Talk:List of community radio stations in the United States

KPFA?

Why is KPFA not on this list, when it claims to be complete?

I see that none of the Pacifica-owned stations are on this list, though at least some of the Pacifica Affiliates are. (I didn't check many, but the Pacifica Affiliates I checked were here.)

Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 20:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Great points, @David. I've been wrestling with making these additions while doing other research on community radio in hopes of coming across more recent sources to close the case. For Pacifica stations, I'm not sure whether they still fit the "definition" of community radio. I checked KPFA's website and did find that "the majority of our staff are unpaid community volunteers donating their time and energy to bring you our programming" in a section on the station's purpose. That's part of the definition, but the question I still have is how many volunteers actually host or produce programs or are most announcers, reporters and other air staff paid? A station where nearly everyone on the air is a paid professional is not what Lewis Hill had in mind when he started community radio.

The challenge with lists is identifying whether entries fulfill what is meant by the subject or category. For example, the section where I found the quote on volunteers does not say KPFA is a community radio station, and instead it rather pointedly uses the phrase "community powered" several times, a different matter. I did find the phrase "community radio" elsewhere in a site-wide search, but I'm not certain whether the usages are strong enough. This is often the situation with college stations that are college/community hybrids: if they don't use the phrase more explicitly or a source does not identify them as a community station, I can't add them to the list. Meanwhile, there are numerous LPFMs that I'm sure qualify, except either there are no independent sources to verify their nature or the stations' websites are silent on the issue. So complete this list will never be.

Meanwhile, I'll probably add Pacifica's five stations, as well as the stations under Radio Bilingue. I'd just feel more comfortable if I had current reliable sources to back me up. But if you or others feel differently, I won't quibble if you add them yourself. Allreet (talk) 20:17, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't feel I can devote time to working on this, but there seem to be several related but different categories here: Pacifica stations and affiliates, "Community" radio stations, many but not all of which are members of the National Federation of Community Broadcasters and the Grassroots Radio Coalition.

Just brainstorming, I think it would be useful to have each entry in Wikidata that is an "instance of (P31)" a "radio station (Q14350)" having a "Property" of being a Pacifica station or affiliate and / or member of NFCB and / or GRC, etc., if such applied. Then these lists could be generated from Wikidata and maintained there.

However, that opens up a range of other issues, which I won't attempt to enumerate let alone suggest a way to handle each. DavidMCEddy (talk) 01:19, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Among the sources I've used for initially identifying community stations are the lists you mentioned: Pacfica, NFCB, Grassroots Coalition. The first two of these include stations that are not community stations; for example, many Pacifica affiliates are college stations, and some NFCB members are LPFMs where it's not clear what their orientation is. And then as you note, many community stations are not affiliated with any of these. So that's where it takes more research.

Actually, I've been researching this subject for about 15 years, and more recently I've been pulling together the hundreds of articles I've collected along with information from books, papers and related materials in an attempt to create a few articles on community radio in the U.S. The list of stations is the first of these, while two others include a main article on the subject and a history (in progress). As for adding Pacifica and Bilingue stations to the list, I'll probably get to that in the next few weeks. I was just making the point that you could do the same if the spirit moves you. Meanwhile, I sincerely appreciate your comments and interest. Allreet (talk) 13:40, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Are you aware that the next Grassroots Radio Conference is scheduled for Oct. 4-6, 2019, in Rochester, NY, hosted by "WXIR along with WAYO and WEPL"? If you've been researching this for 15 years, you are probably aware of this and part of the organizing committee. If not, I could provide more info. DavidMCEddy (talk) 14:21, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

KJAC?

User:69.14.145.137 deleted KJAC. My reading of the Wikipedia article on KJAC suggests that it belongs on this list. I'm therefore reverting this change. DavidMCEddy (talk) 22:06, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

@DavidMCEddy: I think we resolved this on my Talk page. My understanding is that KJAC is a traditional public station, meaning it has a professional airstaff, whereas community stations use volunteers for the bulk of their programming. Accordingly, I'm going to remove the station from the list. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 03:31, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Correct Call Signs?

@Stereorock: @Allreet: The revision by User:Stereorock on 2019-09-18T11:30:59 included some anomalies. First, the Wikipedia article on KAZI says it's KAZI. A Wikipedia search for KAZI-FM redirects to KAZI.

However, the station's website www.kazifm.org says they are "KAZI FM". That suggests that the most recent change was correct, and the Wikipedia article on the station is wrong on this point.

By contrast, KCSB is more confusing. Their web site https://www.kcsb.org/about/ says "KCSB-FM" in one place but "KCSB" elsewhere.

Does the FCC make a distinction in their listings?

This is Wikipedia: We have methods for discussing issues like these on "Talk" pages and developing an official, standard answer. Sadly, I don't have the time not to pursue this now.

However, we should not have an edit war over this. Rather, I think we should discuss here what should be the "official" source for deciding when and whether something like KAZI-FM is appropriate, and whether and when any uses KAZI should be used, and which usages should change. Then we would need to encourage a project to research and fix such anomalies.

@Stereorock: @Allreet: Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. DavidMCEddy (talk) 14:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@DavidMCEddy:, the articles should be named by their F.C.C.-issued callsign, & the list should reflect this. If the articles are named correctly, it shouldn't be an issue. I'll check the F.C.C's FM Query & see about those 2 stations.Stereorock (talk) 14:36, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Additional: the correct callsign for KAZI is KAZI; whereas KCSB-FM is the correct callsign there. When another station has the same "base" callsign, the suffixes become necessary, but it's not always the FM station which gets the -FM suffix, nor the TV station which gets the -TV/DT suffix, but at least one will get it. I think KCSB-FM has an associated TV station. In contrast, LPFM stations always have an -LP suffix, and A.M. & shortwave stations never do, in the U.S..

Here is the F.C.C.'s entry for KCSB-FM: https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?call=KCSB&arn=&state=&city=&freq=0.0&fre2=107.9&serv=&vac=&facid=&asrn=&class=&list=0&ThisTab=Results+to+This+Page%2FTab&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

Here is the F.C.C.'s F.M. Query entry for KAZI: https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?call=KAZI&arn=&state=&city=&freq=0.0&fre2=107.9&serv=&vac=&facid=&asrn=&class=&list=0&ThisTab=Results+to+This+Page%2FTab&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

@Stereorock: Thanks. How did you find those?

One of those URLs has 224 characters. You did something to get from "fcc.gov" to 224 characters. Would you mind describing how you did that, so others could easily replicate that for other radio stations? (Teach us how to fish ... .)

Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 15:52, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Sure! Just put "FCC FM Query" into Google. There is also a query for AM & TV. I forget what the direct link is because the F.C.C. is redoing their website.Stereorock (talk) 15:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Wonderful. Thanks. It helps to have the right search terms. Otherwise, it often takes me longer, if I ever find it. DavidMCEddy (talk) 16:03, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Here is the general F.M. Query link: https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/fm-query . When you put the callsign in, you will get sent to the station's page. The callsign will be in blue on the left-hand side. That's the actual callsign, with or without suffix.Stereorock (talk) 23:27, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@Stereorock::The official callsigns of radio stations do not include the AM or FM service suffix. For some random examples from the FCC database: KABF, an FM station, and WAEB, an AM station. If you'll notice, the FCC website makes no distinction in the callsigns (listed at the top next to "Callsign:") and differentiates FM from AM elsewhere. As for what stations include on their own websites, they can do whatever they want. For the most part, that's true even on the air, where KKKK 102.5 FM (fictitious) can identify themselves as K102, K-ROCK, 4K, etc. The only thing a station is required to do is announce their callsign and city of license one time per hour, as in KKKK-Anytown. Note that the two items must be used together, that is, specifically without AM, FM or anything else intervening.

The real issue, then, is that the conventions for naming articles in Wikipedia allow the users originating articles to include or not include the suffix after the station's callsign in the title as the spirit moves them. Sometimes FM or AM appears in parentheses, sometimes following a dash, and sometimes not at all. And so we have WAEB-FM and WAEB or WABF and WABF (AM). As a result of the inconsistency, lists of stations can be confusing, so I chose to use re-directs that eliminate FM/AM and provided a short explanation in the lede: "Unless noted as AM, all stations are FM." Another possibility is to include the FM/AM suffix after the frequency, as is done in other lists, for example, List of radio stations in Kansas or List of NPR stations. So taking WP:Bold to heart, I've done just that. Allreet (talk) 23:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

There are numerous cases of FM stations with a "-FM" suffix as part of the official call sign. Oftentimes it is because there is an AM station with the same call sign when it was first issued (WLS-FM and WBBM-FM for example), but other times they have been issued when there are no conflicts (WERV-FM). AM stations in the United States are never assigned "-AM" suffixes. Radio station articles are not named arbitrarily, their names are based on their official FCC issued call sign. If the official call sign includes an "-FM" suffix, the article is titled that way.--Tdl1060 (talk) 01:27, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Tdl1060 and Stereorock: I stand corrected. The titles of Wikipedia's radio station articles are consistent with the FCC's callsign designations. My mis-impression was based on the infrequency of stations that have callsigns with six letters and with that, the FM designation. Tdl1060 was kind enough to provide an FCC document on the related regulation. BTW, confirming a station's call letters does not require a Google search. The link to the FCC Query page for a station can be found under External Links at the end of the station's Wikipedia article. Allreet (talk) 03:25, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Feedback sought regarding inclusion of LPFMs

Several LPs have been added that do not have Wikipedia articles and by WP standards are therefore non-notable. The vast majority of LPs would qualify as community stations in the sense that most are volunteer-driven and noncommercial in nature. That said, few originated through the broader efforts that led to the licensing of most full-power community stations, such as the formation of nonprofit boards and the building of community-wide coalitions.

There are about 1,500 LPFMs in the U.S. Since this number is significant, as is the LP movement in general, it seems to me the category deserves its own list. My inclination, then, is to remove all of them (rough count: 95 or 1/3 of the list), initiate a separate listing, and link the CR list to the new one. Feedback on these suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Allreet (talk) 14:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mlaffs, Ebbedlila, PoppysButterflies, StinkyGoose, Stereorock, DavidMCEddy, Dsprc, and Britishfinance: I'm alerting all of the active editors from 2019 to present regarding the above suggestions. An alternative to consider is to split the list within the article between full-power and low-power stations. Other suggestions are also welcomed. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 16:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

FYI: I've removed the stations that do not have WP articles based on WP:GNG. Allreet (talk) 16:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@Allreet: Community radio is as much a format as it is how the station is operated, & therefore stations may not be correctly included based on their operation alone. Quite a number air oldies formats and should be included there, for example. Additionally, just because a station doesn’t yet have an article, that does not make the station non-notable, it just might not have an article yet. Stereorock (talk) 01:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Stereorock: Thanks for the reply. Some points of clarification:

• Community radio is defined by community, nonprofit ownership and the direct participation of community volunteers. All LPFM stations in the U.S. satisfy the first part of the definition and many (probably most) satisfy the second.
• I checked for sources on the stations I removed and found none of any note or number, which is where they do not satisfy GNG and generally explains why they do not have articles.
• The formats of community stations pretty much cover the full range of non-commercial possibilities. Community radio in itself is not a format.

My concern is the possible "bloating" of the list with stations of marginal notability. Allreet (talk) 07:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@User:Allreet: not all stations are owned by community groups. Some are owned by churches, & some are owned by educational institutions. A good number of those run other formats (the churches usually run religious programming), & even a group owning a station might not meet the definition of a community station: let’s say a Catholic lay organization owns a station that is running EWTN around the clock; that is a religious station, not a community station. A community station traditionally has met 2 criteria: it is owned by an independent non-profit entity; and its programming is typically Freeform, or at the very least, block-formatted. The programming is also often what is not found on other stations, which is why a community group that owns a station airing an oldies format does not have a Community radio station, but a non-commercial oldies station. A college that owns a station also does not have a community radio station because of its ownership (even though it meets the 2nd criteria, but not the 1st). A good resource about what a community radio station is is “Sex & Broadcasting” by Lorenzo W. Milam, which lays out what a community radio station is. I believe the book “The Radio Station” by Michael Keith also defines a community radio station as such. Some examples of community radio stations are KPFA-Berkley, California; WOMR-Provincetown, Massachusetts; & WMNF-Tampa. College radio stations like WRIU-Kingston, Rhode Island, & WFCF-St. Augustine, Florida, may have community volunteers, but are still college stations. Stereorock (talk) 12:11, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Stereorock College and religious stations represent the fourth and fifth forms of radio, the first being commercial; the second, public; and the third, community. Some college stations have community radio components — WRIU and WFCR are good examples — though the focus of the vast majority is on student programming. I'm also quite familiar with all of the stations you mentioned, though KPFA and other Pacifica outlets are of a somewhat different ilk.

I'm also intimately familiar with Sex in Broadcasting since I have a signed copy. I agree Milam would be the place to start, though much has happened in the 60 years since he started his first station. I'd also suggest Bekken's Seizing the Airwaves (1998), more recent books that take into account LPFM, and the slew of papers that are available on both.

Most of which strays from the issue I raised, which relates to the possibility of obscuring significant community radio outlets with stations of marginal interest. The list includes about 200 full-power stations that satisfy the criteria in terms of their nature, and not one of which raises any questions in terms of format. Meanwhile, there are 2,000 or so LPFMs — originally, I cited 1,500 — and here format is of concern since programming can skew toward what would be considered commercial or monochromatic (all classical, oldies, or some other single mainstream genre).

In any case, a good compromise would be to do as I suggested in my original comment, that is, to create a separate list on LPFMs either on this page or in a standalone article. This would enable clarity for readers on the full-power stations, and leave the LPFM listing for editors to sort out over time. Allreet (talk) 18:44, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Stereorock: After some thought, I've come to the conclusion that many LPFM stations do not meet Wikipedia's GNG criteria for lack of independent secondary sources. I have no doubt as to the importance of these stations as a whole, meaning their significance to community radio in general, but individually, few of them could be considered notable.

All of which is to say, I do not agree with the rationale that someday WP pages may be created on stations that I believe should be excluded. If that were so, it would be acceptable to include all LPFMs that qualify as community stations, whether they have pages or not. Allreet (talk) 16:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Split list into full-power and low-power stations

As proposed in the previous discussion, I have divided the list into two sections. I believe there distinct differences betweem the two types of stations tied to their transmitting power, which in turn affects their nature. I would appreciate feedback from other editors regarding this approach. Allreet (talk) 12:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I don’t want to use the term “elitist” to describe differentiating between the 2, because it seems we don’t make that dilineation between Class D stations (10w maximum) & stations holding licenses in classes A-C. I think you’re not wrong in noting that there does seem to be a difference, but it seems to be more related to when the stations were started that seems to be what’s at play. Stations founded in the 20th century seem to be more an outreach of the New Left, whereas 21st century stations are a different breed, many of which hold LP licenses. Quite a few of these seem to try to emulate commercial formats (like oldies), & think they shouldn’t be included, but belong with their own formats. Stereorock (talk) 11:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Community Radio as a format?

I've been involved in community radio for nearly 40 years and have never heard anyone - from station program directors to NFCB staff to authors of books and papers - refer to a station's format as "community radio". Community Radio is a form of radio, not a format. Since these stations usually carry a wide range of programs, they tend to describe their formats as Variety, Freeform, or Eclectic (which redirects to Freeform).

My concern is that WP editors, myself included, have chosen subjectively to add Community Radio as the format in infoboxes of many stations, especially LPFMs. The practice started as far back as 2004 (first edit found). Yet not one of these edits provides a source, nor can the assertion be supported by the stations' websites, beyond the mention of community radio in their descriptions.

My conclusion is that all of the format listings for the stations in question need to be changed. In most cases, Variety will suffice, unless another term is more apt. Allreet (talk) 17:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

”Eclectic” is a better description, in my opinion. Community Radio, as a format, is a kissing cousin to college radio, except that is independent of a scholastic institution; the on-air content may be block-formatted or completely freeform (or a combination of both), & usually features programming not normally found or underrepresented on more mainstream stations. It is also usually staffed with volunteers as D.J.s with maybe a professional/paid front office. Personally, I’ve never heard it refer to the station ownership. Still, as both of our statements can be construed as WP:OR, I’d like no changed until I can get to my storage unit to retrieve my books. Stereorock (talk) 09:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@User:Stereorock: Thanks for the reply. I'm all for holding off. I've found references to the term "community radio format" in academic papers on community radio worldwide, but these sources use it to describe the media's form and make a distinction between this and programming format. Meanwhile, in years of research, I haven't seen any article, paper, book, or internet source on community radio in the U.S. that uses the term.

WP's Radio Format article, which covers formats fairly well, makes no mention of community radio, either in general or as a type of format. Not too good are Free-form Radio and Variety Radio — both lack citations and appear to be mostly OR. Meanwhile, there is no separate article on Eclectic Radio Format, though the subject is addressed in a section of the Free-form Radio article. (BTW, the section's second sentence is incorrect.)

I'm amenable to using either Eclectic or Variety depending on how sources describe a station's programming. If no independent source can be found, we can rely on a station's website for their self-description. Allreet (talk) 20:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)