Talk:Middle Persian

Unwritten?

What happened to the Persian language during Parthian times? Was that Middle Persian too? Or the language went unwritten?Cpom 20:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

A section should be added to show the relationship with other Iranian langagues, especially the northwestern Iranian languages.--DFront21 21:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Parthian MP

As far as I know, very little of Parthian-era writing exists, but it's generally held that it was a Northwest Iranian language (as opposed to Southwest Iranian, which is the family of MP and its descendent NP). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasper Zanjani (talk • contribs) 16:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Origins

According to Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum, the transition between old persian and middle persian was already in progress by the start of the Achaemenid Dynasty and most probably the innovations in the language of the persian people in the early or at most mid-parthian era can be identified as those of the middle persian language. The evidence it mentions are the lexical errors as well as recurring patterns in use of some forms in the late achaemenid inscriptions which show that the language was no longer in use, because of the little understanding of the people of the already lost old persian. Besides, Darius himself calls the language "The language of ancestors" which means it was not even in use by, I don't know maybe 500 BC.حضرت محمود (talk) 09:17, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Hafiz Shirazi

Which Persian language has the doyen of Persian poetry, Khwajeh Shamsuddin Muhammad Hafiz Shirazi refered to in his couplet Morghan e bagh qafiyyeh sanjad wa bazleh gau! Ta khwajeh mai khurad be ghazal ha e Pahlawi? " The birds of the garden are composing rhyme and music (to create a right ambience) so that the Khwajeh (Hafiz Shirazi) may start his ghazals in Pahlawi while sipping his wine!" Was not the language of Hafiz, Farsi e Pahlavi? Lutfullah (talk) 07:22, 19 July 2011 (UTC)Lutfullah

Pahlavi, in the accepted terminology, is pre-Islamic Middle Persian used as a religious language, in Islamic times, by Zoroastrians. But the term may have been used differently at some point.

"Lost their case inflections"

Of course, Middle Persian lost many case inflections. But, to my knowledge, it still had a two-way case system. The direct case had no ending in both singular and plural, while the oblique case had no ending in the singular and -ân in the plural. A few words like brâd (brother) had the following declension: Direct sg. brâd, Oblique sg. and Direct pl. brâdar, Oblique pl. brâdarân. And the personal pronoun of the 1. person sg. was also inflected, man was the oblique case, I've forgotten what the direct case was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.206.145.1 (talk) 14:34, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Middle Persian? For sure it is baseless.

Hey guys, I don't know who invented this definition, but for sure it is an absurd definition and misrepresenting of the facts. The title must be '''Pahlavi Language''', not as "Middle Persian". Today there a lot of Pahlavi Language dictionaries all-around the World and none of them defines the term "Pahlavi" as "Persian". In fact, they were already using the term "Persian" as "Pārsīg". I can give you David Neil MacKenzie's "A Concise Pahlavi Dictionary" work as an example, who was a scholar of Iranian languages ( https://www.avetruthbooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/d.-n.-mackenzie.-a-concise-pahlavi-dictionary-1986.pdf )[Page 87 i.e 65]. As it is obviously seen in this dictionary that the Pahlavi people were already using the term ""Pārsīg" for "Persian". And, for Pahlawi Language the term "Pahlawig = Pahlavi" [page. 64]. So it a nonsense title, please let's be loyal to the facts and change the title as "Pahlavi Language" only. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.70.245.165 (talk) 22:55, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Moved from article

Other sample texts

I'm not sure what these particular excerpts add, they seem superfluous and random to me, and the page is already very long now that I've added sections on phonology and grammar as well as samples from other MP varieties. I'm moving them to the talk page. Frankly, I would do the same with the poem, the popular comparisons with New Persian, the cognate list etc., but I don't want to rock the boat excessively, so I'm leaving it to others to decide.--Anonymous44 (talk) 07:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Šābuhr šāhān šāh ī hormizdān hamāg kišwarīgān pad paykārišn yazdān āhang kard ud hamāg gōwišn ō uskār ud wizōyišn āwurd pas az bōxtan ī ādūrbād pad gōwišn ī passāxt abāg hamāg ōyšān jud-sardagān ud nask-ōšmurdān-iz ī jud-ristagān ēn-iz guft kū nūn ka-mān dēn pad stī dēn dīd kas-iz ag-dēnīh bē nē hilēm wēš abar tuxšāg tuxšēm ud ham gōnag kard.

Shapur, the king of kings, son of Hormizd, induced all countrymen to orient themselves to god by disputation, and put forth all oral traditions for consideration and examination. After the triumph of Ādurbād, through his declaration put to trial by ordeal (in disputation) with all those sectaries and heretics who recognized (studied) the Nasks, he made the following statement: ‘Now that we have gained an insight into the Religion in the worldly existence, we shall not tolerate anyone of false religion, and we shall be more zealous.

Andar xwadāyīh šābuhr ī ohrmazdān tāzīgān mad hēnd ušān xōrīg ī rudbār grift was sāl pad xwār tāzišn dāšt t šābuhr ō xwadāyīh mad oyšān tāzīgān spōxt ud šahr aziš stād ud was šāh tāzīgān ābaxšēnēd ud was maragīh.

During the rulership of Shapur, the son of Hormizd, the Arabs came; they took Xorig Rūdbār; for many years with contempt (they) rushed until Shapur came to rulership; he destroyed the Arabs and took the land and destroyed many Arab rulers and pulled out many number of shoulders.

The original Manichaean Middle Persian sample text that I had included

This was the first example of Manichaean MP that I included, but I replaced it because I thought it could be perceived as a bit unseemly and raunchy. But it has got some great examples of the ergative agreement pattern and is a very cool text in its own way, so I don't have the heart not to keep it on the talk page at least.--Anonymous44 (talk) 08:21, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

A sample of Manichaean Middle Persian: excerpt from the Shābuhragān

Transliteration	Transcription	Translation
՚wd c՚wn h՚՚n ՚wzm՚hwr ՚wd wՙyrwr ՚՚z ՚c ՚sm՚n ՚br zmyg ՚w hwšk ՚wd xwyd qft,	ud če՚ōn hān awezmāhwar ud wīrwar āz az āsmān abar zamīg ō hušk ud xwēd kaft,	And as that lustful and *man-bearing Âz fell from heaven onto the earth, on dry and wet land,
՚wš pd wyspzng z՚z ՚wd mzn ՙy xwyš gryw hmbwd.	ō-š pad wispzanag zāz ud mazan ī xwēš grīw hambūd{?}.	she was united with all kinds of weeds and monsters from her own self.
ps ՚wyš՚n dyw՚n ՚wd pryg՚n, xyšm՚n, mzn՚n ՚wd ՚sryšt՚r՚n ՙy m՚yg ՚n՚nd	pas awišān dēwān ud parīgān, xēšmān, mazanān ud *asrēštārān ī māyag anand,	Then the demons and the witches, raging devils, monsters and *arch-demons which were female,
dwp՚y ՚wd tsb՚y ՚wd prwr ՚wd zhryn ՚wd prystrdys,	dōpāy ud tasbāy ud parrwar ud zahrēn ud frestardēs,	bipeds and quadrupeds, winged and poisonous and reptile-shaped,
hrw ky ՚c ՚hy ՚c dwšwx ՚bwws ՚n՚nd ՚wd ps ՚ndr y՚zdẖ ՚sm՚n bst bwd hynd	harw kē az ahy az dušox ābus anand ud pas andar yāzdah āsmān bast būd hēnd,	all those who were pregnant from hell in the beginning and then had been bound in the eleven heavens,
՚wš՚n h՚n b՚m ՚wd ՚gr՚yy ՙy rwšnšhr-yzd dyd	u-šān hān bām ud agrāyīh ī rōšnšahr-yazd dīd,	saw the brilliance and splendour of the god Realm-of-Light,
՚wš՚n ՚wyš rwzdyst, ՚wd ՚by՚wš bwd hynd	u-šān awiš ruzdist, ud abēyuš būd hēnd.	and they lusted for him and lost their minds (or: became unconscious).
՚ygyš՚n h՚n xwyš zhg ՚cyš nsyẖ bwd hynd	ēg-išān hān xwēš zahag aziš *nasīh būd hēnd	Then their own offspring were *aborted from them
՚wd prwwd ՚w zmyg ՚md hynd, ՚wd nwyst hynd ՚br zmyg xyz՚n.	ud frōd ō zamīg āmad hēnd, ud niwist hēnd abar zamīg xezān.	and came down to the earth and began crawling upon the earth.
՚wš՚n b՚r ՚wd myw ՚c drxt՚՚n xwrd	u-šān bār ud mēw az draxtān xward	And they ate food and fruit from the trees
՚wd mhy ՚wd mzn ՚wd ՚sryšt՚r bwd ẖynd.	ud mahy ud mazan ud *asrēštār būd hēnd.	and became bigger and (turned into) monsters and Arch-demons.
՚wd ՚c b՚r ՚wd myw ՙyg drxt՚n h՚nyš՚n ՚՚z ՚br ՚dyd	ud az bār ud mēw īg draxtān hān-išān āz abar adīd	And from the food and fruit of the trees that Âz came into them,
՚wd pd ՚wrzwg ՚՚ywwz bwd hynd, ՚wd ՚gnyn hngpt ẖynd	ud pad āwarzōg āyōz būd hēnd, ud āginēn hangaft hēnd.	and they were agitated by lust and copulated together.

References

The title must be "Pahlawî" not "Middle Persian".

The founder of Sasanian Empire Ardashir I, denied to be called as Persian. Even their language and morphology much more closer to Kurmanji than to Persian. They did use the letter "w" as it extinct in Persian language. Stop Persian racism.Ebulfîda (talk) 11:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)