Talk:Michael Dillon

Untitled comments

I believe mention should be made in this article, which names Dr. Michael Dillon as the first female-to-male transsexual to undergo sex reassignment surgery, of Dr. Allan Hart, who underwent hysterectomy for the purposes of transitioning to male in 1917 or 1918 (see also here). "Sex reassignment surgery" is a bit of a misnomer, as it is not one surgery but a number of different surgical procedures, any one or any combination of which may be sufficient to allow an individual to live in the social role they see as appropriate to their gender identity. I believe the wikipedia entry on sex reassignment surgery makes this clear. I am therefore editing this article to reflect that Michael Dillon is the first trans man to undergo phalloplasty, rather than using the more general and potentially-misleading "sex reassignment surgery." —k.a.l. 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: We have an article on Alan L. Hart. -- The Anome (talk) 19:23, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 13 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. It was pointed out that MOS:GENDERID does not apply here as the name change is not due to a self-expressed gender identification, so the name of the article should follow the name under which the subject was most notable. (non-admin closure) WPscatter ^t/_c 19:08, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

---

Michael Dillon → Lobzang Jivaka – MOS:GENDERID calls for using the subject's latest preferred name (Lobzang Jivaka) rather than the most common name (Michael Dillon). gnu57 18:43, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: If I understand correctly, both names are male, so MOS:GENDERID may not really apply to the choice. Also, MOS:GENDERID is primarily about living people. Matters may be more difficult to ascertain for long-dead people. This may be a bit more like Cat Stevens or Stokely Carmichael, where the person's greatest notability uses a different name than their most recent name. I also notice that the nominator has submitted other questionable renaming proposals very recently, which makes me skeptical about this one as well. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:10, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rv. 1192127025 Notability as a rower

Per WP:BIO#Sports_personalities I don't see how his highschool rowing is considered notable. The only source for this information is included from a biography of his importance as a trans man, not as a rower. there appears to be no media coverage focusing on his highschool activities at all. Liz-wiki-en (talk) 23:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

"High school"? I think you mean rowing for Oxford University in the Women's Boat Race 1935 and the Women's Boat Race 1936; in both of these pages Dillon is wiki-linked which is notable. Nedrutland (talk) 23:18, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Linked because he has an existing article, not because the information itself is notable. this is shown by how the other rowers don't have articles. Liz-wiki-en (talk) 00:23, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Michael Dillon/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Unexpectedlydian (talk · contribs) 18:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 05:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Will review this as part of trying out Wikipedia:Good article review circles. Review to follow within the next few days. —Kusma (talk) 05:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for picking this up and for your thorough review! Have started addressing some comments below, will pick back up soon. Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 15:13, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi again @Kusma, thank you again for your thoughtful comments, I really appreciate your level of engagement with this article. I have addressed (I think!) all of your comments - let me know if you'd like to discuss anything further :) Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 18:56, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@Kusma I think I've caught everything now. Sorry just one question - I'm not sure what wikivoice means in relation to your point about "the first person from the West to be ordained as a Tibetan novice monk (getsul) and the first to attend Rizong". Thanks in advance! Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 20:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I tend to sometimes be a bit cryptic in what I say. There is a little bit of info at WP:WIKIVOICE. Basically, we want to make sure opinions and uncertain statements are attributed to their authors, while clear facts are presented in Wikipedia's voice, short "wikivoice". The point in question technically is cited to a reliable source, so I won't insist on attributing it, but I find the sourcing used by Lau and Partridge to be rather weak. (Generally, I learned from many verifiable but wrong claims I have seen at Did you know that claims that "A was the first B to do C" are generally best sourced to research articles about C, not to publications focusing on A. I would probably not accept this source for a similar claim in a Did You Know hook about Dillon/Jivaka). Anyway, that is nothing to hold up promotion at this point. I will go and file the paperwork now. —Kusma (talk) 20:36, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Content and prose review

I will make more comments than strictly necessary by the GA criteria. Please push back against anything you do not wish to do, and certainly do push back against everything where I am wrong.

• Lead: will need to comment later.
• Early life: Mother's name seems to be Laura Maude (?) see also p. 3 and p. 42 of the book. (I do wonder whether it should really be omitted that he was named after his mother when he was christened; sources generally seem to mention his female name). The Dictionary of Irish Biography has "Laura Maud" though, and some detail on her being a widow and some of the crazy family background (Australian-German??)
  • Thanks for spotting - I've changed to Maude as per the source. Might be one of those names that is commonly spelled/misspelled throughout history! As for Dillon's birth name, I've been careful to follow MOS:GENDERID: If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Dillon wasn't notable under his deadname.
    • There seems to be Maud/Maude confusion all over the sources, so maybe this needs a footnote (I am not sure what is right). As to including the name: As far as I know, Dillon is dead (so the section you quote does not apply), and was mildly notable (as minor member of the British aristocracy and as captain of the women's rowing team) under his deadname, which is widely used in the reliable sources (even in the title of one of them).
      • I've added a note to say that DIB says "Maud" (and has a different spelling of McCliver. And fair point on Dillon's name - I have made a small addition to the prose.
        • OK. I would suggest to also put the DIB citation into that footnote (especially for the unobservant reader who doesn't notice this is the same as White & Evers).
• before he could be cashiered for those of us who don't know that "cashiered" is something bad, could this become "to avoid being cashiered"?
  • Changed.
• self-imposed economic hardship seems a bit exaggerated; they did have nannies after all.
  • Their worst self-imposed poverty came far later in life, so yes it's probably worth amending here. Have amended to "The children's aunts were strict with money despite their wealth".
• Brampton Down Girls' School mention it was in Folkestone?
  • Done.
• Later in his life, he claimed that as a child and teenager he never thought of himself as a girl. you could just cite that to the book instead of to a website that cites the book...
  • Citing the book would be citing a primary source (Dillon's autobiography), so thought it would be better to cite the secondary source which quotes the autobiography.
• Education at Oxford: decided to switch his course to Greats [..] after persuading the university that sounds weird. I would expect he first decided to switch, then persuaded the university to allow it, then actually switched.
  • Yes that's right, have amended.
• As captain and he achieved blues in 1935 and 1936 probably the "and" should go; could you explain what "achieving blues" means? It does not seem to be either music or depression ;)
  • Have changed and added a brief explanation of what a "blue" is!
• "He graduated in 1938 with a third" might be worth explaining to the non-Brits what a "third" is?
  • Have added the definition.
• Bristol: Should "Commandant" be uppercase?
  • Don't think so (just a remainder of the linking process). Have changed.
• Just to confirm: he volunteered, git rejected, then found out reasons why he would not have liked to be there?
  • He found out he wouldn't like to be there, then left. Have tried to make this clearer.
• After leaving the laboratory do we have a year for that?
  • Possibly 1939, but the source is not very clear.
• heavy bombing of Bristol link Bristol Blitz
  • Done.
• the book argues [..] and advocated I would use present tense both times.
  • Done.
• You could mention that the book was later published.
  • Done.
• Hypoglycaemia: do we know why?
  • Nothing I read mentioned the cause, and Dillon himself does not mention it in his autobiography.
• Footnote about cousin Maude Eileen Beauchamp should have a citation.
  • Done.
• Trinity College: Oxford tutor who changed the university records this almost sounds like falsifying. "It was due to the kindness and commonsense of my ex-tutor that my name was transferred to the books of Brasenose College where I had learned all my philosophy, and also that the Oxford University Registrar was persuaded to issue me an M.A. certificate with only my initials in place of my first names." is what Dillon says. Source cited has "With the help of a former tutor, Dillon was able to change his Oxford records to state that L. M. Dillon had attended the all-male Brasenose college, not St Anne’s." so it is not the tutor personally who did the change of records.
  • Thank you, have made a slight amendment to correct this.
• Roberta Cowell: Dillon's book Self brought him to the attention of Roberta Cowell so when was it published?
  • Added publication date.
• Is it worth noting that Cowell did not get divorced until 1952? (And does not mention Dillon in her book, if I skim-read correctly?)
  • Cowell's own divorce did not seem to intersect with the narrative on her relationship with Dillon in any of the sources I read - which might be a bit strange in retrospect! It is Dillon who does not mention Cowell in his autobiography. I believe Cowell mentions Dillon but not by name.

More later! —Kusma (talk) 21:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Medical career: Dillon’s entrenched imperialist and xenophobic views became more apparent this is the first time we hear of these views.
  • I've tried to make this a bit less jarring: Lau and Partridge write that whilst recalling his experiences in the Navy, Dillon revealed some of his entrenched imperialist and xenophobic views.
• Outing in the press: the section doesn't really describe the actual outing in the press.
  • I've added in: The news reports which followed revealed the story of Dillon's transition, which he had kept secret for fifteen years.
• Buddhism: When Dillon's ship travelled back to India, he stayed in the country and travelled to Kalimpong sounds like he stayed in the US instead of going to India?
  • I'm not sure what you're referring to here? The ship arrived at India and he decided to stay there.
• the monk found it difficult to teach Dillon and found him gullible the book says "naive and arrogant", which isn't quite the same
  • Have amended.
• he wanted to ordain as a novice monk shouldn't it be "be ordained"?
  • Amended.
• Jivaka’s interpreted the rule to mean that he should not necessarily be prohibited from ordaining something is wrong with this sentence grammatically. Also, the IDNB (White/Evers) says "Tibetan practitioners in Sarnath seemed more accommodating to his ‘third sex’ status, however, and his request for ordination seemed set to be granted." so this seems to be about a different school of Buddhists.
  • I've fixed the sentence. And yes, Jivaka found that Theravada tradition to be more hard-line, but the Tibetan tradition not so much.
• He decided he should let the monks make the final decision on whether Jivaka could be ordained, and they ultimately forbade Jivaka's ordination. hmm, the source is more equivocal, "Whatever Sangharakshita wrote to the monks — whether he truly left it up to them or whether he in fact argued against Dillon becoming a bhikkhu — his letter was enough to thwart the ordination"
  • Fair point - I have amended.
    • Is "reeading" a typo for "reading" or for "rereading"?
      • Reading - I've amended.
• José Ignacio Cabezón writes gloss him so we know why we should care about his opinion?
  • Have added that he is a professor of Tibetan Buddhism.
• The senior monk at Sarnath [..] suggested Jivaka could achieve full ordination so the other monks decided against what their senior monk said? Or are there Theravadans and Tibetans in different monasteries in Sarnath?
  • Different monasteries - I have clarified that Rinpoche was a Tibetan monk.
• the first person from the West to be ordained as a Tibetan novice monk (getsul) and the first to attend Rizong the sourcing for this isn't great, as Lau and Partridge just quote Jivaka for this. White/Evers have "one of the earliest Westerners to seek ordination into Tibetan Buddhism". Perhaps best to attribute this to Jivaka?
  • Thank you, I have attributed this to him. Jivaka even says he was the first foreigner!
    • It still seems to be in wikivoice?
      • Sorry I'm not sure what this means?
• He wished to return to Ladakh, but without wanting to reveal his gender transition, he struggled to secure entry. this is a bit confusingly written, and it is unclear why wanting to reveal his transition would have helped him enter Ladakh.
  • I've tried to make this clearer: He wished to return to Ladakh, but he struggled to secure entry in part due to being reticent to discuss his past.
• He wrote to the monk asking to be sent his incomplete autobiography, driven by a wish to write his life story in his own words. Whose autobiography? And whose life story did Jivaka want to write?
  • Hoping adding the word "own" clears things up here! He wrote to the monk asking to be sent the draft of his incomplete autobiography, driven by a wish to write his own life story in his own words.
• Death and legacy: The Hodgkinson and Kennedy biographies might be a good fit for this section?
  • Yes very true! Have added these.

More later! —Kusma (talk) 21:15, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• Self: A Study in Endocrinology and Ethics (1946): Many of the arguments in the book mirror those made by Harry Benjamin in his book The Transsexual Phenomenon (1966) source has "Although Dr. Harry Benjamin is generally credited with developing the “logic of treatment” for transsexual medical care in his 1966 book The Transsexual Phenomenon, Dillon actually got there first, a full two decades earlier." which doesn't seem to be the same as "mirroring"; Dillon predates Benjamin by 20 years but makes very similar arguments.
  • Good distinction, have addressed.
• Poetry: Gurdjieff: might be good to have a gloss here or at first mention
  • Amended.
• Imji Getsul: The book was published in Great Britain spring 1962 "in the spring of 1962". (And actually MOS:SEASON discourages this way of describing a time of year, but that is not in the part of MOS in WP:GA?).
  • Thank you for pointing this out, have amended.
• Other works: do we know whether these were by "Jivaka" or by "Dillon"?
  • I've added the relevant names throughout.

First pass done! A very interesting story, well told, some suggestions above (and some issues with faithfulness to sources). Lead to be discussed later. —Kusma (talk) 21:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• Good amendments, just a few small points remaining. —Kusma (talk) 22:03, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Source spotchecks

Numbering from special:permanentlink/1228907608.

• 1b: not sure I see "a passion he would retain throughout his life" in the sources. (And Partridge 2015 isn't a super great source; given that you have access to the secondary sources, best not to rely on tertiary sources where you can avoid it).
  • When Stryker lists Dillon's life, she includes that he "read widely in various religious and spiritual traditions, and eventually to take vows as a novitiate monk in a Buddhist monastery." I think this ok to imply that he was interested in religion throughout his life?
• 2c: none of this seems to be on p. 3, can you double check?
  • That's meant to be p.4, sorry! Have changed.
• 3e: ok (I'll assume you cite the tertiary source because it is more accessible than the secondary source).
• 4f: seems ok. I'm curious why you do not tell us more about Bill and about the two women Michael was in love with pre-transition.
  • I can add a bit more about that in the Oxford section. I do mention Bill, I don't think there's much more to say about him sadly.
• 4w: doesn't really say "while at Trinity"; while that is technically true, they met in London, not in Dublin, so it is a bit misleading.
  • Thank you, have clarified.
• 23: isn't this on p. 6?
  • Dillon's quote about being given testosterone for the first time is on p.5.
• 29: ok
• 56a: no mention of hypospadias that I can see
  • This is backed up by 57. I can duplicate the citation if required.
• 57: ok
• 81: ok. Best to archive this to be sure.
  • Thanks, will do!
• 90: ok

Mostly ok, some remarks (also in the general content review above).

General comments and GA criteria

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

• Prose see above
• No major MoS issues; lead to be discussed
• Nicely formatted references, good sources.
• Generally not too closely paraphrased, with the possible exception of the IDNB where Earwig picks up a few more phrases than necessary
• Couple of further source checks to follow (although I did quite a few in the review text above)
• Happy with coverage and level of detail.
• No recent edit wars; the naming issue has caused edit wars in the past but seems relatively quiet right now.
• Source link for the infobox image is dead; can you confirm that the image is from Hodgkinson's book?
  • Hodgkinson was the first major publication about Dillon and she includes this picture in the book. She claimed she had pictures of Dillon in her possession.
• Otherwise no image issues.
• Infobox image does not have ALT text (but that is optional).
• Source checks more or less a pass.
• No neutrality issues came up during checking.
• Actually I don't have any complaints about the lead section :) Putting on hold.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.