Talk:Libingan ng mga Bayani

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

RM, Libingan ng mga Bayani → Cemetery of the Heroes / Cemetery of the Heroes (Philippines), no consensus, 1 March 2009, discussion
RM, Libingan ng mga Bayani → Heroes' Cemetery, moved, 26 November 2011, discussion
RM, Heroes' Cemetery → Libingan ng mga Bayani , moved, 25 July 2020, discussion

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Heroes' Cemetery (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 01:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Federal Land Tower.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IPA typo

It should be [ba'ja:ni] since ⟨y⟩ in Tagalog represents /j/. BoomerBoxer (talk) 10:15, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 November 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Libingan ng mga Bayani be renamed and moved to Heroes' Cemetery (Philippines).

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Libingan ng mga Bayani → Heroes' Cemetery (Philippines) – This requested move may reverse a page move request that I actually initiated roughly four years ago. From the fallout of the Wikimedia Commons discussion concerning this specific cemetery, it was concluded that English is the default language. English Wikipedia has far stronger emphasis on the use of English names as the preferred language for article titles, as per Talk:Quebec/Archive 8#Requested move (Quebec vs. Québec), reiterating WP:USEENGLISH which states "This is the English Wikipedia. Article titles should be written in English."

Several English-language sources outside the Philippines use "Heroes' Cemetery", such as:

From Arkansas Democrat Gazette, 2022
From Voice of America, 2016
From The Edwardsville Intelligencer, 2016
From The Guardian, 2016
From KoreaTimes, 2023 (which strangely uses the lesser-known variation "Cemetery of the Heroes")
From CTV News (Canada), 2016
From Yonhap News Agency, 2023
From BBC, 2016
From Deutsche Welle, 2016
The Diplomat, 2016
From South China Morning Post, 2016
From Nikkei Asia, 2016
From Wall Street Journal, 2016, and
From Fox44 outlet (KWKT), 2022.

As English Wikipedia serves all international readers and not just Filipino readers, it is fitting to reverse my 2020 move request and reinstate the use of English-language name of the cemetery, which is being used by these English-language non-Filipino news agencies and outlets. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Is Heroes' Cemetery ever used in real-world contexts in the Philippines? I think Philippine English-language sources carry more weight on this compared to the sources above, which are foreign. HueMan1 (talk) 09:39, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, Philippine sources are infinitely more numerous than from those outside it, "LnmB" has a clear advantage than any name. This was moved because an Indian(!!!) source called as such. Like WTF? Howard the Duck (talk) 12:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, I wouldn't even consider "Heroes' Cemetery" as a proper name for this one–just a mere translation. With that being said, I am now turning this comment into a proper !vote: oppose. HueMan1 (talk) 13:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be interested what the English name of the cemetery is, provided "LnmB" is not English. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Death, Tambayan Philippines, WikiProject Military history, and WikiProject Cemeteries have been notified of this discussion. HueMan1 (talk) 11:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose and edit. Aside from arguments in previous discussions that have reiterated WP:COMMONNAME, Heroes' Cemetery is used as an unofficial (since it is not dictated by official sources) English translation of the name. To use that as the name would be implying that other articles like Batasang Pambansa Complex should be renamed to "National Legislature Complex" or Lupang Hinirang should be renamed to "Chosen Land" just because it needs to be in English. Also, some local media outlets use both terms interchangeably as appositions where they use the official "Libingan ng mga Bayani" and refer to it as a "heroes' cemetery", as in the case of these articles from GMA, Philstar, and Rappler. It would be better instead for the Libingan ng mga Bayani article to mention in its lead section that it is also referred to as the "Heroes' Cemetery". This will allow readers of articles that call it as such to identify it as one and the same without jeopardizing the widely known and commonly understood name of the place.

Ganmatthew (talk • contribs) 13:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is fine as it stands. It can't be known as something it isn't. "Heroes's cemetery" (small caps) is just a translation. HueMan1 (talk) 14:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Per common name and also because the way I understand it Philippine English has more leeway in this situation. Borgenland (talk) 13:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If only the commuting public and the transportation sector were an RS, there would have been no need for this move. Borgenland (talk) 02:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I still haven't seen concrete evidence that "HC" is more commonly used in English-language sources over "LnmB" especially given the fact that many English news outlets in the Philippines prefer using the native name in their English articles. —seav (talk) 15:53, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination. The sheer number of English-language sources submitted above is convincing in determining that "Heroes' Cemetery" or simply "Heroes Cemetery" is the cemetery's name in the English-speaking world. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Damn, all English language sources in the Philippines that cover the cemetery 1000× more then the WSJ just obliterated as not from the English speaking world. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:05, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- "Marcos visits dad at Libingan ng mga Bayani on All Saints’ Day" from the Philippine Daily Inquirer, is not from the English speaking world
- "Departed heroes honored at Libingan ng mga Bayani on Undas" from GMA News is not English
- "Libingan ng mga Bayani secured for Undas — Army" from Manila Standard is not English
- "Over 80K Libingan ng mga Bayani visitors eyed by Sunday — Army from the Daily Tribune is not English
All of these are probably not English. Roman Spinner, do you understand those headlines I posted? Are those not English? Would we have to blacklist those as WP:RS? What does "English speaking world" mean? Only settler countries? Damn, those Thomasites are crying in their graves now. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably the US and the UK. Ironically, the Philippines has more English speakers than the UK itself. HueMan1 (talk) 02:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose UK doesn't count as a settler country as that's the birthplace of English... unless someone'll say England. Howard the Duck (talk) 04:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Howard the Duck, I obviously need to expand upon the reasons for my vote. Since it is apparent that you and the nominator have been editing Wikipedia for a number of years and have evident expertise on subjects related to the Philippines, your divergence of view leads me to arrive at conclusions based upon the presented facts.

As for my comment regarding the English-speaking world, it was specifically referencing countries where English is the native language as well as the primary language of the country's population. Thus, to present a distinct example, only a tiny percentage of cinematic productions and drama TV series in the Philippines (and in the world's most-populous English-speaking country, India) are produced in English (Category:English-language Philippine films).

On this point, English-language newspapers in countries where English is not the native language, as well as the primary language of the majority of the country's population, may not reflect common references in the English-speaking world. For instance, Ukraine's English-language newspapers, Kyiv Post and Kyiv Independent have been always using Ukrainian city names "Kyiv" and "Odesa", but the English-speaking world only fully stopped using those cities' Russian names "Kiev" and "Odessa" when the Russo-Ukrainian war erupted.

Furthermore, Turkey's English-language newspapers call the country "Türkiye", but in the English-speaking world, it is still referenced as "Turkey". English-language newspapers in the Portuguese-speaking world refer to "Timor Leste", but in the English-speaking world, it is still "East Timor". English-language media in the French-speaking world uses the country name "Côte d'Ivoire", but in the English-speaking world, it remains as "Ivory Coast", etc. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:16, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Also as per MOS:TIES. This is the national heroes' cemetery. Notice how I use smallcaps. Libingan ng mga Bayani IS in English (Philippine English), the proper noun for the place. Used in a country where the national broadsheets and media outlets virtually all have English-language platform and where English is an official language. By the same logic we should rename Taoiseach to Prime Minister of Ireland then. Frankly this is just an attempt to force a proper English "translation" when there is none needed. Philippine English is a valid form of EnglishHariboneagle927 (talk) 08:48, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]