually presents the card in Melbourne in February... [Presumably the Aussies had no way of telling from the approved application that he was using an Irish passport card (as opposed to booklet) to apply...] BushelCandle (talk) 06:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

If I've understood it correctly, the eVisitor system automatically grants the entry clearance (never taken me more than 15 minutes from sending it) unless in the application you have reported circumstances that could make you ineligible, in which you're manually processed.

In any case, they cannot see what kind of document you're using: it's all about the number. Whether they accept the document at the border, however, is another thing.

Also, your other friend, will he be using the SmartGate at Melbourne? (Irish are eligible and the passport card is biometric)

On another note: just got a mail from Hong Kong. Haha, they say "Nationals of Ireland may visit Hong Kong without a visa not exceeding 90 days. To our understanding, the new Irish Passport Card attached in your e-mail is only valid for travel within the European Union (EU) and European Economic Area (EEA). In this regards, you may wish to clarify with the issuing authority of the card its validity of travelling other than EU and EEA."

In other words, they have no opinion of their own about it: if Ireland were to officially accept it for non-European travel, then it should work (or am I interpreting it wrong?) André Devecserii (talk) 16:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I've no personal experience of the Australian eVisitor scheme since it is limited to holders of European passports, but my experimentally minded Irish friend tells me that he experienced a five day delay in issuing a previous eVisitor Visa (subclass 651 - from applying on 16 November 2011 to it being granted on 21 November 2011) so I don't suppose processing is entirely automatic. He does plan to use the smartgate but anticipates mechanical problems because of the small format of the card and will take along his passport booklet, too.

I should imagine your Hong Kong correspondents are just taking their cue from the Irish government press releases. Unlike Philippines passports (which were not previously valid for Iraq) or US passport cards (which are not valid for air travel and beyond a limited geographical region), I'm not aware of the Irish government formally restricting the validity of their Irish passport card to Europe.

I should imagine there is a certain tension in the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade: the Minister wants to gain the kudos of issuing the world's first biometric passport card valid for air travel with a smartphone friendly application process - while his consular officials are presumably wary of encouraging Irish nationals to travel on a passport card alone to regions where Irish travellers may potentially be (expensively) detained because of the ignorance/bloody-mindedness of local border officials. Australia will be a realistic test for whether the Irish passport card gains acceptance beyond Europe because of the high visitation rates by Irish nationals and the local political sensitivities around border control. (Charlie Flanagan tweeted on 5 November 2015 that "over 9,400 applications for #passportcards have been received in our 1st month. Turnaround is now 5 working days".)

The most important potential problem with the new Irish passport card is not one of international acceptance but of impersonation. Because only a proportion of Irish passport card online applications are checked manually, it's possible for a Jihadi in possession of the passport booklet of his Irish captive to run the Android application and get a genuine passport card with his own image (but his captive's details) posted to him by the DFAT! BushelCandle (talk) 20:48, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, I find it shocking that Hong Kong leaves this to the Irish to decide. Swedish ID cards (not the same thing but still) are, by Swedish law, not valid outside EU/EFTA, but nevertheless accepted across Europe (except four countries), in Georgia and (conditionally) Jordan+Tunisia; you just cannot fly directly from Sweden to a non-EU/EFTA country.

Ireland needs to start discussions with other countries regarding this IMO André Devecserii (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

(outdent)

You must remember the different Weltanschauung of the English speaking world to "Continental" Europe (where everything that is not forbidden is compulsory?). For the English speaking countries it was traditionally the case that everything was permitted that was not expressly forbidden by law. To leave your own country without let or hindrance (or, in this context, without a valid travel document) was a fundamental human right in time of peace. BushelCandle (talk) 22:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Got a vague answer from the Australian border force on Facebook André Devecserii (talk) 07:47, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Hong Kong and passport cards

They now said this: "Under the existing visa-free visit regime, holders of valid IRELAND (REPUBLIC OF) national passport may visit the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) without a visa for a period of not exceeding 90 days. However, they must satisfy the immigration officer on arrival that they meet with the normal immigration requirements and qualify for entry as bona fide visitors, including possession of adequate funds to cover the duration of stay, the genuineness of the purpose of visit not in doubt, no known criminal or adverse records, etc. before permission to land in Hong Kong may be given. Each case will be considered and determined on its individual merits.

For visa requirements of different passport holders visiting the HKSAR, you may browse the following website for more details : http://www.immd.gov.hk/eng/services/visas/visit-transit/visit-visa-entry-permit.html ( Part II )

Nevertheless, we realized that each Airline would have their own boarding requirements on passport validity of the passengers. Therefore, you may also need to contact the respective Airlines to obtain more information on the matter.

Hope you will find the above information useful."

Yeah, bloody useful. NOT! André Devecserii (talk) 14:30, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be yet another example of what I already suspected. Most countries will continue to want to retain practical control over admissions across their own borders while paying at least lip service to the diplomatic convention that it is for the issuing country to decide what is their passport and what is another type of travel document.

Personally I find it highly significant that (presumably when the above reply by the Hong Kong authorities was made in the context of drawing their specific attention to the new Irish Passport Card) they did not take the opportunity to adopt the position of some WP editors in our National identity cards in the European Economic Area article and say that, even though it's labelled as a passport, Hong Kong immigration authorities would regard it as just another EEA identity card...

It's also interesting that they highlight that, for practical travel purposes, it is increasingly the air carrier that determines what is treated as a passport and what is not treated as a passport and I have yet to see any carrier that has determined that the Irish Passport Card is a mere identity card. BushelCandle (talk) 07:52, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

They are never going to find a Ireland(Republic of) or Republic of Ireland passport. And so By readingthe, logically a passport card would be allowed. Murry1975 (talk) 17:24, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean when you write air carriers are never going to find a Republic of Ireland passport?--BIL (talk) 08:36, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Every country have their independence and can decide themselves what to require for visitors. However there is a convention made by ICAO about passports (specifying size 125 × 88 mm / 4.921 × 3.465 in), and for practical reasons every country accepts it, otherwise it would be hard to go there just because of a special document. I don't think the ICAO convention contains anything about a "passport cards", and I don't ICAO convention allows Ireland and any other countries can claim that they are full passports, and require other countries to accept "passport cards". There is an EU directive (Free Movement of Citizens Directive) saying that identity cards are enough (if they fulfil some requirements such as containing citizenship info), but valid only inside the EU and some more. Not valid within Hongkong and so passport are valid there but not passport cards.--BIL (talk) 08:36, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I now mailed them a third time to get a clear answer. I wrote "Let's say I get on my flight, arrive in Hong Kong and Show my passport Card at Immigration. Provided I satisfy your other requirements, will you accept this as an entry document?"

It irritates me how I have to mail them three times because they won't even answer my question: will they accept the card for entry? André Devecserii (talk) 00:15, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Passport Card to Moldova

Dima1 added Moldova. Do you have any reference, or did you contact the Moldovan border police? André Devecserii (talk) 18:59, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Passport Card to the US

The US has confirmed they will not accept the passport card.

Look at this "A new Irish Passport Card, which will be accepted for travel within the European Union and the European Economic Area and will be available soon."

This Is what several countries, including the US, refer to, so this line is what will likely limit international acceptance André Devecserii (talk) 02:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

More on passport card acceptance

I have asked the Swedish border police if the new Irish Passport card is valid for entry. I described that they are in Ireland seen as small passports. The answer is translated: "Provided that the Irish document is a national ID that is issued by a competent authority, it is valid for entry into Sweden, Utlänningsförordningen/Immigration Ordinance 2 chapter 17§. We have not received any information about the new Irish document in question, so we can in substance not comment if it meets the requirements for entry."--BIL (talk) 13:24, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
I would like to add that the same regulation (Utlänningsförordningen 2 chapter) allows passports, but then they have to accepted as passports. So they have to be passports or national ID cards by a Swedish interpretation, but there is no decision yet. The source given in the article about EU acceptance is from the Irish department of foreign affairs. But I would like a source from the EU that they accept it. PRADO would be good, but does not list it. It seems like Ireland has not done their job in making it to be accepted.--BIL (talk)

PRADO can be years out of date sometimes and the Swedish police don't have the best of reputations for following EU directives and regulations (which directly over-rule national laws where there is a conflict). Did you actually show the police a picture of the Irish Passport Card which clearly states that it is an Irish passport? BushelCandle (talk) 06:10, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly, Prado lists United States passport cards as belonging to category 'A - Passport'.[1] The machine-readable text on these cards apparently begings with 'IP', as on the Irish cards.[2] Does this mean that the European Union may accept a card as being a 'passport'? --Stefan2 (talk) 18:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The people at PRADO should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. They feature the 2006 design of the Irish passport booklet and yet more than 2 years ago, on 30 September 2013, Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore announced the launch of the newly designed Irish passport booklet later that week (YouTube video).

I realize that there is no realistic alternative for this project, but one of the reasons experts in their field get so frustrated with Wikipedia is that facts that are basic and well-known in their fields can not be included here unless there is a reliable published source. Because of the requirements of commercial and state secrecy, I can never adequately source publicly how I know that "IP" is the preferred designator at the beginning of line 1 or the MRZ of TD1 format passport-class travel documents, but it does not stop that being well-known in relevant circles. Public sources only state that ICAO treaty signatories are free to choose any of the following pairs of characters as the first pair of its MRZ: AA, AB, A-, AD, AE, AF, AG, AH, AI, AJ, AK, AL, AM, AN, AO, AP, AQ, AR, AS, AT, AU, A-, AW, AX, AY, AZ, CA, CB, CC, CD, CE, CF, CG, CH, CI, CJ, CK, CL, CM, CN, CO, CP, CQ, CR, CS, CT, CU, C-, CW, CX, CY, CZ, IA, IB, IC, ID, IE, IF, IG, IH, II, IJ, IK, IL, IM, IN, IO, IP, IQ, IR, IS, IT, IU, I-, IW, IX, IY, IZ.

Equally it's pretty obvious to anyone that is not severely visually impaired that the Irish Passport Card does not have a burgundy cover - yet intelligent and knowledgeable editors are supposed to put up with this sort of nonsensical editing which results in statements appearing in Wikipedia that are, at best outdated and at worst simply false and tending to bring this project into disrepute as a source of accurate and timely information.

The "EU" does not really have a choice. The Irish Passport Card follows all the Doc 9303 recommendation for passport cards in TD1 format (47 years in gestation!) and Ireland's government would have too much egg on their face if it were not so accepted throughout the EU and EFTA. BushelCandle (talk) 02:51, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I just would like to point out that the ICAO specification 9303 part 5 which is about TD1 size (54x85 mm) does not contain the word passport. This document call them TD1 Size Travel documents. It is the TD3 size specification (88x125 mm) which uses the word passport. Either way if the IPC is called passort or identity card, they will probably be accepted by the EU, since passports or identity cards conforming to some standards will be accepted, but there is a little confusion and some countries define them as identity cards and Ireland and UK seem to define them as passports.--BIL (talk) 11:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure you're right in stating that Part 5 does not mention the word "passport". It makes a conscious effort to avoid wasting time on relatively unproductive differentiation and wrangling about nomenclature and limit itself to the technical specifications that are specific to TD1 Size Machine Readable Official Travel documents (MROTDs).

However, at page 1 is written: "Doc 9303-5, defines specifications that are specific to TD1 Size Machine Readable Official Travel documents (MROTDs) and should be read in conjunction with: Part 1 — Introduction..."

In Part 1, you will find the word "passport" mentioned many times. For example: "ICAO’s work on machine readable travel documents began in 1968 with the establishment, by the Air Transport Committee of the Council, of a Panel on Passport Cards. This Panel was charged with developing recommendations for a standardized passport book or card that would be machine readable, in the interest of accelerating the clearance of passengers through passport controls ". It's a pity that it has taken 47 years to arrive at the first biometric passport card that is available for air travel and not formally limited (on its face) to a particular geographical region, but at least Ireland has made a start.

There is no EU organ or body that I am aware of that "accepts" (or rejects) passports. It's up to each individual EU country to decide what travel documents (and under what circumstances) it will accept within the limits of EU directives and regulations. The EU system is organized so that the different ‘peoples’ rule themselves jointly through institutions over which they have direct influence. The states have pooled and shared sovereignty among themselves to rule jointly and hell will freeze over before you can expect to see other EU states rejecting Ireland's passports - whether in booklet or card form!

I'm sorry if this sounds unduly combative, but I must totally reject your continued assertions that the Irish passport card should be named (or is regarded officially by other countries) as a national identity card and I challenge you to provide a source for such a notion.

On a brighter note, a little bird tells me that the PRADO pages for Ireland should be updated fairly shortly... BushelCandle (talk) 08:01, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Your quote from part 1 describes their plan only. It is written in part 1 of ICAO Doc 9303 the following definition: "Machine Readable Passport (MRP)" = "A passport conforming with the specifications contained in Doc 9303-4.". And it is written in part 4 (Doc 9303-4): "MRP Data Page Nominal Dimensions The nominal dimensions shall be as specified in ISO/IEC 7810 (except thickness) for the TD3 size MRTD, i.e.:88.0 mm ± 0.75 mm × 125.0 mm ± 0.75 mm." No other size is allowed in part 4. Link to all Doc 9303--BIL (talk) 21:09, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I would just like to add that timaticweb now says that the Irish passport card is valid into Sweden and other EU countries.[3] The card is listed under "Passport Exemptions" which is the same way national identity cards from EU countries on the continent are listed.--BIL (talk) 22:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

More on passport Card acceptance, part 2

Hong Kong finally confirmed to me it will not accept the passport card; just like the US they use this as a reference ("Citizens can use the card alone for travel to these countries but the Passport Book must be used for all other foreign travel, including to the United States.").

South Africa earlier told me they do not accept it because it cannot be stamped. They're extreme about stamps, to the point where lack of passport space alone will get you sent back.

So at least the US, South Africa and Hong Kong do not accept it. Still trying to contact Canada and Australia but am (seriously) unable to find the suitable e-mail address (whereas calling would be too expensive for me). Serbia has not replied to my e-mail, whereas Kosovo gave a worthless reply: that EU citizens can enter with biometric ID cards, but that Ireland don't have that and therefore need passports. Their English was also very poor, so when I asked for a clearer answer, I got no reply.

Considering contacting Colombia, Argentina and maybe Chile and Mexico as well (I know adequate Spanish).

BushelCandle, do you think you could help me on this, so that the question gets posed more often to the point where countries find themselves having to take a stand?

It'd be really nice if you could send a mail to Serbia, who hasn't replied to my mail. If you do, the address is ovp@mfa.rs This image would be ideal to attach André Devecserii (talk) 20:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

For the nation that gave the world George Bernard Shaw and Oscar Wilde, that press release was very badly worded by Flanagan's office. Why on earth should he believe that Irish people should drag along a passport booklet to legitimately visit (amongst others) Switzerland and the Faroe Islands?

Yes, it's rather sad that governments never spend taxpayers' money as wisely as they could. I originally thought that Ireland had been quite far-sighted in introducing a passport card that was not artificially hobbled by being limited to a small geographical area like that of the US. The more I look into this I see signs that the right hand department does not know what the left hand department is doing and squandered opportunities.

Although the antecedents of PRADO (the Public Register of Authentic travel and identity Documents Online hosted by the Council of the European Union and available in all 24 official languages of the European Union) began in 1998 as a purely European thing, it is now used by border guards worldwide as a valuable resource. Should it not have been obvious then that, as soon as the finalised design of the passport card was sent to the printers in Ireland, details should also have been sent to PRADO (presumably embargoed until the date of the DFAT minister's announcement)?

Instead, more than 9 weeks after the original minister's release announcement, Ireland still has not updated its PRADO page! (Instead, DFAT wasted time and taxpayer's money sending press kits to national governments and then only in Europe).

Far more Irish men and women visit Australia and Hong Kong every year than ever visit Slovenia or Finland and yet no official notification of Ireland's new passport formats has still been sent to either government.

Why pick those two countries as an example of DFAT's incompetence/tardiness? Not just because of the high number of Irish visitors - both countries do not demand passport booklets for stamping (Australia issues e-Visas and those who use its SmartGates don't get passport stamps; Ireland is one of only 8 nations allowed to use Oz SmartGates. Hong Kong doesn't require visas from Irish nationals and always applies its entry and exit stamps on a separate piece of paper - so again no passport booklet is needed).

André: I'm not ignoring you, but I think I will wait until next Monday, 7 December 2015. If the situation hasn't improved by then, I will write a letter to the Irish Times instead of an email to the Serbians... BushelCandle (talk) 04:07, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a great plan. Foreign governments are obviously reluctant to take a stance of their own regarding the passport card, which I find strange, not least seeing as when it comes to Swedish ID cards (admittedly not as powerful a document), the CEFTA states and Georgia explicitly accept it even though Swedish border police will not allow you to leave directly for a non-EU/EFTA country with one. Hence the funny situation that the route Sweden-Romania-Serbia-Sweden can be flown, but not Sweden-Serbia-Romania-Sweden.

In contrast, regarding the Irish passport card, foreign countries seem to go by this possible artificial restriction by the Irish government, which is what I find highly contradictory André Devecserii (talk) 02:04, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Passport Cards to Serbia

Alright, so: a while ago I sent a mail to Serbia asking about passport card acceptance. Today I got two differnet replies (one agent replied and then forwarded to a colleague who also sent a reply).

Answer 1: "The actual visa regime between Serbia and Ireland says: No visas required for visits of up to 90 days * ID card can also be used to travel to Serbia"

Answer 2: "The card you have is a passport for traveling inside EU territory. So, you cannot travel to Serbia, of USA or any other country outside of EU. You will need a passport to come here."

Passports in card format anyone? Unfortunately I have yet to find a single country which considers the passport cards to be full passports (apart from Ukraine, who only gave me a vague positive answer, all countries who told me they'd accept it considered it an ID card which is so false).

Who would have thought the passport card would be less powerful than EEA ID cards? It's madness, and the worst part is, it's largely Ireland's fault for artificially restricting it.

André Devecserii (talk) 10:08, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

It's the old name trick. If something is controversial, change name. Ireland wanted to introduce id cards for EU travel according to EU standard. Since Ireland don't want to introduce id cards, they call them passports since the EU allows passports and id cards. I don't understand the problem with voluntary id cards, especially when passports exist, essentially the same thing as voluntary id cards. I asked the Irish authority on Twitter to make it linkable, and the answer is, Ireland has passport cards not id cards. https://twitter.com/BengtIngeL/status/667390892647522304 --BIL (talk) 07:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I think they take too far, however, when not even non-EU/EFTA countries that otherwise accept EEA ID cards (mainly the CEFTA states) will accept the passport card. André Devecserii (talk) 11:23, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, mandatory identity checks on police demands are more controversial than the words identity card. Some USA states have mandatory identity checks on police demand, which is called Stop and identify statutes. The USA has no mandatory id cards, instead they are called driver's licenses.--BIL (talk) 07:41, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Speculating on passport card acceptance

"Since passport cards have no space for affixing or stamping visas or entry / exit stamps, wider use of the Irish passport card for travel in future will be restricted to the small number of countries that issue e-Visas (such as Australia and Turkey) or that stamp entry on a separate piece of paper (such as Hong Kong, Israel or Ukraine)."

The above plainly speculates on possible future events. We have no way of knowing whether any of these countries will ever accept an Irish passport card for entry, irrespective of their stamping policy. — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 00:47, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you, completely unnecessary text. Due to the artificial restriction the Irish government put on that card, it has become even less "powerful" than EEA ID cards (the passport cards aren't even accepted by CEFTA states, which EEA ID cards are, let alone in, for example, Hong Kong, something they confirmed to me via mail) André Devecserii (talk) 11:07, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Do we need to include passport costs?

Hi - I'm just seeking the views of other editors over whether the cost of the passport should be included on the article. If we are encyclopaedic, surely we shouldn't act as a travel guide? Regardless, the cost of the passport varies depending on the country it is applied from, and the service which you use. st170e 19:09, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Useful for identification?

It is written in Identity document#Ireland that "Passport booklets, passport cards, driver's licenses, GNIB Registration Certificates and other forms of identity cards can be used for identification." At the same time User St170e who is citizen of Ireland removes a claim that the passport card is also an identity card and writes "Passport card serves purely for travel purposes only". Does that mean that cards for identification are never needed in Ireland, or that the passport card is not accepted for such purposes, or that one article is wrong? What is the truth?--BIL (talk) 21:56, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Of course it can be used for identification, but writing it in the article implies that the passport card is a national identity card, which simply isn't the case. st170e 12:37, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Then what is the definition of an identity card, and if the passport card is not one, then what can we write? Identification card? Card usable for identification purposes? Is there a general term for what banks or other institutions needing to identify their clients, ask for? May I see your ... card?--BIL (talk) 15:13, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, usable for identification purposes is fine because it's government issued. I'm only stating we can't imply it is a national identity card because the government doesn't want one (and public opinion is against one). As long as we clarify it isn't a national identity card then it's fine. st170e 15:33, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

International definition

EU countries allow other EU citizens to prove it by showing their passport or identity card. There are two sources about that, no 19 and 20 in the article, which go to official legal or governmental information. No 20 [4] is British and allows passport or a national identity card. Can someone find a source to if the Irish passport card is defined as a passport or an identity card internationally, like by UK police? The international ICAO standard [5] require passports to have a TD3 Size (88.0 mm × 125.0 mm) data page. Smaller card are called Official Travel Documents, but might if they can be called identity cards, might also be called passports? --BIL (talk) 14:48, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I've found this which is a UK government guide for identifying Irish nationals, and refer to the passport card in their own category. It's a confirmation of identity and of nationality, it's not an identity card and it's not a passport; it's regarded simply as a passport card. I'm going to find more info on the EU website. st170e 17:17, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

The EU, per this consider the passport card to be a 'travel document' issued to ordinary citizens. st170e 17:20, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Passport card and non-EU countries

Passport card, 2nd para: ... the Irish passport card can be used for air travel and throughout the European Economic Area and Switzerland and some non-EEA countries such as Albania, Bosnia, Moldova, Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, North Macedonia, Montserrat...

Passport card, 4th para: In addition, Serbia and North Macedonia, who accept identity cards from other EU countries, have stated they do not accept the Irish passport card, meaning Irish citizens remain obliged to present a passport book when entering those countries.

I don't know what the right answer is, but it seems that one of those two is probably wrong.

STeamTraen (talk) 19:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Kaliningrad

Shouldn't the map be updated to show that Irish passport holders can enter Kaliningrad Oblast with a free-of-charge e-visa? Ireland is the only English-speaking country whose nationals are part of this scheme. Unfortunately I don't know how to edit these maps. See https://electronic-visa.kdmid.ru/klgd_home_en.html NFH (talk) 18:19, 2 February 2020 (UTC)