Talk:Isabelle Eberhardt

Photos

There are photos of her in existence; there's one on the cover of her diaries biut I can't don't have a scanner, only a camera. As she's been dead over 100 years I'm guessing any image is Public Domain so if folk can find a good one that'd be great. Chaikney 14:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Bravo for the major improvement! There are some small typo's but it looks really very good! I have no pictures and even if they are old I am not sure whether they would be public domain. There are many on the web (google images: search on Isabelle Eberhardt) but they are maybe too small.--User:AAM | Talk 21:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Wahhabi

"She had converted to the austere Wahabbi form of Islam and regarded it as her true calling in life." I truly doubt she was a Wahhabi for two reasons. First, the Wahabbi doctrine hadn't reached North Africa at that time (it is mainly isolated to Saudi Arabia to this day, although petro dollars have been successful in propagating it elsewhere). Second, if she was a "Wahabbi" Muslim she would have no association with the Qadiri sufi order. Historically, Wahabbis fought and massacred many sufis in Arabia, and sufism to this day is banned in Saudi Arabia. If Eberhardt participated in a Jihad that doesn't make her a Wahhabi. If there is substantial proof she was a Wahabbi, please post it, otherwise please consider revising this article.

I am not very familiar with different forms of the Islam. But look at the following reference [1] that says (quote): From a long correspondence with the scholarly Wahab before she even set foot in North Africa, Isabelle was introduced to a reformist strain of Islam known as Wahabism (sometimes Wahhabism) deriving from Ali's own family dynasty. (end quote). This seems to come from an introduction to "The Nomad, diaries of Isabelle Eberhardt" written by Annette Kobak. --User:AAM | Talk 08:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above query. I have read a number of her works and all appear to suggest that she was inclined towards Sufism (One mentioning that she was injured as a result of jealousy from a rival Sufi group) The books generally mention the Qariri and Tijani orders (Isabelle being a Qadiri) In a number of her books she mentions partaking in 'Zirk' and being initiated into the Qadiri order.

This to me is a main problem with wikipedia and why it is to be frank utterly unreliable as you cant quote a book as its not in downloaded format on the internet. The quote you mention (and I in no way doubt your good intentions) is just so obviously wrong. For a start, the Wahabbi movement was not derived from Ali's own family dynasty but from Muhammad Abdul Wahhab and the Saudi Family. The Wahabbis are in fact in strong opposition to the Shia strand of Islam (Which is derived from Alis own family dynasty) You would have thought if someone was going to deliberately miss-quote Isabelle they would at least take the time to get their historical facts right.

But hey ho... this is wikipedia. (I will probably get slated now for "non wiki policy" blah blah blah....) (Whatever345 (talk) 19:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC))

tendentious

Please revise the article until it sounds tenable. "I was an anarchist, now I'm a Muslim" does not deserve the giddiness it receives from the tone in which it's delivered in the article. --VKokielov 12:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Writing section

Any problems with just replacing this with a list of works by her? --Ronz (talk) 04:28, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Subjectivity in the lead

Hello. I did not add the "offending" template, but I do agree that thise sentence -- "She was a liberated individual who rejected conventional European morality in favour of her own path and that of Islam" -- is, without the support of a reliable and neutral third-party source, inappropriate because it violates various Wikipedia guidelines. Its removal, on the other hand, solves the problem without ruining a perfectly fine article in any way. Regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 11:56, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Languages?

could someone please verify the "many other languages" she spoke fluently and list them or remove that statement, it seems very unspecific and vague. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.88.85.210 (talk) 23:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

According to one of the sources provided, she spoke Russian, French, German and Italian; at the age of 12 she read Latin and Greek and began to learn Arabic. Hohenloh ⁺ 17:02, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

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"her long-time partner"

According to the intro, Eberhardt was forced to leave in 1901 but was allowed to return a year later -- i.e., 1902 -- "after marrying her long-time partner ... Slimane Ehnni."

Yet, in the "Travels to Europe" section, it's stated that she met Slimane Ehnni after returning to "Algeria in July 1900."

This is what I don't understand - - -

how can he be a "long-time partner" when they'd only known each for less than three years???

Or is my definition of "long-time" --- at least a minimum of 10 - 15 years --- that different from everybody else's? I don't see how 'less than three years' can even be considered as "long-term".

As such, I think the phrase of "long-time" should seriously be considered for removal from the intro (and anywhere else it appears) along with a slight of the sentence. 2600:8800:786:A300:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 02:16, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd consider three years long-term, but sure, I can appreciate that others would not. Also keep in mind she died at 27 so 3 years is a significant chunk of her adult life. I don't feel strongly about changing it, but I'm happy to in order to address your concern. I don't have the authority to change it on the main page but I've removed the term in the article itself. Freikorp (talk) 03:49, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Gender/sexuality

Two big things I think we're missing.

In Diary of A Nomad (the published form of Eberhardt's journals), she mentions that 1. she and her husband had an agreement that she could carry on affairs with women and 2. refers to herself using various gendered words/pronouns/etc.

The translator's foreword in the version I had even made a confused note about it, something to the effect that even when she wasn't passing as a man for safety, she alternated fluidly between seul/seule in French in her private writings.

Strong evidence for this person being transgender and definitely worth noting. See pg 107, the 15th pg on Eberhardt.

I don't have the Diary checked out anymore - anyone got any online sources for her other lovers?

AprilStorms (talk) 17:35, 14 July 2021 (UTC)AprilStorms

I have access to the document you've linked above. I'm not seeing too much to add on that page in question that isn't already covered adequately in the article. Also keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia, not a college term paper. We don't synthesise or draw conclusions from other sources, we only report what the sources say directly. If you want to add information about her being transgender (which I very much think she would have identified as, if it had of been a term used at the time), you're going to need to find secondary sources on the matter. Writing your own opinions based on the source is not allowed. See WP:OR.

If you can tell me what exact edition (and translation) of 'Diary of A Nomad' you're referring to we might be able to add a single sentence on their open relationship, and another on the translator's notes regarding her pronouns, but I would hardly consider these to be 'big things' missing from the article. If you can provide the page numbers, as well as either direct quotes or scans of the book I can get started on that asap, otherwise tell me the edition of the book and I'll attempt to find it myself. Damien Linnane (talk) 05:38, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Isabelle Eberhardt / Si Mahmoud Saad

Certainly Eberhardt is the more recognizable name; I’m not suggesting a change to the article title or anything like that, but I think there should be an in-text shift that changes her style to Si Mahmoud. At the beginning of “Travels to Europe” where it states that she changed her name, we can make the switch and start referring to her by her autonym (the established convention for Wikipedia). —Iguanaparrots (talk) 21:01, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but that's not how we do things here. See WP:COMMONNAME. Both the article title and how a person is referred to should reflect the persons most commonly referred to name. It should also be consistent. I.e we don't refer to Prince (musician) by the other names and symbols he used for the duration he was using them, he's just consistently referred to by his common name throughout the article, regardless of what he was referring to himself as. Damien Linnane (talk) 22:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I see, but I should note that WP:COMMONNAME specifically refers to Article Titles, not the articles themselves. The correct biographical style is in the the guide under Changed Names. It states verbatim that "names should be distributed throughout the lead to mark major transitions in the subject's life," such as Octavian becoming Augustus. I believe that having both her parents die, "[considering] herself free of human attachments and [living] as a vagabond, [relinquishing] her mother's name," and beginning to live life as an Arab man constitutes a major change. Cassius Clay->Muhammad Ali and Cat Stevens->Yusuf Islam are some great examples of this (that also occurred due to their respective conversions to Islam).

In regards to the period in which he was referred to as the Artist Formerly Known as Prince, it only amounted to about 8 paragraphs as he started going by Prince again in 2000. Si Mahmoud Saadi died with her name. It probably isn't feasible to change the Article Title, but I do believe that changing the lead and the later naming would be not only academically correct, but also showing the proper respect to her personal truth.

—Iguanaparrots (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

There's no case for changing the article title whatsoever; I note the article for Yusuf Islam is still titled Cat Stevens, even though Yusuf is his current name. I wasn't familiar with the name change guideline, though this article appears unique from the ones you've highlighted. While I do believe she introduced herself as Si Mahmoud Saadi personally, it's also my understanding she still wrote under the Eberhardt name until her death. Yusuf, by comparison, stopped using the Cat Stevens moniker entirely for decades. Eberhardt arguably would not have been remembered by history at all if she had not been a writer, so should the article not refer to her by her professional name? That question isn't rhetorical. I'm not sure what the precedent is when a subject continually uses two names, though I'm personally very much inclined to use her common name for the sake of simplicity. Also keep in mind this is a neutral encyclopedia, which I don't think should be written with an interpretation of what the subject's personal truth was; you could make the argument she wanted to be remembered as Eberhardt professionally and academically, and considered her personal like very separate from this. I do note this article did pass through a good article nomination, two peer reviews, and a featured article assessment without anyone questioning the current naming convention, though I'm of course open to getting more opinions on the matter that are specifically asked for. Personally though, all things considered, I'm happy to leave it how it is. Damien Linnane (talk) 23:09, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, "personal truth" was an overly-flowery turn of phrase; I should have clarified that I was referring to Wikipedia standards regarding gender identity and name changes. I didn't intend to imply partisanship, my suggestion was solely based off of Wikipedia guidelines as written. I should also be more clear: I'm not suggesting that the Article Title be changed to Si Mahmoud Saadi (I know Eberhardt is more recognizable), but only in periods of the text itself where relevant (post-name change). Guidelines say the Article Title and the lead are different sometimes for that reason. They also explain that alternate names may be used in the article text—such as how how Gdańsk is referred to as Danzig in the appropriate timeframe.

It's also worth noting Lyautey and Barrucand's role; those thirteen listed Works were all published after her death, so they were the ones who made the decision to publish them under that name (after extensive edits), which means that they wouldn't actually constitute self-publications. And from what I read it looks like she actually did write under her adopted name. In fact, Dr. Masha Belenky cites more unbiased researchers and translators who studied her original, unedited writings and it sounds like the majority of her Algerian travel notes, stories and Daily Journals of the time were both written in masculine French grammar and signed as Si Mahmoud Saadi.

I can gather all my sources and elaborate, but if it's going to be a matter of contention then it's obviously not a consensus. I won't press the issue or touch the page but I would, however, be interested in hearing a more neutral voice jump in.

—Iguanaparrots (talk) 15:43, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

This article doesn't get a lot of attention from editors. This is what it looked like before I decided to overhaul and expand it: [2]. Since I got it passed through to become a featured article, it's only gotten drive-by edits from anyone else. It would be nice if more people were interested in helping with the article, so I do appreciate your interest, I guess what I'm saying is don't hold your breath for other people to get involved. So if you want more opinions I'd encourage you to put a neutral request for comment out, though I'd very much appreciate some research done on what name she used herself so new editors can make a more informed decision.

I do agree with your assessment regarding Lyautey and Barrucand; works published after her death were obviously done without her consent. That being said, it's of interest to consider the motivation for publishing under the Eberhardt name, if she did indeed write as Saadi. I mean, even if Barrucand's only motivation for publishing her work was making money, would it not make more sense for him to publish it under her most recognisable name? That in itself could be considered supporting evidence she wrote as Eberhardt.

I haven't researched Eberhardt since around 2017, so my memory is a little hazy. I don't recall reading any sources that commented on her writing under the name Saadi, though that's not to say they don't exist. I would be interested in you elaborating if you can. If the evidence is strong that she did indeed write under that name I would be open to changing her name at that point in the article as per the relevant guideline, though just for the record I personally disagree with the guideline purely on the grounds of consistency and flow of reading. I'm a writer (among other things) by trade and changing a subject's name mid article is a literary equivalent of nails down a chalkboard, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, now that you've broached the subject, I'm also interested to know what the streets named after her in Algiers were in fact called. As in which name do they pay respect to, Saadi or Eberhardt? I'm quite busy at the moment and don't really have the time to research any of this myself (especially considering I'm not the one who wants to make changes), though I just want to make it clear that if you put the effort in and find sources I will very much respect what you find. Damien Linnane (talk) 23:56, 21 December 2021 (UTC)