Talk:Kievan Rus'/Archive 10

Archive 5

←

Archive 8

Archive 9

Archive 10

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2024

Change Vladimir had been prince of Novgorod when his father Sviatoslav I died in 972. He was forced to flee to Scandinavia in shortly after. In Scandinavia, with the help of his uncle Earl Håkon Sigurdsson, ruler of Norway

to Vladimir had been prince of Novgorod when his father Sviatoslav I died in 972. He was forced to flee to Scandinavia in shortly after. In Scandinavia, with the help of his ally Earl Håkon Sigurdsson, ruler of Norway. Hakon wasn't a child of Igor and Olga but instead Sigurd and Bergljot. If there is a family relation between the two it is not as close as uncle and nephew. RayquayZzZ (talk) 20:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. NLeeuw (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

 Question: @Nederlandse Leeuw: what seems fine to you, the proposal or the way it's currently phrased? M.Bitton (talk) 16:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The proposal seems fine. There seems to be no evidence of Volodimer' Sviatoslavich (Vladimir the Great) having Haakon Sigurdsson as an "uncle". The passage in question lacks a source. In fact, I do not recall ever having heard of Haakon Sigurdsson before, let alone in connection to Volodimer' Sviatoslavich. It is known that Volodimer' was expelled from Novgorod by Yaropolk following internecine conflict in the 970s, and that Volodimer' was exiled to Scandinavia, returning around 980 with warriors from Scandinavia, but the details are vague. I'll look some sources and literature up for details. NLeeuw (talk) 18:58, 10 August 2024 (UTC) PS: I think the proposal is not enough; the whole mention of Håkon Sigurdsson should be removed as unsubstantiated, see my detailed reply below. NLeeuw (talk) 19:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The whole sentence structure is poor, as if written by someone whose first language is not English. More like:

• Vladimir, prince of Novgorod when his father Sviatoslav I died in 972, was soon forced to flee to Scandinavia. With help from his ally, Norway ruler Earl Håkon Sigurdsson, Vladimir assembled a Viking army and defeated his half-brother Yaropolk in the reconquering of Novgorod and Kiev.

More concise and less wordy. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I delved further into it, and I think the whole mention of Haakon Sigurdsson should be removed.

The Primary Chronicle (PVL) claims that in the year 6485 (977), after Yaropolk killed his brother Oleg (apparently reigning as prince in Derevlia), his other brother Volodimer (reigning as prince in Novgorod), [Volodimer] became afraid and fled overseas (za more, usually understood to mean 'across the Baltic Sea', therefore, 'to Scandinavia', most likely Sweden.) 3 years later in 6488 (980), Volodimer with Varangians marched on Novgorod, telling the governors of Yaropolk that he was declaring war on him. That's it. All we've got is 3 words: za more and "Varangians". There is no mention of 'Scandinavia', Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark' etc. let alone that Volodimer got help from a specific "ruler" called Haakon Sigurdsson. Now, we always need to stress that the PVL is not the only source, nor is it always a reliable source (in fact, it often isn't).

Janet L. B. Martin (2007) essentially recounts the same sequence of events: But after his father died (972) and one of his elder brothers killed the other (977), this prince, Vladimir (Volodimer) Sviatoslavich, fled abroad. After several years of exile he now led a band of Varangians (Norsemen) across the Baltic from Scandinavia. His intention was to depose his half-brother Iaropolk and assume the throne of Kiev. Again, that's it. Although his son and successor Yaroslav Volodimerovich would in 1019 marry Ingegerd Olofsdotter of Sweden, daughter of king Olof Skötkonung of Sweden (reigned c. 995–1022), there seems to be no familial or diplomatic link between Volodimer and any royalty or nobility in Norway around 980.

The enwiki page of Haakon Sigurdsson makes the same claim, but it is based on an unreliable source, namely http://www.katolsk.no/biografier/historisk/vladimi1. katolsk.no is the website of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Oslo, in other words, the Catholic Church in Norway. It says: Yaropolk deposed and killed Oleg, and when Vladimir feared the same fate, he fled to Sweden. Yaropolk conquered Novgorod in 977 and united all of [Rus'] under his rule. Vladimir also went to his relative Håkon Sigurdsson Ladejarl, Norwegian ruler under Danish rule (c. 970-95). In Scandinavia, he collected as many Viking soldiers as he could, and in 978 he returned to [Rus'] with a large mercenary army. Everything corroborates, except the dates (katolsk.no even contradicts itself here) and the third sentence; where does this "his relative Håkon Sigurdsson Ladejarl" come from? It comes out of nowhere, and is never mentioned again. Moreover, it does not say that Haakon actually provided Volodimer with any soldiers; that is a separate sentence. So even if it happened, Volodimer apparently only travelled to his relative in Norway to say 'hi', and then went on to gather some warriors to return to Rus'.

Church websites aren't necessarily unreliable; especially for dating feast days of saints (which scholarly sources usually don't mention), they may be accurate. But this web bio seems to be written by just a church employee (apparently no:Per Einar Odden. categorised as a 'hagiographer', 'architect' and 'Catholic priest'; I don't see any relevant scholarly qualifications for writing history or genealogy, though), mostly for devotional purposes. It seeks to make a connection between 'Saint Vladimir', Norway, and the Catholic Church in Norway, noting that the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church considers him a saint and also suggesting he has also been to Norway. But the sources mentioned below are a ragbag of dubious texts: Sources : Attwater/John, Attwater/Cumming, Farmer, Butler (VII), Benedictines, Delaney, Bunson, Schauber/Schindler, Gorys, Dammer/Adam, KIR, CE, CSO, Patron Saints SQPN, Infocatho, Bautz, Heiligenlexikon, santiebeati .it, en-two.iwiki.icu, britannica.com, oca.org, roca.org, mittelalter-genealogie.de, fmg.ac - Compilation and translation: Fr. Per Einar Odden Last updated: 2008-07-05 01:00

fmg.ac is notoriously unreliable and has de facto been blacklisted (I can link to AFDs but can't be bothered now), WP:BRITANNICA should also be avoided if possible (and it doesn't mention Haakon anyway), using 'en-two.iwiki.icu' in general without providing specific diffs is a huge problem and risks citogenesis, other saints websites and saints dictionaries aren't any more reliable than this website, and so on. Even if some sources are reliable, the lack of inline citations in the katolsk.no bio makes them untraceable. I think we should throw this out as probably false, or at least unsubstantiated. I've been actively reading and writing about Kievan Rus' for over 2 years, and never seen any reliable source mention this Haakon Sigurdsson dude in connection to Volodimer Sviatoslavich. NLeeuw (talk) 19:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

PS: https://maps-huri-ws.net/rusgen/ does not mention any familial ties between Volodimer Sviatoslavich and Haakon Sigurdsson either. If there was one, we could be sure Ostrowski, Raffensperger, Birnbaum and other scholars of Kievan Rus' would have written about it and mapped it. Especially Raffensperger has been making efforts to show these royal familial ties between the reigning families of Rus' and of the rest of Europe. NLeeuw (talk) 20:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

This is a thorough analysis, thanks. I've also checked sources in all relevant languages and haven't found anything about the purported relationship. Alaexis_¿question? 20:10, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome! This kind of stuff is interesting to look up, but it also takes a lot of time to do it properly. I'm not surprised either that I was the one who first raised this issue over 1.5 years ago on 26 January 2023 when I was doing a verification spree of the entire article. But at the time I couldn't be bothered to completely figure it out yet, so I left behind a long note to be resolved later. I guess nobody else bothered to fix it either, so here I am finally doing it myself. NLeeuw (talk) 20:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done I've rewritten the whole paragraph [1]. NLeeuw (talk) 20:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

First capital

The article mentions the Varangians, notably Rurik, establishing their center of power in Novgorod by 862 from where they expended Russia southwards. By 882 Kiev was conquered and made capital of Russia. Therefore, the capitals list should include Novgorod for 862 - 882 and only afterwards Kiev. 2A02:8108:8A80:753A:D5A6:4021:71B1:ED37 (talk) 14:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

No. There have been extensive discussions about this issue in 2023, search the talk page archive for details. NLeeuw (talk) 20:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)