Talk:John Boydell

John Boydell has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
July 22, 2009	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on November 26, 2007.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that the English engraver John Boydell (pictured) founded the fashionable Shakespeare Gallery in London in 1786, but had to sell it in a lottery in 1804 after he was bankrupted by the Napoleonic Wars?

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Vandalism

This article seems to have been vandalised severely. Who's gonna do something about it? Dddhgg (talk) 16:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Portraits

There are several portraits of Boydell. Can we use the one from the DNB? Awadewit | talk 07:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I started by looking at sources that are known to be public-domain. I didn't find any portraits of John Boydell on Wikimedia Commons or in the Library of Congress online collections. I did find that LoC has Gilray's Shakespeare sacrificed; - or - the offering to avarice and The monster broke loose - or - a peep into the Shakespeare Gallery, but no digital copies are yet available.

The National Gallery of Art lists a Valentine Green mezzotint portrait of Boydell, but it's not available online.

The next option would be some originally copyrighted portrait that is now PD. I would assume that any original portraits of John Boydell would be safely out of copyright. However, where those portraits have been reused in later works, then I assume we need to consider the copyright of that later work (e.g. DNB) if we choose to copy from them. My assumption is that we would be safe to take a portrait from a publication more that 85 years old. The original DNB for Boydell was published in 1886, so that seems safe. Awadewit: Do you have easy access to this to check for (and scan) a portrait? My local reference library doesn't have the DNB, but apparently it is available in the downtown reference library if necessary.

In terms of online images for which copyright or licensing fees are claimed, I've found the following:

13 depictions and portraits of or including Boydell at the National Portait Gallery (of which nine can be viewed online). All of these are not available PD (license fee required), but there is a good selection, including the Gilray satires Shakespeare sacrificed; - or - the offering to avarice and The monster broke loose - or - a peep into the Shakespeare Gallery

pen and wash sketch of Boydell's funerary monument at St Olave, Jewry (at the City of London web site)

The Smithsonian's National Portrait Gallery also lists a 1781 Gilbert Stuart portrait of Josiah Boydell at the Rhode Island School of Design Museum of Art, but it's not shown online and I'm not clear whether there would be any PD rights to it.

Any further ideas? Rupert Clayton (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aha! I've found a couple of PD portraits at the New York Public Library (also this version). What do you think? Rupert Clayton (talk) 17:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's go with NYPL until we have something better (it would also save me a trip to the dusty stacks for the DNB!). I would really like to find this one. I found the "Shakespeare Sacrificed" print somewhere - it's up at Boydell Shakespeare Gallery now. Awadewit | talk 22:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll try to get to it over the weekend. I must have overlooked the Gilray print you had already found. As you can see, I haven't managed much in the way of any edits or additions yet, but I did manage to add a nice engraving of the George Dance's gallery building. Rupert Clayton (talk) 00:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A pic from NPG is now available (see below). It is policy on Commons that the copyright statements on their website are not respected (see Commons:Commons:When to use the PD-Art tag). Dcoetzee 23:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note format

Do you mind if we use the short note format with a bibliography? I find it more aesthetically pleasing and easier to read. The tiny notes make it hard to actually get the source information, in my opinion. Awadewit | talk 10:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. I'll adjust them all to match. What's the procedure for minor references, such as the London Gazette? I'm afraid I'm going to turn your useful Boydell bibliography into a dense list in which it's difficult to see the core works among the peripheral citations? Rupert Clayton (talk) 15:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to include all sources directly related to the subject of the article in the bibliography. Tangential sources only used once, I tend to cite fully in the notes but not in the bibliography. However, I think of the bibliography as a section in and of itself - something that readers might use to further than own research - so I like it to be as complete as possible. Does that make sense? Awadewit | talk 15:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that makes sense. So anything that serves only as a reference for a particular small fact will stay out of the bibliography and appear only in the Notes. I'm going to change your URL for the Oxford DNB to Oxford's own one if you don't mind. It's still not generally accessible, but more people will be able to use this link. Rupert Clayton (talk) 15:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response, and apologies if I have let the cat out of the bag. (I haven't been a podcast listener, but I might check that out.) If you have a brief moment would you check over the Notes and Bibliography and see if it's closer to what you had in mind? I'm not that familiar with MLA style, but it seems to make sense in this context. Rupert Clayton (talk) 17:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They look good to me. I'm just going to have check later about how to do the reprint thing for the DNB. I usually include the links to the articles in the notes, if available, just as courtesy to the reader, but that is optional. Your way is more consistent. Awadewit | talk 17:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New file File:John Boydell by Sir William Beechey.jpg

Recently the file File:John Boydell by Sir William Beechey.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 23:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! This is a beautiful painting and I've added it to the article! Awadewit (talk) 23:51, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Birthplace - Irrelevant Link

There has been misunderstanding in Shropshire that he was born at Dorrington near Shrewsbury, an error repeated in some guide book writers about that village. In fact he was born at Dorrington "in the parish of Woore" (stated on his monument in the church of his burial), near Market Drayton in north-east Shropshire. Dorrington near Shrewsbury was then in the parish of Condover but no Boydells are recorded in the parish registers of the day (which have been published). I have therefore removed the link with that Dorrington, and rephrased the birthplace reference.Cloptonson (talk) 17:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The monument is to be found at St Margaret Lothbury, whence it was removed following demolition of St Olave's in the 19th century.Cloptonson (talk) 21:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your research and updates. It seems that Dorrington Lane is the one "in the parish of Woore" where John Boydell was born and therefore I have linked to it. If you think this is mistaken, please let me know where I misunderstood. Thanks. Rupert Clayton (talk) 07:03, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have no cause to challenge it. Thank you for your intervention.Cloptonson (talk) 20:21, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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