Talk:Kopter AW09

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Aviation: Aircraft / Rotorcraft

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Requested move 22 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 17:58, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kopter AW09 → AW09 – With the new acquisition, the correct new name of the aircraft is now "AW09", Kopter is no longer linked to the product brand^[1]

References

^ https://verticalmag.com/news/kopter-sh09-rebranded-as-leonardo-aw09/

– Xister-reply (talk) 12:58, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The guidelines for naming aircraft articles are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Naming and this requires "manufacturer-designation-name". This would mean the name should be either Leonardo AW09 or Kopter AW09. We would not use just AW09, as it is ambiguous. The official websites are also not clear under which company name it is being developed. the Leonardo website is not clear which manufacturer name is appropriate, while the Kopter official website says "Kopter - a Leonardo company". Given that the correct naming is unclear and that the aircraft has been known as a Kopter product for most of its life to date I think it should remain where it is for now as per WP:COMMONNAME, at least until we can see whether it will be sold under the Leonardo name or the Kopter division name. - Ahunt (talk) 13:32, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Ahunt that it doesnt need to be moved, and we would not move it to something ambigious, the current name is still the most used. MilborneOne (talk) 16:00, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now. Ahunt perfectly describes the reasons I kept the article under "Kopter". I had fully intended to move the article to " Leonardo AW09", but after viewing the company's webpages for the AW09, I stuck with "Kopter" as the common name. BilCat (talk) 17:05, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

HIGE sling load

While reviewing the AW09 performance specs for an individual project, I was tickled to find that this aircraft will be able to lift a 3,300 lb external load at 3,000 m while HIGE. That will be quite an accomplishment. Also, since kilograms are in parentheses, shouldn't the meters be also? -- Born2flie (talk) 07:43, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, most of the specifications are metric, which makes sense since the company is EU. So, the external load weight should be in kilos with the pounds in parentheses, and the meters should have a conversion for altitude in feet. The humor of the external load being accomplished HIGE remains. --Born2flie (talk) 08:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have

Fixed the numbers so that metric is first. The cited ref does not support the slung load altitude, it is just a weight limit, no altitude specified, so I have removed that. The humour of the external load being accomplished HIGE remains. As a helicopter pilot I guess I am missing the joke there, perhaps you can explain? - Ahunt (talk) 14:44, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that most slings or longlines are closer to HOGE height (1.25 rotor diameter) in length or longer, or at least put the helicopter near the limits of what can be considered in ground effect. When a helicopter is limited to HIGE performance things are getting dramatic. So, I pictured a light helicopter in HIGE at its most extreme (and most efficient), a low hover, trying to lift an external load of 3,000 lb, and I thought, "That has to be the shortest sling/longline ever!" Apologies if the previous edit was yours, it is just that I have never found that description of an external load limit in all of the AW09/SH09 literature I have looked at or in any of the manuals of the aircraft that I fly/have flown. Born2flie (talk) 20:16, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Disclosure: I say any and aircraft (plural) like there have been a lot. It is two helicopter manufacturers and 4 models in total, all light turbines. Born2flie (talk) 20:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah it is possible to hover in ground effect with a slung load, but it does need to be on a short line! The ref didn't mention a slung load, so I guess it is a moot point. - Ahunt (talk) 23:01, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the Bell 407, the performance chart for HIGE specifies a 1.2 m (4 ft) skid height. For the AS350B3, the chart for HIGE specifies a 1.5 m (5 ft) skid height. Those aircraft are the same rotor diameter as the aircraft in this article. That is the technical basis for my humor, that HIGE is specifically defined in those performance charts.

I noticed your userbox for firefighting helicopters, so I looked up the data on helicopter buckets. The closest load to 1,500 kg (3,300 lb) I found for Bambi Buckets was the 1,230 l (320 gal) with a 7 m (23 ft) total length or about 0.657 rotor diameter--over halfway to HOGE, but that is before the bucket breaks contact with the ground. I agree that is technically in ground effect, but in that transition range where ground effect is definitely diminishing. Aerial Fire Control only showed medium helicopters with longlines in their photos for buckets in that size. Do light helicopters normally utilize that size bucket? -- Born2flie (talk) 16:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS4 and new engine

24 January, Kopter teased the release of prototype PS4 with a short YouTube video.[1] Yesterday (26 January), Leonardo and Safran announced a partnership with a new engine for the AW09, the Arriel 2K, along with a photo of PS4 on the ramp with the new engine already installed.[2][3] No information is out on the Safran website about the new engine yet, but the Kopter website has updated the AW09 specs with the new engining and have the takeoff power rating at 1,000 shp.[4][5] Meanwhile, the Leonardo product page for the AW09 still shows the Honeywell HTS900 at 1,020 shp.[6] -- Born2flie (talk) 17:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

AVweb has an article on this: https://www.avweb.com/ownership/engines/safran-arriel-2k-to-power-aw09/ - Ahunt (talk) 21:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have updated the article text to reflect this. - Ahunt (talk) 15:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Specifications for Ceilings

The note for both ceiling specifications (service ceiling and takeoff and landing max altitude) claim to reference an "EASA RFM Rev 2 from mid-2025". I couldn't pinpoint when those edits were made, but I like the time traveling angle. Maybe that is why I couldn't find them, they are from the future? --Born2flie (talk) 00:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I just didn't look that hard. --Born2flie (talk) 00:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://verticalmag.com/news/kopter-sh09-rebranded-as-leonardo-aw09/

[1]