Talk:Matthew Webb

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2020 and 3 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Baileybethj.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Pop culture

I removed the following, but it was then reinserted and I removed it again -

An episode of the Peabody's Improbable History segment in the TV cartoon series Rocky and His Friends featured the first swim across the Channel. Oddly, the character was referred to as Captain Clift. That set up an ending joke about the "White Clifts of Dover", but left the name change unexplained. It could be an inside joke, as the actor Clifton Webb was said to be the inspiration for the Peabody character.

Please, of all the possible references in popular culture, this must be one of the most uninteresting. A character's name in a segment of some 40 year old cartoon that lasts about 5 minutes. Most people outside of the USA will have never heard of Rocky and Bulwinkle and are uniliky to come to this page to find out about it. Put it in the Rocky an Bulwinkle article, not here. Jooler 02:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Where is the page on Matthew Webb the famous salesman gone, I saw that it was a stub, and obviously hadn't been completed yet but surely that's no need to have it removed.

That article was deleted as an autobiographical vanity page for a non-notable person. - Bobet 13:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It isn't an autobiographical vanity page though???? How dare you describe it as vain!!!!

Ya, I'm sure it was written by some other totally unrelated Mattwebb24, that knew a lot about his personal life but couldn't provide any information about how the person was notable. This Matthew Webb should really be careful about his namesake stalker. - Bobet 14:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

A Shropshire Lad

I'm certain this was written by A E Housman and not John Betjemen. I'll change it if it checks out Plutonium27 18:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Whilst Housman undobtedly wrote a cycle calles "A Shropshire Lad", Betjeman seems to have 'stolen' the title for a single poem. Try http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Betjeman.htm for JB reading his own poem to an accompaniment of brass music.-- which I have just discovered is linked from the Wikipedia Betjeman page. 81.139.128.179 13:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt Webb

There's also Matt Webb, does this mean there needs to be a disambiguation link? 86.20.232.204 (talk) 14:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Other training venues

Can anyone find a reference or dates to show if Captain Webb trained weekly in Hollingworth Lake, Littleborough?90.218.48.243 (talk) 19:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Stanhope Medal

What is the Stanhope Medal? Drutt (talk) 19:56, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Given for lifesaving. It was named after a relative of the earls of chesterfield[1][2]. I'm not sure if he or the medal are notable. I can find no other reference to them on WP. Drutt (talk) 18:19, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Portrait

Can we find nothing better than a cariacture for the portrait? 217.20.20.85 (talk) 15:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

There are two photographs from 1883 of him online here, which might be copyright free... Quite likely that the photographer of these has been dead for at least 70 years. The library seems to claim copyright for scanning them from an historical newspaper, but that claim has no basis in copyright law.--Feuerrabe (talk) 12:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

That link doesn't work as is. Here is a working version of the link to your search at the Niagara Falls Public Library. -- ToE 20:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Brother Thomas: younger or elder ?

"Early life and career" section says "In the summer of 1863, while at home, he rescued his 12 year old brother Thomas from drowning in the Severn near Ironbridge". This means that Thomas is a YOUNGER brother of Matthew, who should have been 15 then. Meanwhile, "Legacy" section says "In 1909, Webb's ELDER brother Thomas unveiled a memorial in Dawley" (my emphasis). Was Thomas a younger or elder brother to Matthew ? Or, were there two brothers both named Thomas, maybe with different middle names ?--山田晴通 (talk) 07:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hard to retrieve sources

Noting here that Swimming Notes and Record, 1884 and Royal Humane Society Annual Report, 1874 contain information on Webb's Stanhope Medal attempted rescue (referenced in Webb's entry in the Dictionary of National Biography), but these sources are hard to retrieve. It is a wonderful world (talk) 21:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Dating errors - wrong century!?

There are several references in Captain Webb's history to occasions happening in e.g. 1979 when the dates should be showing e.g. 1879! 2603:9001:6C00:632E:44D3:B4C5:8BE7:6F24 (talk) 04:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

You are correct. This was my mistake, just a simple typo. I have fixed it now. Next time though, go ahead and fix it yourself! This is the reason anyone can edit. If you see a mistake, fix it! It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Mr R. H. Horne MP

Who was "Mr R. H. Horne MP"? I cannot identify him. DuncanHill (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The name and title is explicitly mentioned in the first reference, however I could not find him either. The earliest source that mentions this is Williams 1884, which is also cited, however this source does not refer to him as an MP.

With further research I just did, based on this letter it looks like the first reference made a mistake and he was not actually an MP. I have removed the title "MP".

Thank you for this great catch and all the other fixes. It is a wonderful world (talk) 08:42, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

My pleasure. We have an article Richard Henry Horne. DuncanHill (talk) 11:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Matthew Webb/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 11:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 13:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll review this over the next few days :) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey It is a wonderful world, not sure if you saw my comments here. Could you do a copyedit to make the prose more concise before I continue so I'm not repeating myself? Thanks Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, my apologies. I assumed this page would be in my watchlist but it isn't. I'll copyedit today. It is a wonderful world (talk) 08:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave I have condensed it significantly (-9000+) bytes. Let me know if you would like me to condense further. It is a wonderful world (talk) 14:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Prose and content

• The early life section can be cut right down. It is mostly sourced to a local area's heritage website. Street names can be cut, as the audience for the source is locals who know the streets, so it has significance for them, but not for Wikipedia readers. Or, it's relevant that he had thirteen siblings, the gender breakdown isn't.
• One story that Webb remembered well into adult life was Daniel in the lions' den. cut this.
• Webb was fearless and enjoyed cut this, or swap fearless for brave
• Webb also enjoyed painting pictures of animals and reading stories of the sea.
• He was particularly influenced by the book Old Jack by W. H. G. Kingston, which was one of his inspirations to become a seaman. make this more concise. You're repeating information.
• it was decided by him and his parents that Webb should leave school and join the Merchant Service,[15] and so he applied and was accepted active voice, a lot more concise
• In just his first few days on the ship, he felt homesick and hated the harsh living conditions, saying "I was hardly afloat before I wished myself back again to my comfortable home". the quote is too much.
• On the Conway, Webb was taught both traditional school classes (English, mathematics, history etc.) and specialised classes in nautical skills (map reading, astronomy, sailing etc.) much of this sentence is redundant, since you say that he did both of these as part of his daily routine. You can add the parentheses to that sentence and lose the rest.

Going to leave this here for now. I hope you can copyedit the article in light of this. I've read through some of the source "The Crossing", and I can see that the sources you're drawing from are popular and so there's a lot of extraneous information. But the prose needs to be concise to meet WP:GACR#1a. Good luck!

Sources

• Link The Crossing

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Linked It is a wonderful world (talk) 14:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Restarting

Prose and content

• Born in Dawley, Shropshire Webb WP:GEOCOMMA

Fixed

• public subscription what is this?

Changed to "public donation"

• : In 1877 lowercase after colon. Reword this sentence to avoid the colon, use active voice, and put the dates at the end of clauses, i.e. In 1877, he completed a 40 mile swim from Gravesend to Woolwich along the Thames, → completing a 40 mile swim from Gravesend to Woolwich along the Thames in 1877,. You should also only use three examples maximum when summarizing his achievements here.

Fixed lowercase and dates at end of clauses, cut down to three examples. I was already in active voice though?

• Despite these swimming accomplishments

Fixed

• where Webb developed his swimming abilities you can merge this sentence with the previous with a comma.

Fixed

• The Webb family were Anglicans, so Webb was familiar with the stories of the Bible. you should just use Anglican as an adjective somewhere to describe the family, it doesn't need its own sentence.

Fixed

• from drowning in the Severn

Fixed

• right arm is there significance to it being on his right?

I kept this in because it was used to identify his body in Niagara, but I cut that bit so there is no need for it now.

• 12-year-old brother Thomas a different brother named Thomas? haha

Yeah so confusing

• gloss Aden, Varne Lightvessel

Not sure what you mean

• ". Rather, you should " reword this into the quote so it's not in wikivoice

Wasn't possible to reword into the quote, but I made got rid of "rather, you should" to make it more neutral.

• Webb had to stay with the Rathbone Brothers until his contract expired in 1865, but as soon as it ended this can be more concise; you have to stay with someone if you're in a contract with them, you don't need to spell this out

Condensed

• He even competed with a dog from Newfoundland to see who could swim the longest in the rough sea. After an hour, Webb was still swimming but the dog was exhausted and was rescued from the water. even is editorializing; format this as "in one anecdote"

Fixed

• Yet another another one of Webb's stunts it feels strange to describe this as a stunt

I agree, I removed this whole sentence to make it more concise

• until it was cut and the propeller was freed

Fixed

• , and said he had a flashback of his whole life cut

Fixed

• banded together more encyclopedic tone

Changed to "collaborated"

• J. B. Johnson redlink or cut

Redlinked, I have a draft on him in one of my sandboxes

• begin practising practice

Fixed

• Watson was surprised by Webb's return ambiguous whether return from Varne Lightvessel or Dover

Fixed

• and magnificent sweep of his ponderous legs cut

Fixed

• the elements euphemistic

Reworded sentence to make more concise and fix this

• Webb always said that Boyton was "an obvious fraud". rw to avoid "always said that"; too informal. Attribute a time if possible

Cut "always" source does not attribute time.

• On the 3 July

Fixed

• , with newspapers such as Bell's Life, Land and Water, The Daily News and The Globe all reporting on it cut

Fixed

• Webb's next swim was from Dover to Ramsgate do you know how far this is?

Twenty miles, added

• Despite heavy rain, he set off just before 10 a.m. with the tide in his favor but the rain against him.

Fixed

• by Dr. Henry Smith is he notable?

Nope, cut

• The report was once again printed in Land and Water, and was extremely detailed. what report?

Added "medical" to make it clear it was the medical report

• called Frank Buckland cut

Fixed

• The intent was to shield his eyes from the splashing of the salt water, however they only made the problem worse. this is a strange sentence; it is obvious they are an attempt to shield his eyes given they are goggles and it is unclear how they could make the problem worse

Cut this, replaced with "but they did not work". The source wasn't very clear, but I should have summarised more.

• Webb swam until he could not swim any longer, boarding the boat only fifteen minutes before the conditions became so bad that he would not have been able to. reword for more encyclopedic tone

Reworded to "Webb boarded the boat fifteen minutes before the weather conditions would have stopped him doing so"

• Captain Toms just call him Toms

Fixed all occurrences

• Lugger Ann with the rest of the crew from

Fixed

• the captain Pittock is "the" appropriate here?

Nope, removed it

• Webb began his second attempt by diving

Fixed

• If you're going to describe the crew in the swim section, and it's the same as it was in the plans, you can eliminate duplicate mentions in the planning section

Removed duplicates

• Cut the Rule Brittanica quote

Fixed

• After approximately 21 hours and 40 minutes is there a reason you use "approximately" here?

Changed to "After just under 22 hours". Sources were quite vague on this, but the DNB says specifically it was under 22 hours which is more precise.

• , completing the first successful cross-channel swim without artificial aid cut

Fixed

• Cut the return to England section in half
• Merge the attention sections into one.
• Mr R. H. Horne → Richard Henry Horne

Fixed

• The swimming career section does not need all these subsections, they can be merged, especially when they are only three sentences long.
• determined to try a second time the following year try again
• was exceedingly generous this is puffery. Attribute, explain or dampen
• had fallen into financial trouble this reads as euphemistic
• he brought his feats to America for the first time puffery again.
• correct the link to Manhattan Beach
• and arriving three hours early at Manhattan Beach the crew or Webb?
• and retired to bed euphemistic
• On August 22 elsewhere you use DDMMYYYY. Same with September 6, 14
• and Boyton got off to a very fast start. Unfortunately for Webb, he got a severe cramp which ended his race, while Boyton simply cruised to the finish. reword this, it is too informal
• indicating that he was probably biased cut or attribute (preferably latter)
• and Hartley later said he had felt like he was going to get cramps as he did more clarity on pronouns, ambiguous use of "he"
• Back in England on 27 April 1880 this is when he returned to England or when he got married? Either way, more formal.
• Webb made his health even worse don't blame him so much, just Webb's health worsened
• busied himself inventing new things this is quite vague, could you clarify?
• Driven by his worsening financial situation and desire for fame attribute

Removed for conciseness

• with Webb maintaining the intention to complete the stunt that many observers considered suicidal. too informal, the first part also feels redundant given the previous sentence referring to his intent to complete the stunt.

Removed for conciseness

• Beckwith and Watson tried give his full name given you've just referred to a different Beckwith.

Fixed

• Webb made an impromptu plan and called a press conference to explain it a plan for the swim or logistics? What is this referring to?

Removed for conciseness

• Webb's final conversation was with the boat operator Jack McCloy as he was rowed to the rapids. They conversed about Webb's family, his channel crossing and his swimming exhibitions since then. McCloy tried to dissuade him one final time, but Webb only waved, smiled and said "goodbye boy", before exiting the boat. cut this in half at least.

Significantly reduced

• Could you explain what the Whirlpool Rapids are so I can understand better what it means to swim through them?
• and then at 22:00 he stopped the search offering a $100 reward for whoever could find Webb's body awkward wording
• but Kyle told everyone who is everyone?
• You refer to Madeleine as "his wife" a lot, can you refer to her as Madeline?
• died from drowning drowned
• The body had a cut on the forehead, which caused people to assume he was knocked out on a submerged rock, and then died from drowning.[1] However, the autopsy revealed that the cut was made after his death, is it important to mention this brief speculation of what the cut said about his death?
• His widow and family were distraught upon hearing the news, and his widow said that she hadn't even entertained the idea that he might not complete it. cut this
• The Land and Water put shame on the risks put shame is very awkward wording
• In January, Webb's widow [returned to the burial site to rebury the body with a proper funeral.] reburied Webb with another funeral
• The Legacy#Family section can be cut. Perhaps the wife remarrying can be kept. (WP:NOTGENEOLOGY)
• mentioned how much good Webb had done by inspiring the whole country to go swimming, with the London Baths overflowing with people, and many others swimming in open bodies of water inappropriate use of wikivoice, attribute all this. MOS:SAID
• and many new swimming pools were opened with the Baths and Washhouses Act allowing local authorities to build them what is the relevance to this re; Webb?
• Shortly after Webb's death, several periodical swimming championships were started because of Webb?
• Webb expressed in his lifetime that he wanted to inspire more people to learn to swim, and even wrote his own book called The Art of Swimming,[1] though this was mostly written by Arthur Payne. and this impacted swimming?
• was interviewed. She spoke highly of Webb, and cut
• It took thirty-six years... four-way crossing by Sarah Thomas in 2019. I am unsure why this is in the section Legacy#Impact on swimming
• Some time after Webb's death, cut
• produced it around the same time that the Captain Webb Memorial in Dawley was unveiled cut
• The Baldwin Bros., a photography firm in Dawley, produced bring this to the start of the sentence, after "in 1909".
• Webb Crescent and the Captain... this paragraph doesn't have to repeat "are named after him"
• Cultural references unclear why this section isn't under Legacy
• NME single of the week could you expand on this?
• initially under the working title The Greatest Englishman, cut
• Justin Hardy redlink if passes GNG, else cut. Same with Jemma.

Suggestions

• When you're doing blockquotes, use Template:blockquote
• Use inflation for Webb bet £100
• that he should he should completely → him to
• 23rd October 1909 previously you have not used the rd/th etc after dates

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Images

Some of these are unnecessary and don't add much as they don't illustrate the content: Rathbones, Stanhope, Tavern, Breaststroke, Thames

I removed them all except the Stanhope medal, since it provides a nice visualization of the medal Webb was given.

Captions

• Boat crew feeding Matthew Webb hot coffee

Fixed

• Looking downriver at the Niagara rapids and gorge, from the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge across the Niagara River is this part needed?

Removed

• Portrait of Captain Webb

Fixed

Neutral

This is the largest issue at the moment, hopefully with the comments above this will be addressed but I'll have another read through.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs), thank you so much for your detailed review. It's clear I need to work a lot on the conciseness and neutrality of the article, which stems from me needing to improve my writing in these areas. The scale of improvement needed seems to be beyond the scope of a GAR timescale though.

Would you oppose closing the review, which would allow me time to:

• Address all the points properly
• Improve the conciseness and neutrality in my writing to GA standard
• Rewrite a lot of the article (especially later parts) with better writing skills

Then after all of that, I can submit a GAN again and hopefully the process would be shorter and easier for the reviewer, and the article will be better as a result. It is a wonderful world (talk) 09:31, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I can of course do that. And you can just drop a note on my talk when you repost it to GAN. Thankyou for your work on this article. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Matthew Webb/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 22:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 07:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Saving my spot for when you're ready for me to review. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) I have finished addressing points. It's ready to review! It is a wonderful world (talk) 09:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It is a wonderful world Once you finish the tagging of images with PD and the dates I can pass this! Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:32, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Done! It is a wonderful world (talk) 10:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Prose and content

• latter feat refer to this as an act for neutrality

Fixed

• but rather as a medical

Fixed

• Generally avoid one paragraph long sections, you can just remove the subheading "Training on the Conway"

Fixed

• Hong Kong again what is "again" doing here?

Because his first voyage was also to Singapore and Hong Kong. I removed the sentence though since it's unnecessary and confusing.

• link Prize money to purse

Done

• his daring attempted rescue

Done

• doubted Webb would swim the channel attempt or succeed?

Attempt, clarified

• paddled is there a reason you refer to Boyton's swimming as "paddling"?

Yes, he used a suit with a paddle which he would use to paddle feet first on his back. Do you think I should mention this?

• journey Dover to Ramsgate journey from

Fixed

• weather, and remove comma, WP:CINS

Fixed

• Preparations and first attempt

Fixed

• captain Pittock capitalise captain for title

Fixed

• swim—and John Graham Chambers why the dash?

The double em-dash was used to set "who joined Webb in the water for parts of the swim" as an aside. Do you think I should replace them with commas or parentheses, or restructure the sentence?

Just commas. You can use double em-dash, but it should be used throughout for consistency.

Fixed

• at a rate of 25 strokes per minute

Fixed

• but did not deter him after he had a shot of brandy but he continued after; more neutral

Done

• the Toms

Fixed

• August 25 dmy

Fixed

• and later slept in the Hotel

Fixed

• Webb had a temperature of 38 °C add "after his swim" to the start, as this is a new section about reception; signposting

Fixed

• According to Saloon, replace "salon"

Replaced with "saloon", there doesn't appear to be a specific word for a saloon on a passenger ship

• People in Wellington expected his arrival, so cut

Replaced with "In Wellington,"

• where people welcomed him could you explain what this means?

I cut this out, meaning the sentence now reads: "In Wellington, a crowd brought his carriage to Ironbridge, where the Mayor of Wenlock greeted him"

• Lord Mayor of London links to a disambiguation page (you can see these by going into preferences and tick "Display links to disambiguation pages in orange")

Changed preference and fixed. This is useful!

• , then returned to Dover where he and Toms reunited with the crew for dinner cut

Done

• Webb received gifts, including gold cuff links and collar studs, a gold watch, a North London Swimming Club gold cross, a solitaire, a silver cup and a jewelled tie pin. too many gifts listed. Can cut some out.

Cut to three remaining

• The autopsy revealed that the cut occurred after his death left behind by an earlier draft

Fixed

• and blamed the railway companies blamed for the death or criticised them

Blamed for his death, fixed

• In 1909 a postcard produced by a photography firm in Dawley depicted a pig on a wall watching Webb's post-channel procession go by. indicate why this is notable / worth mentioning

Changed to "In 1909 a postcard produced by a photography firm in Dawley depicted the legend of a pig lifting its hind legs onto a wall, to watch Webb's post-channel procession go by." The Shropshire Star also mentions a court case disputing the rights to this postcard, do you think that is also worth mentioning?

I don't think so, it's more important to mention "and this is famous" or something to assert why it's not just a random postcard.

I added "In 2017, the postcard was used in a creative writing contest for children in Shropshire".

I don't think that establishes notability or relevance. Is there a different way you can put this?

I couldn't find a way to increase its relevance, so I removed it.

• The legacy section really doesn't need subheadings and a lot can be merged into one paragraph.

Done

• Cultural references sections are generally discouraged on Wikipedia (see MOS:CULTURALREFS). The Peter Sellers ref should be cut. The rest can be merged into the legacy section.

Done

• Death in Niagara Rapids

Fixed

• Webb said he wanted to inspire more people this sentence reads awkwardly

Removed "said he"

Suggestions

• diving underwater and cutting it with a knife cutting it free

Removed "with a knife". The diving underwater part is what makes this note-worthy in my opinion. I also don't think the word "free" needs to be repeated.

• Link knots

Linked

• £2,424 (about £290,000 today) MOS:DATED, instead of using a source's inflation calculation, you can use template:inflation. Same with £100, $1,000 and $4,000

I did use template:inflation

• He planned to start on the east flood tide and catch the current as it turned west,[51] and chose the lugger boat Ann for support—which was captained by George Toms. repetition of "and" reads awkwardly. Why do you use a dash between support and which?

I agree, I split it into two sentences, and replaced the dash with a comma

• ten am MOS:TIME use a template:nbsp in between, and use figures rather than words for ten.

Done, do you think I should just write 10:00? The rest of the article uses 24-hour times, do would it be too ambiguous?

It's not too ambiguous, even 10 am is fine, just so long as it's not ten am.

I changed it to 10:00 for consistency.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• Is the source number in [1] the page number? When I hover over these it seems like the page is 110-111.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The Seccombe source is pages 104-105. What is the "source number"?

No worries.

• What makes The Adventurous Life and Daring Exploits in England and America of Capt. Matthew Webb a RS? Same with The Channel Feats of Captain Webb and Captain Boyton?

They are both books published by publishers which I could not find any problem with. I understand that some publishers are unreliable, but I could not find any problems with the reliability of these publishers. Is there a way to check publisher reliability?

It's hard to check publisher reliability. But you can kind of just tell reading the sources that they're not neutral and are for a popular audience and tending to hyperbole. Do modern scholars comment on these texts at all? Do any academics use them as references?

Since writing the above I have briefly had a look to see what the academic literature is on the subject of Webb. I can see some discussion in Water Defences: The Arts of Swimming in Nineteenth-Century Culture, which says about the above sources on page 45 "The appearance of penny pamphlets, including Henry Llewellyn Williams' Adventurous Life of Capt. Matthew Webb, with its sensationalist tone ('at first he kept on his way swimming, but abruptly he threw up his arms and without a murmur, far less a cry, was drawn under to his death') suggests not only the esteem with which Webb was held but the growing popularity of the sport itself."

It appears clear they're not RS. Information therein should be attributed, if used at all.

I have removed almost all citations to these sources. I mostly used them because I felt the article was over-reliant on Watson. Nevertheless, removing them had the following two implications:

• I removed the footnote explaining the birthdate error in the Oxford DNB
• I attributed "during the swim, he tried an early form of goggles without a seal, which he called "barnacles", but they did not work" to Dolphin from the Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News

• Link to internet archive's copy of The Story of Your Life (https://archive.org/details/storyofyourlifeh0000lamb)

Done

Spot check

• [1f] Y
• [15a] N this seems to directly contradict the statement; no swimming was involved in the rescue

I misunderstood the old English of this source at the time. I have removed the mention of swimming in that sentence.

• [30] Y
• [45] Y
• [60a] Y although just say bacon and eggs, I think there will be some historicity issues with when the English breakfast arose

Fixed

• [75] clock this was on page 139

Fixed

• [90a] Y
• [105] Y
• [120] Y
• [135] Y
• [150] Y

Other

• Images appropriately captioned/tagged clock

• Webb in The Illustrated London News, 1883 is PD, not copyrighted

Fixed

• The date on the HMS Conway picture is wrong

I couldn't find the date of this image on the website it was supposedly taken from. I have contacted the owner of the website to see if they know.

I believe it's 1909 based on this. Some alternatives 1800s, 1896

Well found, I changed the date on commons. Not sure why it didn't occur to me just to use another image.

• Stanhope medal PD, not copyrighted

Fixed

• Paul Boyton is PD, not copyrighted

Fixed

• When was the Admiralty Pier, Dover picture published?

I don't know, nor can I figure it out.

"Created between ca 1890 and ca 1900 Detroit Publishing Co. Catalogue J, 1905. Print no. 10293. Views of England" photo uploader link

Well found again. I added the date range to the caption. I didn't change the date on commons because I'm not sure the date field is meant to contain date ranges.

It's fine to change the date to a range on Commons. You can see on my upload of File:Mayan people and chocolate.jpg an example. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:32, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Changed

• Portrait of Webb in his red swimming trunks on a cigarette box is PD, not copyrighted

Removed

• There are too many pictures, and on my device it's overflowing far into the references section. Some need to be cut or moved.

Removed less significant ones

• Broad / summary style clock I want to see how the article looks after sourcing issues are addressed before I evaluate this.

Y Happy with breadth

• Neutral clock same as above

Y Happy with neutrality

• Stable Y
• No OR / COPYVIO Y 20.6% wp:earwig, paraphrasing okay for closeness

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by NightWolf1223 talk 22:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Matthew Webb swam for nearly 22 hours to become the first person to cross the English Channel unaided?

• Source: Seccombe, Thomas (1899). "Webb, Matthew" . In Lee, Sidney (ed.). Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 60. London: Smith, Elder & Co. p. 105: "At the beginning of August 1875 public interest was greatly aroused by the announcement that Webb intended to attempt the feat of swimming across the English Channel without any artificial aid. The attempt made by J. B. Johnson to swim the straits in August 1872 had ended in a fiasco. On 28 May 1875 Captain Paul Boyton, the American life-saving expert, had, after one failure, successfully accomplished the feat of paddling across the Straits when clothed in his patent dress; but although the journey demonstrated the great value of the dress, the paddle in itself was mere child's play in comparison with the task which Webb set himself to accomplish. His first attempt on 12 Aug. was a failure, owing to the fact that he drifted upwards of nine miles out of his proper course in consequence of the strong current and the stress of weather. Twelve days later he dived from the Admiralty Pier, Dover, a few seconds before one o'clock in the afternoon (31/4 hours before high water on a 15 ft. 10 in. tide), and swimming through the night by a three-quarter moon reached Calais at 10.40 A.M. next morning (25 Aug.), having been immersed for nearly twenty-two hours, and having swum a distance of about forty miles without having touched a boat or artificial support of any kind."

• ALT1: ... that Matthew Webb died attempting to swim down the Niagara Rapids? Source: Watson, Kathy (2001). The crossing: the glorious tragedy of the first man to swim the English channel. New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons. ISBN 1-58542-109-X: 223-224, 230 (link to fulltext in article sources)
• Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by It is a wonderful world (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

It is a wonderful world (talk) 08:42, 5 October 2024 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: @It is a wonderful world: No issues from a DYK stand, GA is new enough(despite what DYKCheck thinks?), interesting hook, certainly comprehensively cited, no need for a quid pro quo. Earwig caught a few similar clips but they're generic and small enough that I don't see any issue with copyvio. Marking as AGF since I don't have access to the text for the hook cite. Awesome work, approved from me. PixDeVl yell talk to me! 22:11, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Betjeman

Re. John Betjeman's 1940 NME single of the week "A Shropshire Lad": That reads oddly: presumably the poem was written in 1940 (the given sources don't specify) but the NME didn't come along until 1952. And it's primarily a poem, despite Betjeman's recording an instrumentalised version of it in the 1970s. Moscow Mule (talk) 12:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Nice catch, I missed that the sources don't support the 1940 date, so I removed it.

[145] says "Hearing him try to mimic a Midlands accent on A Shropshire Lad is good for a laugh. He sounds more like he's from West Yorkshire. Or West Virginia. But that track still made single of the week in the NME when it was released."

Am I interpreting this wrong, or is the source just flat out wrong?

Either way, I think it should just be changed to John Betjeman's poem "A Shropshire Lad". Would you agree? It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind reply. Googling reveals the poem was included in a 1940 collection, fwiw. And reference 145 works: Betjeman reading the poem was issued on a single in 1974, and there's no reason to dispute the NME choosing it as its single of the week. But that's a bit secondary, a bit trivial, w/r/t the poem in book form. I was thinking of something along the lines of your suggested rewording and losing the NME mention all together (but wasn't feeling particularly bold at the time). Go for it. Moscow Mule (talk) 17:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Bonus: presumably this is the recording in question. And no, I didn't make it to the end.

Looks like someone did it for me! (neither did I reach the end of that recording...) It is a wonderful world (talk) 19:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC)