Talk:Killing of Jamarion Robinson

DYK nomination

Did you know ...

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 09:08, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that the District Attorney of Fulton County, Georgia, sued the U.S. Department of Justice after it refused to cooperate with his investigation of the shooting of Jamarion Robinson?
  • ALT1:... that after shooting Jamarion Robinson 59 times, police officers handcuffed his hands behind his back, dragged his body down a flight of stairs, and refused to cooperate with an investigation by the District Attorney of Fulton County, Georgia?

Created by BarrelProof (talk). Self-nominated at 16:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC).

• Comment: I personally think ALT1 is more interesting and is adequately supported by sources, but some people might find it inflammatory. There are also other aspects that could alternatively be included as the hook, such as the lack of use of body cameras, the nearly three-minute duration of the shooting, and the flash-bang grenade. —BarrelProof (talk) 02:24, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing: - Refs #3 ([1]), #4 ([2]) and #6 ([3]) give me an "Access Denied" error—this is likely just be a geolocation problem on my end, but archiving the links would be helpful.
• Neutral: -
  
  • "The case was highlighted as an example of alleged excessive force by law enforcement officers, potential systemic racism in law enforcement, a lack of sensitivity in police interaction with mentally ill people, a lack of transparency surrounding the actions of police officers" – Strong claims like these in the lead need multiple high-quality sources, but as far as I can see these facts have none.
  • "Paul Howard ... was frustrated in his efforts to obtain information about it" — if this is "frustrate" as in the emotion, then the sources don't say this and it needs rewriting. If it's "to frustrate" as in "to be disrupted" then better wording can be chosen.
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - Close paraphrasing issues—we do need to keep legally contentious information as accurate as possible, but wording cannot be copied this exactly:
  • From AJC: rephrase "fired a gun at police during a previous confrontation" and rewrite "The officers named in the suit were from the Atlanta Police, East Point Police, Fulton County Police, Clayton County Fire and Police departments, Fayette County Sheriff's Office and the U.S. Marshals Service" (you could name the organizations in alphabetical order instead).
  • From KIII: rephrase "arrest Robinson at the request of Gwinnett and Atlanta police departments" and "for allegedly pointing a gun at officers and then running away when confronted at a friend's apartment complex".
  • From Fox: change the first word of "blocked his prosecutors from interviewing the officers who" to "prevented".
• Other problems: - "It was reported that U.S. Marshals were never wearing body cameras"—remove italics (shouldn't be used for emphasis).

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - Can you give me quotes for each of the relevant facts in ALT1? I can't access ref #3 but #8 only says McCall was methodical as he observed a blood trail going down the stairs as if Jamarion’s body was dragged down the steps after being shot (emphasis mine), so why are we saying this as fact?
• Interesting:
• Other problems: - I think the inflammatory issue here is in conflating the shooting incident and the refusal to co-operate with an investigation. I think we need to choose one or the other. ALT0 is good for the latter (and I'll approve it if you choose it). For the former, I'll offer the following, which I think is better and fully acceptable, but I will warn that there's a higher risk of it getting pulled by an admin or complainant later in the process:

• ALT2: ... that after Jamarion Robinson was shot 59 times by police officers, his body was handcuffed and dragged down a flight of stairs?

QPQ: None required.

Overall:

• Thanks for the comment on the talk page explaining the 59/76 dispute; it seems clear to me that 59 is the correct figure.
• I've not checked everything in the article head to toe but after the above issues are fixed, I will do a couple of spotchecks and not pass the review until I'm confident that everything is correct, given the highly WP:BLP-sensitive nature of the topic, so you might want to go over the article again and make sure everything is tightly verified.
• This is an article we've desperately needed for months or years now, so thank you for your hard work in its creation and expansion. — Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 13:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you for the helpful review. It may take me some time to address all points adequately. I believe I've taken care of the manner of listing the police departments. About the italics, I'm not sure whether you're just suggesting to use "{{em|never}}" instead of " ''never'' " or to remove the italics altogether. MOS:EMPHASIS seems to allow emphasis, but if the emphasis is not appropriate, it is easily removed. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:39, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Huh, this is my mistake. I was suggesting removal because I thought it was against MOS but apparently not. I would still recommend removal because I don't think it's necessary and I think it brings an emotive tone to the sentence which goes against NPOV, but use {{em}} if you feel strongly on keeping it. — Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 08:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
• At this point I believe I have resolved all of the identified problems. I added source citations for each entry in the list of highlighted issues in the lead section and provided archive links for the three sources that were difficult to access. One source for the treatment of the body and the scene is in the WMAZ-TV article: "The family questions why, after so many bullets fired, police still felt the need to handcuff Robinson behind his back and drag him from the second floor landing to the living room. Robinson was also found by the medical examiner, wearing an oxygen re-breathing mask." The Barnes Rolling Out article of August 15, 2016, describes the scene at the top of the stairs and the blood trail down the stairs to the living room, "McCall was methodical as he observed a blood trail going down the stairs as if Jamarion’s body was dragged down the steps after being shot. At the top of the stairwell, there was a large pool of blood soaking into the carpet.". I was using "frustrate" in the sense of being blocked from progress rather than in the emotional sense. I have rephrased that aspect and removed the {{em}} use that we discussed. The sourcing seems unquestionable for the ALT0 hook, so perhaps we should just use that. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:31, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
  • @BarrelProof: very sorry about having not replied for weeks—I was in a busy period in real life and it somehow passed me by on my watchlist. I'm satisfied that everything is fully addressed, particularly the paraphrasing issues and questions I had over verifiability in the sources I couldn't read. I think we're agreed that ALT0 is the safest hook to use, so ALT0 approved. — Bilorv (talk) 19:06, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

The number of times he was shot

There are conflicting reports about whether he was shot 59 times or 76 times. Most sources seem to report the number 76. But according to the medical report, while there were 76 wounds, 59 of them were entry wounds and the other 17 were exit wounds: "The medical report for Robinson lists 76 bullet wounds – 59 of those wounds are believed to be where bullets entered his body, 17 mark where they exited." I believe that accounts for the difference – one shot can produce both an entry wound and an exit wound, so I believe the official number of times he was shot is 59, although the number of wounds is 76. Of course, when someone has been shot that many times, it is probably difficult to establish an exact count – some shots may go through the same wounds. But 59 seems like the correct number to report.

References

—BarrelProof (talk) 21:13, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

No-knock warrant

There is at least one source that is cited in the article that says the officers were serving a "no-knock warrant". However, most of the other cited sources do not say this. On the contrary, one of them says "When the team knocked on his girlfriend's door and Robinson failed to answer, they broke down the door and entered, firing submachine guns and pistols," and another one says that according to a lawsuit filing, it "was supposed to be a knock warrant operation". I have therefore removed the mention of it being a no-knock warrant. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:45, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 16 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 23:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

---

Shooting of Jamarion Robinson → Killing of Jamarion Robinson – Per WP:Deaths. Inexpiable (talk) 10:38, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.