Talk:Kitsune

Bogus refcite(s?)

Although the statement "The victim is always a young woman, whom the fox enters beneath her fingernails or through her breasts" in the "Kitsunetsuki" section is cited to page 59 of Nozaki's Kitsune book, it's completely unsupported in the Scribd scan of the book itself at http://www.scribd.com/doc/3870634/Kitsune-Japans-Fox-of-Mystery-Romance-and-Humor-by-Kiyoshi-Nozaki . My computer is too sluggy right now for me to check some of the other refs within the book, but someone should really go in and verify more of the supposed citations. -- Wombat1138 (talk) 02:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

In Fiction

The section on Kitsune in fiction needs to be seriously reworked; perhaps it would be best to remove the simple list of occurrences (which is just a fancrufty "in popular culture" list) in favor of the simple statements in the first paragraph: that Kitsune are portrayed in numerous works of theater and manga. What are others thoughts? Cheers! Scapler (talk) 11:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

This seems to be a big problem in several of the Japan-related articles; Haniwa had some similar issues. I strongly favor removing the list unless someone can provide any implications of why the portrayal is significant.Konamaiki (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

In the interest of keeping this article anywhere near FA status (which it has fallen below), I will be bold and remove the section. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 20:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Copyedit fun

http://academia.issendai.com/foxtales/japan-lafcadio-hearn.shtml And on some part of the body of the possessed a moving lump appears under the skin, which seems to have a life of its own. Prick it with a needle, and it glides instantly to another place. By no grasp can it be so tightly compressed by a strong hand that it will not slip from under the fingers. Possessed folk are also said to speak and write languages of which they were totally ignorant prior to possession. They eat only what foxes are believed to like—tofu, aburage, [9] azukimeshi, [10] etc.—and they eat a great deal, alleging that not they, but the possessing foxes, are hungry.

Rewrite time? Hcobb (talk) 04:24, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Oldest legend, happy end?

The source for the oldest fox legend is given as Hamel 2003, p.89.The text however, is from 1915 and does not provide a name for the respective "old legend of 545." I have never found a reference to such an old text in academic works. I assume that Hamel actually refers to the story in Nihon ryôiki (Miraculous stories of Japan), a collection of stories from the early 9th century (c.f. Nakamura 1997: 104-105). Wikipedia Japan, btw, also gives the Ryôiki as the oldest source of kitsune legends. The Ryôiki dates the story into the era of Kinmei Tennô (r. 539–571) and Ono is actually a place name, but otherwise Hamel's version is in essence a shortened version of the Ryôiki text. The end, however, is different: The fox woman reappears only once and finally vanishes for ever. This tragic highlight of the story is exemplified in a poem that became a constant element also in several later versions of the same story:

Love fills me completely / After a moment of reunion / Alas, she is gone (Nakamura 1997, pp. 104–105)

--Bescheid (talk) 20:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC) reformated with bibliographical additions Kiyoweap (talk) 23:21, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I don' think your summary (she reappears only once and finally vanishes for ever) is correct, Bescheid.

In the primary text I've linked to, the husband asked "Please come ALWAYS and sleep with me", and the vixen-wife complied: so the logical conclusion was that "..every evening she stole back and slept in his arms", just as Hamel had surmised.

That said, the opinion/POV (by Shimeru in the edit here) that "This story is an exception to the norm in that it does not end tragically" does not seem to appear in the source given (Goff). so it could still be faulted as a {{cn}}.--Kiyoweap (talk) 23:21, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

References

WPJ rating

Sorry to say, I'm not fully convinced by the new WPJ high rating. I agree that in Japan kitsune have significant coverage in folklore (after all there's enough to write a featured article on it!), my concern is that to be "high" the topic must have "had some impact outside Japan" which I'm not sure is the case. I think it would be a surprise to many that the fox is an important aspect of Japanese folklore, it doesn't epitomise Japan like the crane or the cherry blossom. Yes, there are examples of foxes in Japanese products which have been exported, but I would doubt that many would make the link between the products and kitsune. Please feel free to give me examples to convince me otherwise JTST4RS (talk) 10:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that "kitsune" may not have significant impact outside Japan, though I'm not sure how stringently we should apply that criteria. I also consider this: If I was to pick up a hard-copy encyclopedia of Japan, how likely would I find "kitsune" in there? It might not be in the most essential categories (Top-importance), but could I reasonably expect to find it in a text with broad, comprehensive coverage of Japan? Boneyard90 (talk) 13:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that "kitsune" is likely warrant a few sentences/maybe a paragraph or two in a comprehensive encyclopaedia/in a text focussed on folklore, though to me that seems to fulfil "Subject fills in more minor details" as opposed to "Subject contributes a depth of knowledge to the encyclopaedia". Regardless, I don't feel I have a strong enough objection to the rating of "high" if the "outside of Japan" criteria is not strongly adhered to, though I fear that it could end up being another topic for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan since the assessment page does claim that it is a "must"... JTST4RS (talk) 13:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with JTST4RS on it being of lower importance. I do think it is of great importance to the lore of Japan but can't see the greater world impact. Mid seems most applicable with the topic not being well known to people outside Japan. I am no expert on folklore however so I could be persuaded otherwise. --Molestash (talk) 03:39, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. Let's give it a week from the first post, and if nobody else weighs in, we can downgrade it. Boneyard90 (talk) 12:54, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Koan

Paragraph 3 of Kitsune § Shapeshifting reads:

One folk story illustrating these imperfections in the kitsune's human shape concerns Koan, a historical person credited with wisdom and magical powers of divination. According to the story, he was staying at the home of one of his devotees when he scalded his foot entering a bath because the water had been drawn too hot. Then, "in his pain, he ran out of the bathroom naked. When the people of the household saw him, they were astonished to see that Koan had fur covering much of his body, along with a fox's tail. Then Koan transformed in front of them, becoming an elderly fox and running away."[reference]

The link for "Koan" is a disambiguation page, and it mentions only one individual, Emperor Kōan. From that article, § Legendary narrative:

• the sixth emperor of Japan, according to the traditional order of succession
• Kōan is regarded by historians as a "legendary emperor" and there is a paucity of information about him. There is insufficient material available for further verification and study.
• The Japanese have traditionally accepted this sovereign's historical existence, and an Imperial misasagi or tomb for Kōan is currently maintained; however, no extant contemporary records have been discovered that confirm a view that this historical figure actually reigned.

The article mentions nothing about divination or foxes in any form. The reference is to a book that I have no access to. I'm removing the dab link, but of course not the reference. --Thnidu (talk) 17:28, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

External links

Sometimes things just "creep in" so would someone look at the "External links" section. It currently has 6 links and I would think some could be incorporated into the article or trimmed. Otr500 (talk) 14:52, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Number of Tales

To the well-meaning editor who is editing this page because he or she doesn't like that math behind how kitsune get multiple tales: this is folklore. It may not make sense, but that's what it is. There's no "rule" that says every 100 years a kitsune magically sprouts a tale. Folklore can be contradictory and can be illogical. Please do not apply mathematical formulas to make uncited changes to this page. If you have a reliable source that specifically details the process in which kitsune grow their tales, feel free to cite it and make edits. But please do not edit the existing citations just because you don't like the math. Your edits will be reverted. Osarusan (talk) 11:14, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

To be honest Kitsunes are the worlds intresting creatures it would be a please to have a pet kitsune - A.K — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.30.252.198 (talk) 02:32, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Featured article review needed

This is a 2006 Featured article that has not been maintained to FA standards:

• Have the issues above been addressed (External links have not)?
• There is considerable uncited text.
• There are listy sections that should be converted to prose.
• See MOS:BADITALICS (non-English proper nouns are not italicized).
• There is considerable MOS:SANDWICHing and poor image layout.
• There is not a consistent citation style.

Unless the article can be brought to FA standard, it should be submitted to Featured article review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Operation Fantasia

[1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/unsuccessful-wwii-plot-fight-japanese-radioactive-foxes-180975932/ about using foxes to demoralize the Japanese during WW2. 2001:56A:FA85:3800:C8CC:F2FB:E25A:C6A5 (talk) 04:23, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Folk tales with Kitsune

Perhaps add a section or list with folk tales that contain kitsune in them?Bchene (talk) 00:54, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Sanderson Kitsune

Maybe a section with modern fiction could be added? Brandon Sanderson has a species of Kitsune in his Skyward fiction series, specifically 'Starsight' and 'Cytonic.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Californicus (talk • contribs) 10:20, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Please see section 2 above about fiction and fancruft. Osarusan (talk) 22:35, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The section "General traits"

Shouldn't this section be merged with "Characteristics"? "Traits" are a type of "characteristic" (or vice versa), correct? ZFT (talk) 05:48, 29 October 2024 (UTC)