Talk:Ló͘-bah-pn̄g

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References? Original research?

It's important to give references for the information here (and in any other article you create). For example, if there has been a 'fierce debate' in Taiwan about Minced Pork Rice, we want to know where. It could be evidence of notability.
Also the section on etymology sounds like original research by you. You should only include research and conclusions that have been made in authoritative sources elsewhere.
On a minor point, this is the English language Wikipedia so it may be better to have an external link to a recipe in the English language. Sionk (talk) 14:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified (January 2018)

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Taiwanese?

@Jjj84206: The 2nd paragraph clearly states that it likely came from Southern Fujian ("minced pork rice was brought to Taiwan by Fujianese immigrants"), with sources, so I don’t think the "Taiwanese" label belongs in the lead. Please undo your reversion of my edit. Phlar (talk) 04:35, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlar: Thanks for your edits. However, I'd like to point out that citation 3, 4, or 5, nowhere does it mention that the dish came from Fujian. I also would like to mention that these citations are blog posts/recipes. These are NOT reliable sources or experts/historians. For example, citation 3 mentions that Minced Pork Rice resembles those in Fujian, then citation 4 and 5 immediately uses 3 (which is unrealiable to begin with) that Minced Pork Rice is likely from China. I suspect the prior editors were forcibly making connections to China.

You'll notice that 滷肉飯 is different from 魯肉飯 (where 魯 represents China's Shandong province, and that's likely where it came from). But this is a different dish that was created in Taiwan. Time and time again, I've seen many Taiwanese or other food being called "Chinese" origin just because China has a province that serves it. This is very irresponsible editing. Just because China serves it doesn't make the dish "originate from China". In that case, are you going to call Spaghetti Chinese since it's made of noodles? Are you going to call Ramen Chinese? China has a lot of population/land/rich history, saying everything is from China is unfair and not accurate. Are you suggesting Pho should be Chinese too? Just because China consumes it in ancient China, does NOT make it Chinese. Just because China has something similar does not make it Chinese. The Minced Pork Rice back in ancient China or in current Fujian is different from the ones currently in Taiwan - and there's no denial that when you talk about Minced Pork Rice - everyone is referring to the Taiwanese one. I have never seen or heard of something called Fujian Minced Pork Rice. In western countries, only Taiwanese restaurants sell Minced Pork Rice, not Chinese.Jjj84206 (talk) 05:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jjj84206:: You might be right, but this isn’t what the body of the article says. The MOS:LEAD should summarize the content of the article and definitely should not contradict it. As they stand now, the Origin and Etymology sections both imply that the dish originated in the Zhou Dynasty, which ended more than a thousand years before Han people settled in Taiwan, and the latter section describes the controversy over the dish’s origin. Claiming in the lead that the dish is Taiwanese contradicts the body text and gives undue weight to one side of the controversy. If you must have “Taiwanese” in the lead, how about "…a rice dish, possibly of Taiwanese origin, that is commonly seen throughout Taiwan and Southern Fujian"? Phlar (talk) 13:39, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlar: I don't see any source for the Zhou dynasty thing. You also questioned where this source is from. I don't think it's a reliable source either. Also, Zhou dynasty is thousand of years ago. There's no way someone can assertively say that Minced Pork rice originates in this era. Minced Pork rice, even if it exists at that time, will be very different from the ones today. You can only say Minced Pork Rice originates from Zhou Dynasty, if over the course of history, you find evidence that the Zhou Dynasty Minced Pork Rice slowly develops to the ones we see in Taiwan today. If there's no continuity, then you can't say that. Like I mentioned, noodles were once created by Chinese long time ago, but that doesn't mean ramen, spaghetti, pho, beef noodles soup, instant noodles...etc, are all built off the ancient Chinese noodles.

Ultimately, Minced Pork rice is very easy to make. You simply make rice and add meat sauce. However, when people refer to Minced Pork Rice, they most likely refer it as the Taiwanese one since it's the dominant form and whats most famous of. And it's true that it's created by Taiwanese street vendors. The name coined as Minced Pork Rice is also made by Taiwan (滷肉飯). Other countries or China may have something similar but they call it other things (肉燥飯) among others. I'm also trying to be consistent with the Chinese Wikipedia page.

@Jjj84206: Everything you're claiming might be true, I'm not arguing that point. But the fact is, the "Taiwanese" claim in the lead contradicts the ambiguity and controversy described in the body text. If you want to keep the lead as it is, then you've got to edit/improve the body to support this. Phlar (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jjj84206: OK, I just realized that this sentence read "...a Chinese rice dish..." for years until two weeks ago when you changed it to "...a Taiwanese rice dish...." You provided no source (and no edit summary, incidentally) for this change. I am going to revert it back to "Chinese" per WP:BRD, although I think omitting both "Chinese" and "Taiwanese" from this sentence would be a good compromise. Phlar (talk) 19:36, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlar: This page was "Taiwanese" before someone changed it without any reference, so under your argument above, I can say the same. I'm going to leave it as no origin for now until I have time to add in more sources. But do note all other Wikipedia pages refers this as Taiwanese dish. You also did agree with all my points above that this is a Taiwanese dish, yet you unilaterally changed it back to Chinese - seems like a very politically motivated edit on your part.