Talk:List of topics characterized as pseudoscience/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about List of topics characterized as pseudoscience. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

→

Archive 5

Removing NPOV

I can see one anonymous user disputing the accuracy of the page a month ago, saying that the page is 'inaccurate because it is incomplete', and then coming close to a personal attack on another user. I do not see anyone claiming that there are included theories that should not be there. I do not think this means there is an ongoing debate about the validity of the article. I am therefore removing the NPOV tag. If you wish to replace it, please feel free to do so, stating your reasons here on this talk page signed by writing ~~~~ after your comment.

Misc

Typo: Riemannian Cosmology, proposed by Igor Bognanoff, regarded as illucid or cranky by most mainstream physicists, but defended by a vocal minority. Should read: Riemannian Cosmology, proposed by Igor Bogdanoff, regarded as illucid or cranky by most mainstream physicists, but defended by a vocal minority.

Kosebamse claims that "Gene Ray refutes the scientific method itself". Kosebamse, please explain exactly how Dr Ray does that.

The aquatic ape hypothesis is not anywhere near as fringe as many of the other theories listed here. It is not generally accepted, sure, but it is no longer considered bunk. It has serious science behind it, and a growing number of biologists consider it seriously plausible. RK 00:58 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Okay. Do you agree with my inclusion of Plasma cosmology? If so, put this page on your watchlist and watch out for any edits by Reddi. -- Tim Starling 02:44 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Plasma Cosmology is a protoscience that is being investigated by research around the globe. Is Magnetohydrodynamics fringe? In institutions such as Los Alamos National Labrtory and thier groups [which is one of the better scientific research institutes in north America], Plasma cosmology is being developed.

Are these fringe institutions?

* Plasma Physics and Nonlinear Dynamics Group, Federal University of Parana, Brazil

* Institute of Applied Physics, Russian Academy of Sciences Nizhny Novgorod, Russia

* ETHZ Plasma and Radio Astrophysics Group, Switzerland

* Plasma Physics Group, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine London, United Kingdom

* Astronomy Department (J. Arons), University of California at Berkeley

* Computational plasma physics group, Dept of Physics and Astronomy UCLA, Los Angeles, California

* Astronomy Department (R. Lovelace), Cornell University, Ithaca, New York

* Center for Space Research and Plasma Science & Fusion Center, MIT

* Graduate Program in Plasma Physics, Princeton University [which has a graduate program in plasma astrophysics]

They are all investigating plasma cosmological research.Or is it all speculation?

Is it consisting of hanging threads thought? or is it just an outside the conventional boundary of science? Hannes Alfven , Nikola Tesla, Kristian Birkeland, David Bohm, and Max Born are "Fringe" Physicists? Just wondering ... reddi 15:15 17 Jul 2003 (UTC) more later ....

You waste my time, Reddi, forcing me to research things like that. That LANL link is just Anthony Lee Peratt's personal web space. As far as I could see, there's no mention of plasma cosmology on the official plasma physics group home page. I haven't looked up all those other institutions, but judging by the names they're all just plasma physics groups, not plasma cosmology. Now excuse me while I go and do something useful. -- Tim Starling 00:41 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

OK, I nvr wanted you to "waste" your time .... I hope u get your stuff done. It's nice that you disparage things and then don't [or can't] answer some questions. I was merely inquisitive on the topics .... but noone has answered my questions. Hmmm ... mabey no answer will come forth from anyone. I just wanna know the parameters to be included or excluded here ... BTW, what do you think plasma physics groups extend into [if you take the next logical steps in theory]? And Magnetohydrodynamics isn't fringe ... it's accepted theory ... [ps. Astrophysics and cosmology are related .... they are kinda interdependent from what I can tell ... but mabey I'm wrong] ... reddi 01:44 18 Jul 2003 (UTC) "It is not as uncommon ... [some to] accept the reality of phenomena that are not yet understood, as it is very common for physicists to disbelieve the reality of phenomena that seem to contradict contemporary beliefs of physics " - Bauer

"I just wanna know the parameters to be included or excluded here..." I'm not sure exactly, I'm kind of making it up as I go along. It will list "speculative, fringe or otherwise disregarded theories," but the exact interpretation of that phrase is subject to the opinion of the Wikipedian community. As a rule of thumb, anything which denies the validity of:

The Big Bang
The old age of the Earth
Relativity
Quantum mechanics

will almost certainly be listed here. I don't mean to list theories which attempt to correct the flaws with QM and GR which are well-known to the mainstream physics community, for example superstring theory. I mean theories which reject the experimental results in favour of the mainstream theories as being spurious.

As for MHD -- I know it's not a fringe theory. You listed that one, remember? I listed rotating magnetic field because there seems to be some sort of mythology attached to it, in the form of the "rotating magnetic field model". Rotating magnetic fields are not speculative, but I suspect this "model" is. I don't know the full story yet, but the way it is listed at the moment is quite appropriate.

This page may seem to you to be rejecting or talking down the theories listed. I didn't mean to imply that these theories are incorrect. Like you say, physicists "disbelieve the reality of phenomena that seem to contradict contemporary beliefs of physics". Consider this page to be a catalogue of realities which are disbelieved by mainstream scientists. To say a theory is "fringe" is not a judgement on its accuracy, it's just a judgement on the attitude of the mainstream scientific community towards it. -- Tim Starling 02:18 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"I'm not sure exactly, I'm kind of making it up as I go along." Hmmm .... mabey you should slap a disclaimer tag of some sort at the top of this page then ... as it's definitely amorphous to what is to be includeed here or not.

Anything which denies the validity of The Big Bang? So that new extrasolar planet in the news the other day is fringe? ... The old age of the Earth? how old is old [the current age theories may really be young to what it really is ... mabey not]? ... Relativity? World views don't need to relativity ... you can rely on a different basis and be ok [see Godel [sp?] and the incompleteness theorum ... thankfully there is duality] ... Quantum mechanics? QM is just one set of theories ... there are others .... but mabey some of QM could be listed here too ....

"I mean theories which reject the experimental results in favour of the mainstream theories as being spurious" ... how does Plasma cosmology do that? Matter o' fact, plasma cosmology takes account of experimental data and phenomena of reality that is not accounted for in the mainstream .... how does 'Quaternion physics do that? ... I don't know alot about it ... and there isn't a listing on it .... so mabey you could list a note on them ... and, how does Luminiferous aether do that? Aether is an alternative theory ... discounted by some ... accounted by others [even michealson and morley still accepted it after thier so much touted experiment] .... PLEASE make a note to the side of each of these entries ... mabey explaining them abit and a lil on why they are listed ... information is always good, especially on subjective material.

As for MHD ... Yea I listed that one ... to POINT OUT that it's not a fringe .... there isn't "some sort of mythology" attached to it, I believe that may be your POV .... a "model" just a thought construct; ie., a way to think of things .... the way it is listed here at the moment is questionable IMO, as it conveys to me [and probably to others that see the page] that any of these listed views are in error of being correct .... [BTW, I recently discoveed the article Dynamo theory article ... it's the same thing ... so I thinkin of consolidating it with that one when i get time ... the RMF model is the DT]

"This page may seem to you to be rejecting or talking down the theories listed." Yes ... on 1st impression, it did ... and probably does to alot of readers that see it .... that's probably reason enough to put a disclaimer of some sort here [like a "dispute" tag] .... "To say a theory is 'fringe' is a judgement on the attitude of the mainstream scientific community towards it"? That is highly subjective ... who's the spokesman for the mainstream? ... this article needs a dispute tag, it'd help it IMO ....

... the more i read of this article ... it's just a POV article it try to reaffirm a POV and discount other NPOV information ... reddi 22:01 18 Jul 2003 (UTC) more later ...

How does plasma cosomology deny one of the listed theories? If you read a little closer, you would have noticed that I anticipated this attack. I said that theories which deny one of the mainstream theories will be listed, I didn't say anything about theories which don't deny the mainstream theories. Not in that sentence, anyway.

"That is highly subjective ... who's the spokesman for the mainstream?" It's not subjective, because if worst comes to worst, we can take a poll. But luckily, we have a decent number of mainstream physicists and other scientists on Wikipedia, and those people have a fairly good idea of the attitude of their peers towards these theories. I'm relying on the input of experts.

Assessing the opinion of the mainstream community is an important part of NPOV policy.

"there isn't 'some sort of mythology' attached to it, I believe that may be your POV". It's my intuition, nothing more. I've said I don't understand the "rotating magnetic field model", so I can't be sure what's going on. I'm hoping you'll just tell me, but otherwise I'll probably work it out eventually. But if you must know, my suspicions were twigged by statements like:

"Plasma cosmology states that dynamically coupled rotating magnetic fields produced the universe observed today."
[An analogy for the way the aether transmits influences is] one vortex ring (related to the rotating magnetic field)
In Strasbourg, Tesla built the induction motor which was experimental proof of the rotating magnetic field model.

The last one is particularly interesting. The main thing I'm missing is: what is the model? Rotating magnetic fields are a phenomenon, not a model. You don't prove a phenomenon, so what is there to this "model" besides the simple existence of rotating magnetic fields? -- Tim Starling 08:57 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

--

"I anticipated this" ... yep ... as I stated before, an article to futher a POV.

"I didn't say anything about theories which don't deny the mainstream theories. Not in that sentence, anyway." [see above]

... [BTW, it's not an attack, sorry u feel under fire .... just a series o' statements to flesh out the reasons for this article (which i really don't have a huge problem with ... just want a clarification and reasoning, other than just willey-nilly listing of topics here] ...

"deny one of the mainstream" ... hmmm but you nvr said, should that recent observation of the extrasolar planet be listed here? If correct, it's gonna deny models of cosmology ....

.... this is subjective article (as it exists now ... mabey some detail to the listed items and a bit more information on the reasons to be listed may help it become less of that) and polls are subjective [unless properly controlled ... I thought you'd know that from statisics, though].

[Clip "my consensus" is always right, no other possiblities can be right]

[Clip "my experts" are always right]

Assessing the opinion of the mainstream community is an important part of NPOV policy? hmmm .... POV is a position from where something recorded with a perspective. It's not neutral here in this article ... "It's my intuition, nothing more." ok ... thank for saying it's your POV [but not explicitly] .... mainly biased from your perspective .... I thought the whole point of NPOV is to provide information without give a hint of bais to that information [which this artcle does ... as i stated before, it gave me [and probably alot more readers that view the article] a feeling that these listed items are frameworks that are in error of something ...] ... mabey providing a bias to information is ok? mabey not .... [see NPOV]

[snip RMF model twiggin' someone]

"Plasma cosmology states that dynamically coupled rotating magnetic fields produced the universe observed today" What is hard about that? Is the english a bit advanced? hmmm ... I thought it was pretty plain language ... I don't think you can get any simpler (in the concise form) ...

[snip aether] appearantly you haven't read anything on Kelvin or his original papers ... he tried to work out the aether ... and he developed the "energy vortex" models [or theories, see below] ... [among other thing ... and helped form an early atomic models] ... this vortex theory eventually was taken by Tesla to the next level [into the RMF model].

[snip "experimental proof"]

"what is the model?" a model is a construct to think of things ... the RFM model is just a way to think of how the electromagnetic forces act throughout reality .... [go look up the synonyms of the word ... it's equilivant to: framework, pattern, theoretical account (or theory)] ... (BTW appearantly you skipped over the Dynamo theory part in my last response (which i was unaware of @ the time i created the RMF article, so i'm merging it with that as soon as I can [mabey after i post this])) ...

... "Rotating magnetic fields are a phenomenon, not a model" ... but it is a model to put observe things (ala, phenomenon) into a process to understand it [see above synonyms] ... say: "Dynamo Theory" or "Rotating Magnetic Field model", and you mean the same thing ....

[snip rest] ... more later .... reddi 15:29 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It's alright, I think I've worked it out now. -- Tim Starling 04:54 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Just want to say that I agree that Plasma cosmology should not be included among this list. It has been around since the late 1800's and has much experimental backing. It is only fringe because it is not the mainstream paradigm. But you two have already gone through all this so I don't need to add any more here. -- Ionized

It's only fringe because it's not the mainstream paradigm? That's what fringe means! Look, if you disagree with my terminology, maybe we can move this page to Theories which are not part of the mainstream paradigm because your description of plasma cosmology fits perfectly with the kind of theories I wanted to organise. I didn't call the page Theories which were invented recently and have no experimental backing did I? -- Tim Starling 04:13, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)

My word... -- Tim Starling 08:03, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)

Ok, ok. I am in no way trying to further any anger driven disputes, so please accept my apologies for intrusion. It's not that I disagree with terminology, it's that the theoretically based Big Bang is more speculative in nature than the empirically based plasma cosmology, and should be included in the list before it by that standard. I'll just state it this way, for people like me who have spent time researching plasma physics and cosmological theories in general, including their historical development, it is simply disheartening to continuously be looked upon as a quack by most. And your inclusion of plasma cosmology in the list doesnt help that any :)

I discovered Wikipedia yesterday, found the Plasma cosmology article, and right away began to correct it according to what I have studied. Ive been looking through the page history at what Reddi's first version was, and watched its development as people like Roadrunner came in with 'peer review' and transformed the article from one about plasma cosmology, to one that pushes it aside only to further expound the Big Bang. Such behavior is absurd and I hope that it is discontinued.

I plan to fully update the article over the next few months, expounding more on the actual methods and findings of plasma cosmology in general (as opposed to the current version, which until yesterday focused on Alfven's outdated model, which it seems was used only to attempt further discrediting of the plasma paradigm as a whole.) I thank Reddi for having started the article and hope that approves of my continuing contributions.

I do not expect you to change your list of speculative theories to match my preference. The list isnt that bad after all, as you havent put in things that are obviously complete quackery (such as ufo stuff or the like.) I do appreciate your note at the top about how the article may not be neutral. -- Ionized Tue, August 12th 10:15 am

Just in case you missed my meaning, my gasp above was in reference to Reddi's amusing POV rant on science being "unimaginitive and conforming" [1]. Such behaviour is unacceptable. Ionized, you might be interested in reading our NPOV policy, to see all the rules Reddi just breached. I believe scientists are the most open-minded sector of the community, but you don't see me spraying that opinion across the article namespace, do you? It's not on. Save it for your weblog, Reddi.

Ionized, welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you decide to write about plasma cosmology from a neutral point of view, as our policy demands, rather than producing more of the poorly-written advocacy that Reddi has become known for. -- Tim Starling 00:18, Aug 13, 2003 (UTC)

I have begun to read NPOV policy, and will try my best to conform to this standard. I have read over the page on the Big Bang and noticed that it indeed included reference to alternate theory, along with criticism. However a majority of the page is devoted to developing an understanding of the Big Bang theory itself. Over time, I hope to see the Plasma cosmology page follow suit here, which it is beginning to do. I doubt I will be the one that includes the BB POV in the article, as my focus most definitely is the PC POV. However, I am very willing to work with proponents of the BB to bring about a more neutral article on Plasma cosmology, as I believe I have already begun to do (the page seemed very biased towards the BB POV when I first encountered it.) Thanks for your consideration and your welcoming. -- Ionized Tue, August 12th 10:00 pm

Thank you to all those responsible for re-wording the article. It is now much more acceptable, especially the comment that some currently accepted practices would have in the past been on this type of list. -- Ionized Tue, August 12th 6:06 pm

I think Gene's ideas are theories in the looser sense, even if not in a strictly scientific sense. Don't know if this is relevant... Martin 23:39, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't know myself, but would prefer to make clear that these ideas are indeed far from accepted knowledge or even serious theory - it would take our readers one look at the Time Cube website to discover that, but why not mention it here. Kosebamse 12:20, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Moved from article:

Other

Modern medical techniques and procedures that have not been validated by evidence-based medicine

This is far too vague to be in that list. Details please, or leave out. Kosebamse 11:41, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What about Marxism, Lysenkoism, Lamarckism, Phlogiston, Calorific, Humors? -- -- Error 01:34, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Title

This page has evolved considerably from its beginnings when it related to a short list of modern eccentric ideas. With the move of the list from the pseudoscience article it has come to include a lot of practices with a long and honorable tradition which the mainstream of modern sciences does not find acceptable. I have therefor moved it to a more NPOV title which excludes the pejorative term, "fringe". ☮ Eclecticology 10:30, 2004 Feb 3 (UTC)

It hasn't evolved, it's just a whole stack of content moved in from Pseudoscience. This was intended as a list complementary to the one at pseudoscience -- in particular as a list of theories purporting to be scientific. I see two problems with the current name (List of alternative, speculative and disputed sciences):

The theories given aren't an alternative to science
All scientific theories are disputed

My initial test for inclusion was the level of acceptance enjoyed from the mainstream community. By importing a large number of entries with a wide following, Reddi indeed made the article into something other than that given in the original title (List of speculative or fringe theories).

I suggest doing the following:

Move the pseudoscience back to pseudoscience from where it came, or alternatively to List of pseudoscientific theories
Create another article with an unambiguous title such as "list of speculative or fringe scientific theories", and move the appropriate entries there.

-- Tim Starling 12:49, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)

---

Hmm ... Tim, your initial intent was to list "speculative, fringe, crackpot or otherwise disregarded theories" in science (another, not so NPOV, way to say "alternative, speculative, and disputed sciences") contary to what you stated (check the 1st edit) ...

As to being "complementary " to pseudoscience list, the theories given are cited as an alternative to science (by thier advocates) ... I included what was intended (AFAIK) ...

... I's suggest keeping it all here (easier to check the wlnk'ed articles) ... now, mabey the article could be divided by header into "pseudoscientific", "speculative or fringe", and/or "disputed sciences" .... but it more comprehensive as it is ...

Sincerely, JDR 13:20, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I can accept the change in the title from "sciences" to "theories". I pondered that possibility myself and decided that "science" in some usages was a much broader term. It was "fringe" in the old title that I found unacceptable. I was, in fact, glad to see the list moved from pseudoscience because that term is a characterization which was never subjected to any kind of strict criteria. I argued for the splitting off more than a year ago. The proponents of some of these practices had never even made a claim that they were sciences in the first place. The inclusion of some seemed to have been on a whim that could be disputed by those who are more familiar with the field. These whims varied considerably from one persan to another. I have always maintained that "not proven to be scientific" is a very different concept from "proven to be not scientific", and that "pseudosciece" should refer only to the latter.

The present title allows for things to be included without any implication of ultimate judgement about their validity. I don't think that dividing this list into categories would help our cause. That would open up a whole new series of disputes about where somthing belongs. Alphabetical order is about as neutral as we can hope for. Some tightening up could happen, such as including all practices ending in "-mancy" under fortune telling. ☮ Eclecticology 18:21, 2004 Feb 3 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to explain the move from "sciences" to "theories", but time caught up with me. Like you say, many of the theories listed have never made the claim to be scientific -- they are instead tied to spiritualistic or new age beliefs. I have to admit it seems somewhat odd to see hidden variable theory in the same list as numerology, but I'm not quite sure what to do about it. -- Tim Starling 23:15, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)

I've removed

Pyramidiocy theories about the origin, nature, or purpose of the Egyptian pyramids.

The problem with this is that it has no believers. The term is a pejorative that was invented by opponents as a catch-all for what could be a wide range of practices. A minimum condition for incllusion on the list should be that there is somebody who does or has believed in it. Individual practices contemplated by this term should have their own entries. ☮ Eclecticology 00:15, 2004 Feb 15 (UTC)

Marxism

The characterization of Marxism-Leninism as a Pseudoscience is based on the self-characterization of Marxism-Leninism as a science: for example, "The open abandonment by the Soviet revisionists of the scientific Marxist-Leninist concept of socialism comes out clearly, also, when they proclaim the development of the productive forces as the only decisive factor of its construction." and "The frontal attack of Soviet revisionism on the fundamental questions of Marxism-Leninism could not leave the theory and practice of scientific socialism untouched." [2] Fred Bauder 05:57, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be plain Marxism. It was preached as Scientific Socialism as opposed to Utopian Socialism (Anarchism). I think that the terms are from Marx himself. --Error 00:09, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Marxism itself should not be listed here for a number of reasons. Marxism incorporates a wide range of theories in economics, politics, history, and philosophy. Marx's theory of dialectical materialism is simply the imperative to look at historical events in the context of social class and availability of resources; this can hardly be said to be discredited. Despite a number of competing theories, Marx's understanding of the cause of inflation has not, to my knowledge, been falsified. Finally, there has not yet been a society operating on purely Marxian principles, since Marx envisaged a system free of government. All existing so-called "communist" governments have been Marxist-Leninist (or some variant thereof), which are actually (by Lenin's own admission numerous times in his writings) simply a form of state capitalism. Their recent collapse is evidence that Lenin's state capitalism is not the correct road to a Marxian society, not that a Marxian society itself is impossible. —Psychonaut 10:11, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Fred's source is of course based on the Enver Hoxha school of communism. This gentleman's efforts to create Utopia on Earth were somewhat removed from the mainstream. No doubt, Hoxha sought to interpret Marx in what he believed to be a scientific way, and one might even say that he became more communist than the communists. If the term "science" were to apply at all, I agree it should be limited to Marx. The connection between Marx and Lenin could be seen in the analogy of the relationship between the theoretician and the engineer. The former is more interested in why a structure will stand; the latter has the more practical question, "Will it stand?" Lenin did not have much patience for theoretical wrangling.

For the scientific hard core one would do just as well to put economics instead of the more specific Marxism-Leninism. This group sees nothing scientific about anything in the social "sciences". To be completely fair one must remember that Marx lived in the 19th century. He would have used the term "scientific" in a much less rigid way than has since become the case. Popper's falsificationism did not yet exist. Any attempt to consider the matter in a methodical fashion would then have been considered scientific. Our judgement must be based on 19th century science.

If we now consider Marx's theories as failed, then we do so with the benefit of hindsight. Given that the subject involves the development of entire societies, any experiment or hypothesis testing will take several generations to complete. If we consider Marx as having proposed the hypothesis, we perhaps can also view Lenin as the person who designed the experiment to test that hypothesis. If further, the collapse of the Soviet Union can represent the failure of the experiment, it is perfectly on track with being scientific. It is perfectly scientific to recognize that an experiment has failed. Experimental failure is not the characteristic which defines pseudoscience. ☮ Eclecticology 20:11, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC)

Accupuncture is not pseudoscience. If you look at the article on accupuncture, it is quite clear. The traditional theory behind accupuncture would probably fit the definition of pseudoscience, but I'm sure there is a scientific theory that would at least put it in the realm of protoscience. You probably have to divide a lot of the the topics here in half. Ezra Wax 17:05, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Better now? -- Tim Starling 23:52, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

Please see the moved VfD discussion at Talk:List of alternative, speculative and disputed theories/Delete which includes suggestions to retitle this page.

Categorization?

Maybe it would help this page if theories were not listed alphabetically but were grouped by areas of knowledge to which they (purport to) belong. Also, the (necessarily brief) description of each theory should attempt to indicate what the theory is alternative to, why it is considered to be speculative, and why is it disputed.

Anyway, this page is a can or worms. Psychoanalysis is not listed despite the fact that a substantial number of critics say it is pseudoscientific and nonfalsifiable. String theory is speculative since it has made no contact with experiment. Evolution is disputed.

Miguel 17:19, 2004 Mar 20 (UTC)

String theory is speculative, yes, but it is seen as that among the scientific community. It does't have a group of true believers who dismiss all other competing theories as nonsense. Hence it is no pseudoscience. I do think that psychoanalysis should be listed in the article. Evolution is no pseudoscience because it is seen as plausible by the scientific community and it has even been observed in nature. But it is true that evolution is difficult to falsify. Andries 11:43, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oh, yes, there are a lot of true believers that start all their scientific talks with "As we know, String theory is the theory of everything". And Edward Witten has been known to dismiss competing theories as nonsense.

Anyway, the point is that the article is not called "pseudoscience" but "alternative, speculative and disputed theories". Miguel 15:42, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)

Miguel, you are right. I didn't read it well. This list is a can of worms and should renamed. Many theories are disputed and somewhat speculative but remain within the scope of science until the weight of evidence against them gets too big. Andries 15:50, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have carried out a (necessarily imperfect) preliminary classification. This has forced me to read the entries carefully, and a substantial number of the descriptions is highly non-NPOV and utterly uninformative. The introduction to the page is also atrocious, by the way. Miguel 20:22, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)

It'll get there :-) This list is useful, though it needs a name tolerable to all.

In list articles, the "see also" is often after the intro and before the list - I think this list's "see also" should be there too. - David Gerard 20:36, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

Some of the things listed here are not properly theories either. It can be argued that evolution is more a paradigm than a theory, for instance, and Darwinism is not the only evolutionary theory of biology and is more properly described by natural selection. I have beefs with the description of Hidden Variable "theories", too. This is just the beginning, of course.

It would be great if we could write a new introduction from scratch. Miguel 20:55, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)

HIV

Many of these theories are considered pathological science: a psychological process in which believers in a theory, who may have originally conformed to the scientific method, unconsciously veer from that method and begin a pathological process of wishful data interpretation.

My god! This sounds like a perfect description of HIV research! Can I list it? (j/k) On a more serious note, I do kind of object to the gross lumping-together of disputed scientific claims or theories which for the most part conform to the scientific method, seek approval in mainstream journals, use standard techniques, etc., and those claims or theories which make no attempt at all to justify themselves by scientific methods, or their attempts are disingenuous or fake. For example, you may believe Peter Duesberg is wrong, and you may have good reasons to think so, but it's very difficult to deny that he is attempting to persuade people that his claims are scientifically sound via standard scientific channels (standard research methods, publication in respected journals, etc.). This is a far cry from "creation science" which for the most part makes a disingenuous attempt to be scientific, but not really intending to follow scientific processes or verification methods at all. Or, even worse, astrology and fortune telling, which are practically scams or wastes of time at best, whose "practitioners" must be well aware they are deceiving people. Listing all of these in the same article with theories that are scientific but simply highly disputed or contested is misleading, to say the least.

Hence my adding words about plate tectonics and the notion of meteorites to the beginning of the intro. It's actually a spectrum from "some think they're cranks" to "most definitely cranks." Where would you place a firm class division? - David Gerard 23:05, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

How can be a capitalism a "pseudoscience?" It does not puport to be a science at all, but only a philosophy of economics. It is not even a system per se, as capitalism can evolve in many different vectors, and still be capitalistic, as the make-up of the businesses will vary from culture to culture and year to year in its specificities. As it is not a science, it also does not make the utopian claim of perfectibility, as in Marxism. Few people do indeed feel that capitalism is somehow not acceptable, but history has shown us it is the best economic philosophy currently available to us. Capitalism is not a fringe philosophy. The small numbers of people who are anti-capitalist, on the other hand, are.

MSTCrow 02:38, May 24, 2004 (UTC)

As have had no replies, it would appear that people are in agreement that "capitalism" is not correctly placed in the "List of alternative, speculative and disputed theories." Therefore, I will remove it. If anyone disagrees with this action, please first discuss your arguments against it in Talk.

MSTCrow 05:22, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Aren't all theories, by definition, speculative?

MSTCrow 03:20, May 31, 2004 (UTC)

I have restored "Bell Curve" as it fits the definition. Profoundly questionable science, supported by some, disputed by many more. Cold fusion had data too. (BTW, your removal edit certainly wasn't discussed on the talk page ...) - David Gerard 23:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence to offer that the science is not valid? We cannot let the list become a victim of any PC censorship of science. Cold fusion had data, but it wasn't reproducible, or well documented. Scientists in the field, by a majority, agree with it. It is only when you reach the layperson, who has preconcieved notions of what ought to be that we have problems.

MSTCrow 23:21, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

I am not interested really in putting the Bell Curve back, but to dismiss the criticism of the book as PC is nonsense. Statistics are easily abused to fit peoples' agenda. The core theory of the book, that the differences in IQ between black and white Americans is genetically determined is very speculative. It conflicts with well established genetic evidence that the concept of white and black 'races' has no scientific validity. African-Americans are as much a race as the Irish-Americans or Hispanics. It is overwhelming likely that the IQ differences are caused by cultural factors. This is why the Bell Curve is disputed.

--Frank.visser 23:42, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It is certainly not the "core theory" of the "Bell Curve," that "the differences in IQ between black and white Americans is genetically determined." This subject is covered in 46 out of 846 pages in chapter 13, and is irrelevant to the real "core theory."

Which is that, in the 20th century, the United States became much more socially and economically stratified by cognitive ability. That the smartest people have increasingly risen to the top. less hindered by class, race and gender distinctions. That there are some undesirable consequences to this societal change, to this creation of a cognitive elite. That people not cognitively favored have an increasingly difficult time dealing with life in the land of the smart rulers.

I considered this to be an important and most novel insight.

Bob Unferth

DDT

I would like to suggest that the "dangers" of DDT be included in the list. The entry for DDT itself makes mention of this, and Rachel Caron has never been recognized as a legitimate voice in the scientific community. This article, [3], by Roger Bate, makes note of this, and also of the millions of lives lost who would have otherwise been saved had DDT been available to protect against malaria spreading mosquitoes. He is by no means the first person to point this out either, and many health and evironmental organizations believe that the risk from DDT to animal life is minimal. As the premise for banning DTT is in itself questionable, and the millions of lives lost on a yearly basis in underdeveloped regions such as Africa due to the ban, I believe that this is a topic which warrants inclusion in the list.

MSTCrow 23:21, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

The dangers of DDT have not been discredited. DDT does cause environmental damage. Now, it may be that the antimalarial benefits of DDT outweigh the environmental risks, even significantly so, but I don't think the idea that DDT is an environmental hazzard is outside the realms of mainstream science.

Philosophy: Ojectivism removed

I have removed Ayn Rand's objectivism because that is is a school of philosophy and all schools of philosophies are disputed. I mean, then we could as well include all other schools of philosophy and all religious movements. Kind regards. Andries 21:18, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Evolution not alternative, speculative or disputed

I do not believe that evolution shoud be on the list. It is absolutely not an alternative, speculative or disputed theory. The groups who dispute evolutionary theory are on the same level as people who dispute relativity theory or quantum mechanics. I will start to figure out how to remove the Evolution entry from the list

I just checked, and I found that a few days ago somebody replaced creationism with evolution. The same IP put in objectivism (later removed). I put creationism back in, but is there a way to stop this person from doing it again? --Frank.visser 23:12, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nope. Just keep an eye on the page. If they persist, ask them to justify themselves. Etc. - David Gerard 23:37, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since when is it not speculative nor disputed? Why do you think there is constant friction about evolution being indoctrinated in public schools?

When I went to college, the biology text used in class was written by George Gaylord Simpson in which he clearly, with several examples, indicated that the difference between a scientific theory and one that is not scientific is that the scientific theory was based on observation, where the observation is repeatable. Did Dr. Simpson know the definition of science? Has the definition for science changed since then?

Then look at Dr. Simpson's description of evolution: it is based on inobservable presuppositions. All the "evidences" for evolution, such as the interpretations of fossiles, radiomedric dating and so forth, are equally based on inobservable presuppositions. If observation is the test for science verses non-science, as above, how is evolution scientific? Or do you claim that Dr. Simpson didn't understand what science is?

Or to use Popper's concept of falsifyability: what would it take to falsify evolution? Historical artifacts? Records? What sort of observations would falsify evolution when it is not based on observation?

This is not a defense of creationism, as it is equally based on inobservable presuppositions.

Therefore, both theories are equally not scinece, according to Dr. Simpson's definition above.

Therefore, it is POV to include one theory as disputed and the other not.

Melamed 04:52, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid you cannot attack the sacred cows. Fallibilism is disliked because it categorises many well loved-theories as questionable science; it imposes an extremely strict criterion. Hence we revert back to the days before the dawn of empirical science, and rely entirely on the word of academic authorities. However, if two theories fail because neither is in principle falsifiable, it is reasonable to select the one that has the greater amount of corroborative evidence, if we must make a choice between them.Gordon Vigurs 12:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

CBS News carried an article at: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml showing that the claim that evolution is not controversial is a very parochial view. In fact as this article shows, it is only a small minority who are true believers in evolution. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of whom are in government employ and the majority of those in government schools. Therefore, not to include it as a disputed theory is POV as it is a viewpoint taught by a small minority.

According to the poll numbers, it is the naturalistic evolutionists who are the smallest minority, followed by the theistic evolutionists, with an absolute majority who are creationists. Censorship and discrimination as practiced now may prevent creationists from getting degrees, or if perchance they succeed in obtaining an advanced degree in science, not getting an education position nor publication of their articles, but such efforts are perceived by the majority that evolution does not have a scientific or intellectual basis that can survive an open debate. Hence it is percieved as a speculative and disputed theory.

Melamed 23 Nov 2004

US-centered bias anyone? — Miguel 07:59, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 12:39, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)) My understanding was that the phrase "alternative, speculative or disputed" referred to the status of theories with respect to science and/or their appropriate professional community. Not wrt the general public.

I think George Gaylord Simpson says it all. Bobby1011 19:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I hope there is some speculative element left in evolution, otherwise we should sack all the biologists as redundant! It is absurd to claim that observations not yet made cannot in any way refine it. Gordon Vigurs 14:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

What merits the inclusion of brainwashing in this list?

"Brainwashing theory says that a person can have his belief system and basic values changed involuntarily by the use of social pressure e.g. in cults"

Was the author of this implying that cults do not change people's belief systems or basic values? It contradicts with observations, even superficial ones.

It's not a theory but a set of methods that can be used to change human being's belief system and basic values. The mechanisms used in the process are not unique to brainwashing, but normal, and can be researched under a number of psychological models. Basically, it's abuse of the same mechanisms that govern the learning and adjustment of a child, in an adult person. Cults are not unique in using them.

That is called social influence, or conditioning , not brainwashing. Have you read and studies the article on brainwashing? I will re-insert the brainwashing theory. Andries 18:23, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Melamed's edits

Melamed, please stop unilaterally adding evolution to the list. Clearly there's been some controversy over its inclusion, so it would be better to try to make your case here and gain the support of other editors of this page before making your changes. For the record, I do not believe that evolution is not a science. It may seem difficult to falsify, though there are a variety of methods which have gained wide acceptance in the biological community. I suggest you read through the talk.origins FAQs if you have not already done so; if you have a novel argument which has not yet been addressed there or here, then perhaps you can defend it here and we will be swayed. Psychonaut 21:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Melamed hi. Please read carefully the beginning of the page. It states that inclusion in this page has to do first and foremost with being accepted academically. Evolution is universally accepted inside the academia. Ask any biologist. Opposition to evolution comes from outside the academy. This is not about how to define science. Just a poll. Gady 20:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

First of all, the beginning of the page doesn't even have the word "accademically" in it, nor any referrence thereto. However, it does state Many of these theories are considered pathological science: a psychological process in which believers in a theory, who may have originally conformed to the scientific method, unconsciously veer from that method and begin a pathological process of wishful data interpretation. which is an almost perfect description of evolution except that evolution never conformed to the scientific method.

Melamed 05:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

By the way, if you add acedemically to the top of the article, that is almost a shouted admission that the following article is full of NPOV violations. It is widely recognized that acedemia as a whole is anything but NPOV.

Actually, it may be better for you to start out with the claim that this article makes no pretence of NPOV. 1) it is intellectually more honest, than to pretend NPOV while writing POV 2) People like myself will be less inclined to edit the page, as it will be an honest POV entry

Melamed 05:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Melamed hi. First of all, welcome to the talk, that would be much more productive than constantly reverting and being reverted within minutes. Second, I think you read Wikipedia's neutraility policy very carefully. Your use of the term NPOV is obviously colloquial, while on Wikipedia it has a precise definition quite different from how you use it.

Now to your actual point. No, the introduction to the page does not state explicitly that we are talking about science as defined by scientists in the academia, and "majority" and "minority" are understood in this context. If you think this is not clear enough, you may suggest an alternative formulation for the introduction. Gady 11:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Gady: True, I just skimmed the definition of NPOV vs. POV, but in skimming it I noticed nothing with which I would disagree. But nowhere did I notice that Wikipedia articles should be limited to academia's standards. It is not without reason that academia is often called the "ivory tower", not only because academics are often out of touch with the rest of the world, but also because they are usually surrounded by people of like mind, that they often do not recognize their own biases, illogic and limitations. If I had noticed that Wikipedia limits its definition of NPOV to how academia defines it, I would have treated Wikipedia articles the same as I treat other academic sources: sometimes useful, but use with caution because of POV.

I'll remind you of the academic a few years ago, who deliberately wrote a piece that was nonsense to illustrate the absurdity of the peer review process. Because he is such a big name in his field (sorry, I don't remember his name right now) the article got published. He finally had to come out publicly announce what he had done.

Incidently, I noticed that none of you responded to my mention above why evolution is a disputed and speculative theory. While I mentioned Dr. Simpson, others have published the same ideas so this concept is not original with me. I see three options from the above, either 1) Dr. Simpson was a fool who didn't know what he was talking about when he described what is science (hard to back up, as I checked several textbooks and none gave a contradictory description), 2) the definition of science has changed since I checked, making any claim that a particular theory is or is not scientific a time based, subjective assertion and not an objective standard; if this view is adopted, then there can be no pathological science as there is no objective standard as to what is good science, or 3) evolution is not, never has been and never can be, a scientific theory. Sadly, to me at least, under the politically correct pressure to declare evolution a scientific theory, it looks as if option #2 is being pursued.

Finally, upon sleeping on the question, there is a way legitimately to write a POV article in a NPOV manner, and that is to include a disclaimer at the very beginning that the article is a report on how a particular group perceives the issues. Then the inclusion or exclusion of any particular statement will not be considered POV on the part of Wikipedia, rather POV on the part of portrayed group. I have added such a disclaimer.

Melamed 17:05, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is perhaps not directly related to the debate at hand, but with regards to your academic who illustrated "the absurdity of the peer review process": You are undoubtedly referring to the Sokal affair, in which physicist Alan Sokal submitted a paper to the cultural studies journal Social Text. The paper was intended to highlight the abuse of the language and concepts of science by post-modernist scholars. It was not accepted on the basis of Dr. Sokal's physics reputation; indeed, in their reply to his exposure of the hoax the editors of Social Text said that they did "not [know] the author or his work". It has nothing to do with peer review, and hence is in no way a defense for any of your claims here. Carmelbuck 20:42, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I noticed that William M. Connolley made a change, with the claim "in academia" was there already. but a check of previous versions shows that that is a lie. What does he take us for, . . . fools?

Melamed 17:48, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 19:01, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)) Its on the current text of the page, about line 2, oh self-described fool. I await your apology.

William was right. It was a pique. Please use a respectable formulation. Gady 20:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

To be fair, guys, the phrase "in academia" was added by Melamed at the same time that he added his introductory statements; William apparently chopped out the top stuff rather than revert to the previous version. However, I think it can be debated whether that phrase belongs there as well...is academic acceptance really an appropriate criterion for this page? Read the phrase "beginning from theories considered crackpot by all but their handful of followers and ending in respectable theories that are simply the minority view"; this perfectly well incorporates the entries on the page without an additional "academic belief" classification---and, I might add, does not include the biological theory of evolution. Carmelbuck 20:42, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I see no harm in the "academia" addition. Gady 20:56, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 21:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)) Oops, so I did.

Removed Text + suggestions

I removed the following text:

===[[Welbesology]]=== Is the study of rumored or mythological teachers that are presumed by many to exist, but for which proof does not yet exist. In mythology, they would teach Anthropology, Social Sciences or Theories of Knowledge. Illustrates the fact that truth is never certain, since misinformation is common.

This was contributed by a certain mr. 4 numbers and this is his only contribution. Partly copied from the cryptozoology description. Google gives nothing.

Also, I have some additional suggestions for removal:

SETI. This is not a theory but a project.
Psychoanalysis. At least until we have a page in Wikipedia that explains why this is fringe. Or AT LEAST some references that it is debunked beyond the usual debunking of any theory in psychology. Ditto for hypnosis and polygraph.
Marxism-Lenninism. This is famed first and foremost as a policy, not as a science. Also it feels strongly out of place here, more like someone's opinion.

There was no reply so I'm doing it. Gadykozma 13:34, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gadykozma, I belatedly oppose to your removal of psychoanalysis. It has been debunked and some aspects are non-falsifiable i.e. non-scientific. Andries 17:07, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Better late than never. Can you give some references to this? I kind of know this theory is currently not at its highest in popularity, but that's a far cry from actually being fringe. Gadykozma 19:33, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC) Andries, sorry for removing brainwashing without discussion, it got carried away by the inertia of the removal of the other psychology stuff. If you want, lets discuss it now. Gadykozma 18:29, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gadykozma, Brainwashing article does not need to be discussed here because the article on brainwashing explains that and why it has been discredited with references. Andries 18:53, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article itself points out that the state of the science is hotly disputed and that there is not a consensus meaning of the term with some forms of very significant coersive and manipulative persausion existing (e.g. propoganda), and other more fantastical definitions of the term lacking scientific validity.

Biophotons

I've added the Biophotons to the list. It seems to a mostly German contribution to this corpus, but I've just checked the articles made it to the english Wikipedia and some little edit struggles are seen. The finer points of classifying as proto- or pseudoscience I've left open so far. One point of possible confusion: Biophotonics exist and is rather legitimate but boring and sometimes hyped to get the funding. It has no connections per se with Biophotons, but the Biophotonists are sometimes trying to take over the term and the article. Pjacobi 08:38, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Evolution

Dear User:66.81.121.107, the theory of evolution is a mainstream scientific theory, which has been the subject of widespread testing, including the observation of predicted, but not previously observed, species in the fossil record, DNA evidence, and the direct observation of evolution in the environment and the laboratory. Calling other people "Ignoramii and illogics" is unlikely to advance the acceptance of your arguments here: we have a policy that contributors are expected to be polite to one another, and refrain from personal attacks. You might also want to note the Wikipedia:three revert rule. -- The Anome 03:03, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Previous views of these theories

Have re-inserted this, which was briefly in the article.

Equally, a number of these concepts have in the past been regarded as mainstream theories (like luminiferous aether) or as strong hypotheses deserving of further study (like polywater. In all of these cases experimental study has demonstrated the strength or weakness of the hypothesis.

I agree that aether was never experimentally proven, but I understand that many scientists agreed it was a strong if untested hypothesis before experimental proof became available. If anyone can demonstrate otherwise I'll stop objecting and use something else (e.g. creationism) as the example of a previously mainstream thought now regarded as nonsense. The Land 19:03, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 21:15, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)) With the new wording, I guess its OK, ish. Mainstream is more accurate than sound.

Does Catastrophism really deserve to be listed as a Pseudo-science since it is potentially verifiable/falsifiable.

It isn't listed as a pseudoscience, it is listed as "alternative, speculative, and disputed." --Fastfission 02:36, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mainstream theories added by 172.130.213.107

I have removed most of the additions made by 172.130.213.107 as shown in this diff. There were a few problems. The user changed the introduction to note that theories without experimental evidence were listed. S/he then listed philosophical topics such as interpretation of quantum mechanics, that are perfectly valid fields of inquiry depsite having no experimental grounding. S/he then went on to express a common misconception by adding force carrier. I know, some people like to deny the existence of quarks or electrons or the far side of the moon because we can't "see" them. But force carriers are part of quantum electrodynamics, what some popular science authors call the best-tested physical theory in existence. There is ample evidence.

A few other theories were added on the basis that the experimental evidence supporting them is insufficient. I don't think it's a particularly helpful redefinition of this list to add random elements of mainstream scientific theories just because some arbitrarily high standard of evidence set by the author hasn't been reached. We can certainly distinguish between popular theories and fringe theories in an NPOV way, and I think such a categorisation is useful to our readers. -- Tim Starling 06:32, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

If they are "asserting claims without supporting experimental evidence", they should be listed. - Anon

The interpretation of quantum mechanics is part of quantum mechanics being "disputed theory". Which one is right? Modify the definition, but the overall theory is disputed - Anon

The article clearly states that this list includes claims that are considered fringe or pseudoscientific, regardless of what you decide to interpret the title of the article to mean. --brian0918  18:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See the Item that should be included. They are speculative and disputed.

NPOV dispute

How can "many in the "mainstream" scientific community consider to be "fringe" or pseudoscientific" be allowed in a NPOV article? -Anon

Please review what NPOV is about. Wikipedia must maintain a neutral POV but it can state or list other POVs as long as they are attributed to an individual or group which holds them. --Fastfission 19:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
See my comments on this above. Removing NPOV tag. The Land 13:57, 30 August 2005 (UTC)