Talk:Lupin the 3rd: The Mystery of Mamo

Untitled

DTFRM stands for "Discuss the Freaky Removal". --Ryanasaurus0077 22:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

There was an HK dub? Like Macross DYRL? I heard there was also a messed up Gundam Movie 2 dub.

MPAA ratings

Per Ryanasaurus0077's request, the discussion of why I removed the MPAA ratings. The following ratings have been added to the article:

PG (HK dub),

PG-13 (re-rating) (1995),

16+ (2003 DVD)

Searching at filmratings.com, the MPAA's database, for "lupin", "rupan", or "mystery of mamo" turns up no listings. Also, "16+" not an MPAA rating. Please provide a reliable reference for these ratings. tregoweth 00:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Title of the movie

As calling the film "Lupin vs. The Clone(s)" gives away a rather important plot point in the film, and technically that subtitle was only used in Japanese promotional material (starting the original Japanese movie only offers the title "Rupan Sansei" (Lupin the Third) with no additional captions), it is probably a good idea to limit mention of this title to only a footnote.

Actually, because it's such a big spoiler, it was a big part of the reason Streamline Pictures convinced TMS to permit them to market it as "Lupin III: The Mystery of Mamo." As such, I've decided to relocate the "Clones" part of the title from the sidebar title to the lower area of the page. - R. Nelson

Deceased cast members

I have reverted the changes made by User:Sjones23 on 23:43, 3 June 2007. The stated rationale "all deceased actors and cast members should always have "the late" before their names" is not defined in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style and is not used in Wikipedia articles. See, for example, the The Internet Movie database website that lists movies and casts, or take a look at other Wikipedia articles that contain a cast list. Truthanado 23:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Jigen's shots

"Jigen fires his gun only twice in this film."

I count three times:

1. The airplane tire
2. Mamo
3. Empty can on the ground

But there may be another I cannot recall. So I will not edit until I know for sure.

I'm pretty sure he fires more than twice, myself. LupintheThird (talk) 21:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:L3mdvd3.jpg

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JAL/Toho English Dub Cast??

We have absolutely no source quoted for these voices (Peter Fernandez, Earl Hammond, et al.). Would the original contributor be so kind as to post theirs? Thanks. LupintheThird (talk) 21:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: looks like the cast as listed on the given source (the Anime News Network Encyclopedia) is likely from the Wiki editor who contributed it to begin with: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=56866 I would like to request the removal of the JAL cast listing. - LupintheThird (talk) 09:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Updated Update: Removing cast listing due to unsubstantiated source. - LupintheThird (talk) 09:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yet another update: It appears the cycle has begun anew. Someone has been adding the same incorrect credits to the Anime News Network encyclopedia (where they are difficult to correct), and they are added back here. These credits are completely unverified and do not appear on any prints of the 1970s English dub of this film. The only credits which appear in English on prints of this dub are major staff (Director, Writer, Producer, etc.). Only Japanese-language credits appear at the end. Please stop perpetuating this cycle. Thanks. LupintheThird (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

--Also, I love how the AnimeNewsNetwork Encyclopedia entry cites this very Wikipedia article as its JAL/Toho voice cast source, and this Wiki article has cited the ANN Encyc. as its source on "Mamo" voice casts in the past. Again, let's try to actually stick some legitimate research, proof or maybe even some convincing voice comparisons in the loop and not some random edit-crazy fan's speculation. LupintheThird (talk) 08:29, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

If I may... I'd only heard of very few English dubbing houses from back in the day, and whatever dubbing house Peter Fernandez was affiliated with was the first that came to mind (I guess it all comes from being a fan of Speed Racer more than any other pre-Robotech dubbed anime). Of course, I didn't expect to get it right the first time around. But now that I know more about the old dubbing world (specifically, I found out just recently that there was a Tokyo-based studio called Frontier Enterprises, as the mainspace page mentions), I'll try again even if it takes years upon years upon years to find out who really dubbed the voices. Since I have another anime that was apparently dubbed by Frontier Enterprises, The Dagger of Kamui (a.k.a. Revenge of the Ninja Warrior), on videocassette, I guess I'll start there. I also heard that Lupin's voice actor has a small chance of being the same as that of Perro from the Puss in Boots anime's English dub. I'll come back with my findings as soon as I get any results. As has oft been said: "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again." I didn't succeed at uncovering the Toho dub's voice actors several years ago, but now, armed with the aforementioned new information, I'm confident I'll get better results given enough hard work. --Ryanasaurus007 (talk) 08:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Just remember that anything you claim must be supported by reliable sources (that meet Wikipedia's criteria). This also means it should be published by one, comments from a known industry source but conveyed via email for example may be problematic.　Saying we don't know who they are is better than saying we think it's these people but can't prove it. SephyTheThird (talk) 10:25, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Understood. --Ryanasaurus007 (talk) 11:37, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

This just in, I have just received word that Mamaux's voice in the Toho dub may have been performed by Mike Worman, as evidenced by a voice clip from Arcadia of My Youth (which apparently wasn't properly linked to when brought to my attention). I'll give it a listen as soon as I can access it. Pat, what would be the best comparison point from this film when listening to the voice clip? --Ryanasaurus007 (talk) 15:24, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Here is the clip in question, Ryan and Sephy: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WlVIqGFgIiQ And here's ANN's entry on the film, with the English cast list provided: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=507&lookup=source PatTheMoron (talk) 16:01, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

PS I don't think Puss in Boots' dub will be of any use to us, as it was an American-made dub, which isn't the case with Mamo (ie PNB has Corrinne Orr in the dub). PatTheMoron (talk) 16:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

• As I suspected. I also heard about Perro's voice that it had several key differences from Lupin's. --Ryanasaurus007 (talk) 16:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The best scenes from Mamo to compare with the Arcadia clip are when Mamaux explains his impact on human history, and when his giant brain form tells Lupin and Margo of his intentions to find the true secret of immortality. PatTheMoron (talk) 00:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

One issue that might arise from finding these voice actors is that it's likely that we technically can't use these credits as it would constitute original research, which isn't allowed on Wikipedia. Also, knowing William Ross' dubbing practices, the cast list may never be truely complete in some areas, as Ross may have cast people who were tourists in Tokyo when he found them etc. In order to make our work here credible, I suggest that someone should bring our findings (once we have an approximate cast list) to Discotek Media's/Reed Nelson's attention so that they could apporve of our research. PatTheMoron (talk) 01:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

• You're right! Upon closer analysis and comparison, it would seem Mike Worman did voice Mamaux. The same clip also rules out Carrie Sakai as a possible voice for Margot, as Emeraldus and Margot sound distinctly different from each other. BTW where on Wikipedia do you suggest I compile a preliminary cast list for the Toho dub of this film? Just wondering, of course. --Ryanasaurus007 (talk) 05:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd recommend creating a draft cast list in the sandbox once enough voices have been found, then a final should be put on this talk page. I could try messaging Reed Nelson or Discotek via Facebook to see if they can apporve or add to any research made from this operation. PatTheMoron (talk) 10:14, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, just for the future, Fujiko is named 'Margo', not 'Margot', like so many believe. Margo was the spelling provided by the film's international trailer. PatTheMoron (talk) 10:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Just finished watching Kamui, and I think I recognized the voices of Dan Dunn, Margo, Gordon, and the Police Commissioner there. I think I heard Jigen's voice as Jiro's father, Gordon's voice as Tenkai, and the Police Commissioner's voice as Mark Twain--respectively, Cliff Harrington, Jack Marguardt, and Don Knode. I'll have to double-check, though. As for Margo, her voice actress could've been Judy Sackheim, Michelle Hart, Mary Malone, or Rumiko Varnes, though I suspect the latter was a Frontier newcomer in the mid-'80s, after Mamo was dubbed. William Ross also voiced a couple of characters, including the Village Elder who does some exposition on the dagger and Jiro's real mother, in Kamui. Could he have used either of those voices for another Mamo character besides the one we already know? (Seriously, the Village Elder in Kamui doesn't sound like Samurai; the Village Elder sounds a bit more gruff, whereas Samurai sounds more stentorian, assuming I'm using that word correctly.) --Ryanasaurus007 (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

You are quite right that none of this research is usable (comparing the voices is simply not reliable sourcing at all), and arguably that also means that using the talk page to conduct this sort of research is rather inappropriate when it can't be used. So I'm glad you've come to that conclusion already - it saves me having to make a fuss about it. As for having it "approved" by Reed or Discotek to use here this is a bit of a grey area and would probably depend on the end result, how it was published and if it can be properly verified. SephyTheThird(talk) 12:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I was talking about Mamaux's voice. --Ryanasaurus007 (talk) 12:24, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you recommend discussing this topic elsewhere, Sephy? I definitely think that we should continue conducting this research as much as possible, as we could be doing the Lupin fanbase and otakus in general a big service if we can match up as many of these voices in Mamo to actual names. I've heard Discotek is pretty good at handling emails from fans, so hopefully they 'could' aid in these findings. PatTheMoron (talk) 13:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be better, there are plenty of forums and such where this could be done. I'm all for research into the cast, but as I'm sure you've realised, Wikipedia done properly is reliant on hard fact which is difficult in this case, regardless of who approves of the research. For example, while Reed's on disc content is clearly usable by it being published on disc, using his site or twitter as a source is a grey area - similar to how Lupin Encyclopedia's content (non-forum) is now not considered a reliable source even though Luis Cruz wrote Lupin reviews for AnimeonDVD (a reliable source).SephyTheThird (talk) 13:33, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Any site/different areas of Wikipedia that you could specifically recommend? PatTheMoron (talk) 13:38, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Update for Sephy: Based on a voice clip from the film Swan Lake provided by me for comparison to Ryan, the best candidate for Margo's voice actress is Patricia Kobayashi. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLdzDySdN_I PatTheMoron (talk) 10:47, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Update: I found a source confirming Lupin to have been voiced by a certain Tom Clark. --Ryanasaurus0077 (talk) 18:03, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Not public domain

I reedited the claim "As the dub fell into the public domain, it was released on DVD by Image Entertainment in 1998, without the still-copyrighted Japanese dialogue." as this is simply inaccurate. I daresay it's impossible for Steamline's 1995 dub to have fallen in the US public domain, given the various upgrades and extensions given to US copyright laws. I suspect that Image licensed the dub from MGM, who only had the rights to Steamline dubbed version (They acquired Streamline through their buyout of Orion). Any claims that the dub is public domain need to be backed up by reliable sources. AtomicMysteryMonster (talk) 23:16, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

That is indeed the case. Orion Home Video was only around during the early years of DVD, and Image Entertainment released all of their DVDs. This is coming from someone who, as mentioned above, knew more about home video than early English-dubbed anime several years ago. --Ryanasaurus007 (talk) 08:45, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Quick assessments

I'm leaving it was a blank C since I am divided about the grading scheme and my own opinion. I'll note my issues below.

• Long paragraphs look unsourced until read to the end. I suggest encasing a paragraph with the source instead.
• Loose mini paragraphs in the release section.
• There are too many unknowns in the table. Why not just exclude the table to the main cast, which is complete under Manga UK.
• The plot is long but was not an influence on my assessment. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 11:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The cast table is probably the only thing I didn't touch. Currently I need to find sources for the entire casts before making any changes (Discotek release only has Jp credits in full), but I do plan on reducing it in length like you suggest. Release section is subject to more information but it is on my list of sources to check.Dandy Sephy (talk) 11:47, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Assessed. Left B1 blank. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 05:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Cast list

Um... why has the cast list been reduced to ONLY the core characters? No other Wikipedia page on anime dubs does this. Even if there are credits for voice actors missing across all four dubs, I think the original cast table should be restored. --120.146.186.233 (talk) 07:57, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

This was suggested by the user who reassessed the page in the section above.SephyTheThird (talk) 15:09, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Removal of the Punk Effect review

The review of the movie for the Punk Effect should be restored. Without a link as comprehensive as that, this article portrays the film in too negative a light without presenting a balanced opinion. Could something be done to make the Punk Effect be seen as a reliable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.146.186.233 (talk) 08:11, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that it's a random blog and doesn't pass any of wikipedia's consensus requirements of reliable sources. It was argued that it's a professional site, but there is no basis for this claim to use it as a wikipedia source. It's a good article, but also written by a high schooler who clearly isn't recognised as an expert in any of the applicable fields for this article. I agree a more balanced opinion is the correct goal, but we still have to use reliable sources to do so. However I would also argue that the film reception is mixed in general, the complaints about the third act are more or less universal but different reviewers have given different weights to how much it affects the film as a whole. I should note that the removal of the review was discussed with the user who added it, who also happened to be the person who wrote it in the first place - wikipedia isn't for promoting your own articles. SephyTheThird (talk) 15:20, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I've removed it again. It's irrelevant if it balances out opinion of the film when it doesn't pass RS. Random blogs are not RS and neither the author or host have any established reputation for professional criticism and discussion - regardless of how the quality of writing in either the movie or anime fields.SephyTheThird (talk) 12:41, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about that. To make up for the loss of a generally great article, I've replaced it with a summary of Why Mamo Matters from the Discotek DVD. Since it was created for the Discotek release and ANN is a trusted source (I think), I hope it's a good substitute. (PS - What improvements could be made to the article to pass B class standard assessments? As you can see, I've made plenty of changes to the article - which I only hope can be seen as improvements - but do you have any suggestions? I've still had trouble cutting down the plot summary because I can't really find any other ways of shortening it without making it incoherent. Thanks!--120.146.186.233 (talk) 07:59, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

yes, I agree the replacement is better for our purposes. Being on the disc itself isn't a problem if we present it right. I need to have a fresh look at what we have, I have some things to add and possibly change but have deliberately held it back to give a fairer assessment. We probably need more for a B, but it's on the right track.SephyTheThird (talk) 10:25, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Refs

Just from a quick scan of the Referances, two stick out for the wrong reasons. Firstly, I've found nothing so far to suggest Toho Kingdom is a reliable source. However I've left it so far as thee may be evidence it has been used by other reliable sources - we should consider replacing it if we can. Also while ANN's created content (I.e. Review, interviews, etc)is RS, it's encyclopedia however is not, at least one refs needs to be changed.SephyTheThird (talk) 12:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I did find the box office performance of the movie on the Japanese version of the movie's article, and searched for AGES to find some kind of source. I thought that Toho Kingdom would be a reliable source since Toho was the original Japanese distributor. I think I heard from elsewhere about the Toho dub being restored from multiple versions, but I lost track of the original source. For now, is ti alright if I leave the Toho dub fact un-sourced?--120.146.186.233 (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Toho Kingdom isn't affiliated with Toho though (the site even has a big disclaimer at the bottom). I have asked about it on a wikiproject before, but I'll run it past some others in case it's been used by RS sites as a source. At the moment it's supporting a claim that really needs a proper RS source or to be removed completely.SephyTheThird (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I see no evidence of its reliability. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 18:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

A quick scan of 3 Lupin dedicated books I have (Anime 40th anniversary book, Perfect Book and Kinema-Junpo's Lupin III files) , as well as the Discotek DVD release failed to turn up a box office figure. I'm removing it, it's the sort of information that really needs a good source and can easily be doubted. SephyTheThird (talk) 19:38, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Would be some way of contacting the site managers at TK to see how and where they got their box office info? --120.146.186.233 (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Gather 'round, friends! I believe I may have found Toho Kingdom's source for the box office performance of the film. After a brief search through the Japanese article on the movie, I came across this passage:

配給収入 は9億1500万円で1979年公開の日本映画としては9位、 キネマ旬報ベスト・テン では26位だった [8] 。

According to Google translate, the passage reads something like this (watch out for typical Google translate issues):

Distribution revenue at 900 million 15 million yen as Japanese films of 1979 published 9 position, the Kinema Junpo Ten Best was # 26 in [8] .

Source [8] is described as being:

(Japanese): キネマ旬報ベスト・テン全史1946-1996』キネマ旬報社、1984年初版、1997年4版、po.224、237

(English, rough translation): 4 edition "Kinema Junpo Best Ten complete history 1946-1996" Kinemajunposha, 1984 first edition, in 1997, po.224, 237

I hope this puts us on the right track for finding a reliable source for the film's box office performance. P.S. I've provided the (full) release dates for Madman Entertainment's DVD and Image's DVD, but the best I could come up with for Streamline/Orion's VHS was April 1995 from ANN's release date data on the film. Is this part of ANN considered reliable? --120.146.186.233 (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Haward/Hayward Lockewood?

As you can see, I've added some additional variants of the characters' names in the cast list, namely 'Detective Zenigata' (which is what Inspector Zenigata was called in the Streamline and Manga dubs) and 'Haward Lockewood.' For their dub, Streamline changed the pronunciation of Mamo's real name (Howard Lockewood in the Japanese version and Geneon dub) to make up for a translation goof late in the film (in which 'Howard Lockewood' is misspelled as 'Haward Lockewood'). However, some (including previous versions of this movie's article) have shown that Streamline's intended spelling of the name was 'Hayward Lockewood'. Is there any evidence to support 'Hayward Lockewood' as an actual variant of Mamo's real name? If not, I'll just keep it as Haward. --120.146.186.233 (talk) 08:02, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikitalk

As a heads-up, I've created a Wikitalk page for this movie. However, I don't think it should be added just yet - it's pretty rough and so far only uses quotes from the Toho dub. --120.146.186.233 (talk) 11:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

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Goemon's voice actor in the Streamline version

In 2015, an anonymous user edited the cast of the Streamline English version to replace Kirk Thornton with Ardwight Chamberlain as Goemon's voice actor. This change was supported by another anonymous user. Neither user provided a citation to confirm that Chamberlain was the voice of Goemon instead of Thornton.

The first editor stated that "Thornton's name doesn't even show up during the credits" and this is correct - however, Chamberlain's name doesn't show up either, at least not as a voice actor. The names that appear in the credits (and I can provide an image I took of the credits, if necessary) are Bob Bergen, David Povall, Steve Kramer, Steve Bulen, Robert Axelrod, Edie Mirman, Michael Forest, and Jeff Winkless. Chamberlain received staff credit, but not acting credit.

If we assume Goemon's voice actor was credited in the Streamline version, that means the voice actor was not Thornton or Chamberlain - he was one of the seven aforementioned voice actors to receive credit. But if the voice actor was uncredited, then he could have been Thornton, Chamberlain, or another voice actor at the time. Again, Chamberlain was added to the cast section without a citation and I have not found any reliable sources to confirm if Chamberlain, Thornton, or another individual voiced Goemon in this version. So with this mind, who should we have attributed as voicing Goemon in the Streamline version and are there any references to confirm this? Bluerules (talk) 00:46, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

The 2022 Discotek Blu-Ray credits Ardwight Chamberlain as Goemon (the Blu-Ray uses footage of the original Japanese opening credits, with subtitles tied to the audio track to credit each voice actor). However the special features do not expand on how this credit was found:

• The original Streamline opening and closing credits are included. The voice cast section only includes a selection of names, not specifying the character(s) voiced; however, as Bluerules indicated, Chamberlain is not present on this list, instead credited for "Dialogue Written By".
• The liner note essay A History of Mamo in English goes into detail on how the Toho dub cast's identities were deduced, but only briefly touches on the Streamline cast. For Goemon, it only refers to his "new voice" in contrast to Castle of Cagliostro (i.e. not Steve Kramer) but does not specify Chamberlain or any name.
• Interestingly, A History of Mamo in English does specifically mention that a persistent rumor of Peter Fernandez's involvement in the Toho dub was due to "wiki vandalism", which implies Discotek did their due diligence in crediting Chamberlain rather than quickly browsing the latest revision of a Wikipedia article.

I'm not familiar enough with either man's voice to say "this Goemon sounds more like so-and-so" (and this would likely violate WP:NOR anyway), but the Discotek release ought to be a solid reference for this credit. Mashed Potate Jones (talk) 18:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)