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Talk:Miriam Makeba/Archive 2

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Archive 1Archive 2

Suggestion for Earlier Picture

I was thinking that since Miriam Makeba is dead, often Wikipedia has an older main picture of that person, so in other words when that person was younger. Of course there are exceptions like for example Mother Teresa who was more relevant in her older years. But I think in this case Miriam Makeba achieved considerable fame in the 1960s, so it would be nice if the main picture was from around that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.201.50 (talk) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Miriam Makeba/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Midnightblueowl (talk · contribs) 18:47, 28 May 2017 (UTC)


I'll field this one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:47, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

A lot of great work has clearly gone into this article. I'm mostly concerned with minor prose issues, of which there are a fair few. Feel free to argue with me on any of them if you disagree! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

On the lede

  • I like shorter, punchier opening paragraphs, but I think that having an opening paragraph consisting only of a single sentence might be a little too brief. Maybe add a second sentence describing the musical genre(s) that Makeba operated in, etc. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I've given this a shot
  • We mention the (US) civil rights activism in the opening sentence, but not the anti-apartheid activities that she was involved in. Perhaps we could go for a separate sentence "An activist involved in the African-American civil rights and anti-apartheid movements, she reflected these sentiments in her work". How would that work? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:21, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Actually that's just an incorrect link on my part. When the sources say "civil rights activist" they refer to the global movement, so I've changed the link to Civil rights movements.
  • Done
  • That's a good point, and one I usually pay attention to. I do wish, though, that other folks would apply this to white historical figures as well...
  • Very true; but I don't think that we will see a shift in that direction any time soon. Although it is a pervasive issue when covering white figures it is probably true of coverage of all individuals who are from the dominant majority ethnicity of their nation-state (for instance, Han Chinese individuals from China itself are rarely referred to as such; there is the assumption that because they are Chinese then they will be Han). Obviously in most of Southern Africa there are no dominant majorities, but in most Western (and indeed many Asian) countries, there are, which affects the coverage of individuals from those areas. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:22, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I tried it, but when I read it I didn't like it. I feel like just "cancer" would be fine if we were talking about her whole life, but we're talking of a specific year here, and it just seems a little odd to say "survived cancer in 1950".
  • You're right. fixed.
  • done
  • I would agree. This was a later addition, it's not my prose.
  • I tend to put commas where I can, but okay :)
  • "She continued to perform, mostly in African countries, including at several celebrations of independence, and began to write and perform more explicitly political music critical of the apartheid regime, such as Soweto Blues, written in 1977 about the Soweto Uprising by her former husband Hugh Masekela." This is pretty lengthy. How about trimming it in two. Maybe "She continued to perform, mostly in African countries, including at several celebrations of independence. She also began to write and perform more explicitly political music critical of the apartheid regime, such as Soweto Blues, written in 1977 about the Soweto Uprising by her former husband Hugh Masekela." Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:57, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • done
  • yes. done.
  • I'd disagree here. The fact is she is very well known for political music, particularly related to apartheid. But in most cases it's difficult to give that context to her songs in the lede; this is the one example that is prominent enough by itself to do that, so I thought it worthwhile.
  • I'm not convinced by the structure of that fourth paragraph. Half of it deals with her final years and half with her legacy. I would take the stuff on her life and merge it into the third paragraph, trimming any prose as necessary. Then I would leave the fourth and final paragraph purely to a discussion of her legacy. That way the paragraph structure is a little neater and cleaner. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:58, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Again, not certain I agree; the collapse of apartheid, and her return to south africa, are very clear markers in her life.

Childhood and family

  • "was born in Johannesburg on 4 March 1932, in the township of Prospect" - I think that we could rearrange this so that it runs more smoothly. How about "was born in the Johannesburg township of Prospect on 4 March 1932"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:02, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Rephrased
  • "Her mother Christina Makeba was a Swazi traditional South African healer" - "Her Swazi mother, Christina Makeba, was a traditional South African healer". Adding those commas and moving "Swazi" improves the sentence structure quite a bit, IMO. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I've changed this to "Swazi traditional healer", piping the link, because the source gave the impression that the "traditional" was associated with "Swazi" rather than "South Africa"
  • We bring in Stokely Carmichael at a very early juncture here and I worry a little about the reader being thrown around chronologically. Perhaps this section would be better were we to mention "Makeba later said..." without specifying that Carmichael was the source of that information? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Again, not my prose :) Done
  • Since it was mine, I'll just say here that I wasn't too happy with it either (it was sort of a rushed job) ... I mentioned Carmichael there out of an abundance of caution about using primary sources. I approve of the current arrangement. Graham87 07:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
  • "spent her first six months of life in jail" - was she in jail or in prison? The two words are often used synonymously although they also carry different associations in some countries. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:10, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I think the sources too use the terms interchangeably in this case
  • done
  • done
  • Afraid not. I've noticed that specific protestant denominations seem to receive less attention outside the west. I'll look, though
  • done
  • done

Early career

  • "Makeba began her professional musical career with the Cuban Brothers," Given that we lack an article on the Cuban Brothers, I would be explicit that they were a band (and if possible state the genre that they worked in). Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • added, and I've said "South Africa band" because there seems to have been a Scottish band of the same name.
  • done
  • replaced one with "pieces"
  • done
  • Good point. I've made it "Rhodesian-born" as there's some doubt over her citizenship
  • done
  • done, and I managed to find the link this time.
  • done
  • done
  • done
  • done
  • Hah yes.
  • "managed to organise" - "organised"?
  • done
  • done: I prefer the former, but I can switch if you like
  • Changed "gave" to "brought" but I prefer "recognition", which conveys the sense of the source (single moment of recognition, rather than longlasting reputation, at least at that time) better in my view.
  • done
  • done
  • done

Exile

  • I would rearrange the quotebox and image somewhat. For instance I would move the image to the left and ensure that the quotebox is positioned after the "United States" sub-section rather than just after the "Exile" section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • It seems to me that the quote makes more sense before the picture. So I've moved the picture.
  • "outside South Africa, she learned that her mother had died. When she tried to return to South Africa for the funeral, she found that her South African passport" - "South Africa... South Africa... South African". Bit repetitive. Maybe replace the middle example with "home" or something. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • replaced one
  • reworded.
  • Shuffled a little: is this better?
  • "the apartheid government" - apartheid was more of a policy rather than an accurate description of the government itself. Maybe "white-minority government" or "National Party government" or something like that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Gone with "apartheid and the white minority government"
  • switched.
  • split.
  • done
  • split
  • done: in this case it's the former.
  • Struck harry :)
  • "asking for economic sanctions against Pretoria" - this could be interpreted as meaning that she was calling for sanctions against a particular city, rather than as against the SA government. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • I suppose. Changed.
  • done
  • Shifted the link
  • Well, I imagine it means with a musical backing that was culturally appropriate: however, that particular prose is not mine, and the source is impossible to find: I tried quite hard.
  • What I could do is to remove that frament, and replace it with something like "her use of Sotho, Xhosa, and Swahili lyrics led to her being perceived as a representation of an "authentic" Africa by American audiences." which is what Sizemore Barber, used for the rest of the sentence, says. Vanamonde (talk) 06:59, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
  • done.

Guinea

  • done
  • "Her marriage to Trinidad-born civil rights activist and Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee leader Stokely Carmichael". Carmichael has already been introduced, so scrap all this additional detail here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • We haven't mentioned those details before, though...
  • I'm not really sure that they are worth mentioning. I mean, we have a whole article dedicated to Stokely Carmichael if readers want to learn more. Alternately, this additional information could be incorporated into the prose at the first mention of Mr Carmichael. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:17, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
  • "and placed hidden microphones in her apartment,[32]and the" - deal with the bunching of the citation and the "and". Also "and... and" is a bit repetitive. Restructure. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • done
  • done
  • done
  • done
  • It's a funny acronym: I think it comes from FESTival of Arts and Culture, but nobody quite explains it like that, and the full name is "Second World Black and African Festival of Arts and Culture" which is unwieldy. I've linked the term, which I should have done before.
  • done
  • done
  • done
  • done
  • done
  • Tom Cheyney, in the musical magazine "Musician". He was reviewing Welela in 1990, but says this about this song. I've added some of this: the specific reviewers name seemed less important than the publication.
  • "In 1978 Makeba divorced Carmichael and married Bageot Bah, an airline executive, in 1980" - perhaps "In 1978, Makeba divorced Carmichael and in 1980 she then married Bageot Bah, an airline executive", or something of that nature. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Tweaked.

Brussels

  • "Her daughter Bongi died in childbirth in 1985, after which Makeba decided" - perhaps better as "After her daughter Bongi died during childbirth in 1985, Makeba decided..." Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • done
  • " documented on music video" - what is meant by "music video" here; perhaps we could get a link? 19:49, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Not my prose, not sure what it means, and I doubt it adds anything, as video recording is quite routine. Removed.
  • There is an inconsistent italicisation of "Graceland". When referencing the album itself, italics are required. When mentioning the tour, maybe not. Currently we have Graceland Tour but I would suggest "Graceland tour" as the appropriate formatting. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • done
  • "who was a "sangoma" ("a healer")." - the term sangoma has already been introduced earlier in the article, when it was italicised. Maybe just "who was a sangoma". No need for the repetition of "a healer". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • done
  • Afraid not. It's an article that needs writing. We have "academic boycott" and "foreign relations of South Africa" but the latter doesn't even have a section.
  • done
  • "including German, French, Dutch, Italian and Spanish." - Definitely need a citation at the end of this sentence as it seems unrelated to the following (referenced) sentence. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Hmm, my apologies, that was a piece of information from a dodgy website which I removed: should have removed the text too.
  • done
  • done

Return to South Africa

  • done
  • done
  • "combined jazz, R&B, pop, and African music, and was a hit in Africa" - link any genres not previously appearing in the article, and maybe change "African music" to something more specific; "traditional African music", "several African genres" etc? Also, "hit in Africa" might work better as "hit across Africa"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • done
  • done
  • done
  • NYT review: named the newspaper.

Musical styles and themes

  • It's the citation at the end of the next sentence.
  • I though that it might be, but the two sentences seem rather thematically unrelated. In cases like this, I would definitely duplicate the reference to avoid confusion. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:12, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Done
  • Is this necessary? They won't be known outside their field, and their names are in the shortened footnote.
  • Source says South African women, gone with that.

Death and legacy

  • I would definitely carve this section up. The first paragraph, discussing her death, would sit far more comfortably at the end of the "Return to South Africa" section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Moved.
  • done
  • done
  • "the cruelty of apartheid" - I'm not seriously claiming that apartheid wasn't cruel, but I think that this sort of language may carry unnecessary baggage that Wikipedia should avoid. 20:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Perhaps you're right. Here's the quote: "When they exiled Makeba, white South African authorities created a more effective symbol of apartheid’s cruelty than she could have done herself." From Feldstein (2013). What would you suggest? Vanamonde (talk) 08:04, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Awards and recognition

  • I would definitely avoid having a list of bullet points, which may contravene WP:Trivia. Perhaps consider merging the information here into a couple of paragraphs that could be added to the legacy section (perhaps renamed "Reception and legacy"?) Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Honestly, MBO, I disagree. This is an acceptable use of an embedded list (WP:EMBED). The awards listed here are all backed by secondary sources: they are not taken straight from websites of those awards. They are also quite disparate. A prose section will not read well in my view. Vanamonde (talk) 08:00, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Other prose issues

  • Our article on the Western world capitalizes, so I have gone with that.
  • Per a convention suggested to me by Simon Burchell, I've gone with "United States" at the first mention in each section, and US thereafter.

Images

  • It would be nice to get some images for the early sections, if possible. I appreciate that there may not be free images of Makeba herself, but perhaps we could find some images of some of the places where she grew up or associated with? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • For instance, this picture of Belafonte (File:Harry Belafonte singing 1954.jpg) or this of Mandela (File:Young Mandela.jpg). Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I've added one picture of her in Israel. I'm wondering if we could use a fair-use image of her album covers, but I'm not sure if the criteria cover it; what do you think? If that doesn't work, I think I'll add a Belafonte image. Also trying to find something for the last two sections. Any ideas?
  • I'm wondering if a collage of the other musicians credited with popularizing world music along with Makeba would be useful here, but I'm also ignorant of how to manufacture collages. I will give it a shot. Vanamonde (talk) 08:08, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi @Vanamonde93:; if you have a chance to look into the "cruelty" quote, then that would be great and I think that I would move along and pass this as a GA. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:56, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

All in all, this has been some really good work, @Vanamonde93:. Congratulations on getting the article up to this standard. I am content that it meets all of the GA-criteria, being a well balanced and properly sourced overview of the subject matter. I am happy to pass this as a Good Article! Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:37, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Sources

@Midnightblueowl: I've been looking over the source material here as a starting point to polishing this, and I find that there are two significant sources I have incomplete access to; the Bordowitz and Schwartz-Bart sources. Can you help with those? I've found some books and journal sources that I will add over the next couple of days, but these two do seem to be important. @Graham87: Since you're a major contributor here; MBO and I are planning to take this to FAC in the near future; as a major contributor, any input you have would be useful, and your copyedits are, of course, welcomed. Vanamonde (talk) 04:05, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

  • I have since been able to get hold of Bordowitz; and I have found that the title was actually rather misleading. It is a four page piece, by Makeba herself; the only secondary information comes from an "about the author" section somewhere in the back. So not the best source, and I have been trying to replace it. I think the issue we are going to have to deal with for Makeba is that there are fewer sources focused solely on her (the exception are her numerous obituaries, some of which are scholarly, like the Allen source) and so a lot of the supplementary detail is going to have to come from scholarly sources that examine some aspect of her career (like [1]) and/or from the obituaries themselves. Are there any major sources you think we're missing at the moment? Vanamonde (talk) 10:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Some thoughts:

@Vanamonde93:; do you have any great objection to the reformatting of the "Bibliography" section? There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it by Wikipedia policy, but I'm planning on expanding it and really think that we could use a cleaner, more aesthetically pleasing layout. I have my own favoured system (which I used over at Nelson Mandela and Steve Biko) but I'm not saying that we must use that system; if you really like the bullet points, I don't mind retaining them, but I think that a three column division will be much more accessible than the current four column one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:44, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Oh good lord, is it really four columns on your screen? I switched from 30em to 24 because 30 was giving me just one column, but then my machine is really quite small...which also explains my slew of typos, btw. Thanks for cleaning those up. I am rather fond of bullet points, but feel free to tweak the column size. I do think, though, that the columns size should be consistent across the subsections. Vanamonde (talk) 04:32, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
  • @Midnightblueowl: Thanks for the ce. I'm not completely convinced about publication location, though. It seems to me we should not assume a Western knowledge base; ie either we provide country information for all sources or no sources, not just non-US sources. Thoughts? Vanamonde (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Oh, I totally agree. Despite the impression that my edit summary must have given, I was not trying to single out New York itself - I removed country names from all such sources in that list (at least I think I did). Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:00, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
  • @Vanamonde93: Thanks for the ping. I can't think of anything that needs to be done at this point for a FAC nom, for what it's worth, but I'm not that experienced with the modern FAC system. Primarily for that reason, I don't wish to co-nominate the page ... you've pretty much done 90% of the work here! Graham87 13:58, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Sure, I've done a lot of the recent stuff, but you've done a lot of work on this over the years, and you also cleaned up a lot of my untidiness. In any case, you are always welcome to comment, but no pressure! Vanamonde (talk) 16:32, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

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TFAR

Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Miriam Makeba --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

"text questions"

@Piledhigheranddeeper: The answers to your questions are "no" and "no"; I don't see how that was in doubt, though. Vanamonde (talk) 15:54, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Pata Pata

Interesting ref from the "Pata Pata" article, which means we might need to change a few things here:

  • Allingham, Rob (2009). "FROM "NOMA KUMNYAMA" TO "PATA PATA": A HISTORY". African Music. 8 (3): 117–131. doi:10.21504/amj.v8i3.1831. JSTOR 20788931.

I have access to that ref, but I can't get to the Ravell-Pinto refernce on the Miriam Makeba page, which mentions that a disagreement happened between Makeba and Belafonte during the recording of "Pata Pata" (which seems rather unlikely in light of the Allingham ref). @Vanamonde93:, could you help out here? I probably won't be able to do more on this tonight (my time). Graham87 13:37, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

On it, but I'm a bit busy at the moment, it might take me a day or so. Vanamonde (talk) 14:32, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Were's Sivuca?

Please, sorry my bad English... So... After 1964, her musical director (and musician in tours) does Sivuca. This article forgot him! References:

  1. L.A. Times
  2. Folha de S.Paulo (in portuguese)

André Koehne (talk) 10:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Bessie Head

Given that a scholarly source mentioned this incident, it's quite possibly worth including, but I'm uncomfortable with the way in which it's currently mentioned. It doesn't have a coherent link to the content before or after it, nor does it make it clear that Makeba's prejudice was about Head being too white, not too black (which is a reasonable interpretation). Vanamonde (Talk) 23:26, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah as you can tell from my edit summaries, I was also a bit dubious about this new paragraph. There's also another possible piece of context: in the Google Books excerpt I can see it talks about Makeba's first husband being coloured and how his family allegedly treated her. Of course, we can't use that book directly as a source for all that. There's also the matter of the fact we're only hearing one side of the story ... perhaps Makeba responded to Head's allegations somewhere. Due to Wikipedia's extreme prominence and the very surprising nature of the allegations, I now think it's better to not have them in at all than to have them in there with the wrong or no context. Therefore despite me being up most of last night chasing these allegations down, I've gone and removed them. Graham87 04:24, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, much appreciated. I haven't had the time I would want to do any digging. In the absence of further detail, I think this is best kept out at the moment. Even if we are discussing this as prejudice on Makeba's part, we need to know if it was disdain for people with white heritage; prejudice against coloured people specifically; or something else, and at the moment, we don't have that. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:01, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Black Panther leader Stokely Carmichael

I don't recall Carmichael being a Black Panther, much less a leader. He was, I believe, a member of the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) until he embraced violent revolution. Curious Chicano (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

He was affiliated with the Black Panther party, including in leadership positions, for a period between his work with the SNCC and his move to Guinea. Our article about him has the details. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:27, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Oxford Research Encyclopedia of African History article

While trying to make clarifications in response to this edit, I discovered that there's a very comprehensive and apparently recent article about Makeba in the online Oxford Research Encyclopedia of African History.[1] It's available to anyone who can access The Wikipedia Library using the Oxford Research Encyclopedias page. I used it to straighten out her childhood but there's probably more that can be done with it if I or someone else feels inclined. In particular, I don't know if the car accident she went through as a passenger (in which she was physically unharmed) needs a mention; this is the first source I've had access to that describes it comprehensively. There might be other things from her adult life that could be added at some point, both at this article and that of her daughter Bongi. I removed the bit from this page about her saying she was shy, as I couldn't find a way to make it flow well with the rewritten text; the cited ref (the Economist obituary) just mentioned that she said this to an unnamed reporter and didn't really give a timeframe. I hope I haven't messed anything up ... feel free to make any further corrections necessary. Graham87 13:10, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

A very useful article, thanks for pointing me to it. I was pleased to see at least a few instances where I read a detail, came here to add it, and found we already had; but there's also a decent amount of detail we could use. It's also a comprehensive source review, as best as I can tell, and I'm going to look up at least a couple of sources it lists. Please feel free to tweak anything I've added thus far. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:47, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
A fair point [3], Graham...I suspect on review it's better to have the loc parameter, but I was lazy yesterday. I can work through adding them later. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:45, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
No worries; I got them all, I think. I was wondering why the footnote numbers in the recent text were so high even though the ref was already used. I was using copy and paste to make the references when I made my recent edits. Graham87 04:30, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Jolaosho, Omotayo (29 October 2021). "Miriam Makeba". In Spear, Thomas T. (ed.). Oxford Research Encyclopedia of African History. Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/acrefore/9780190277734.013.774. ISBN 978-0-19-027773-4.

Pronunciation

Why is her last name pronounced like its an English name? What is mə-KAY-bə? They even capitalised "KAY." This is a Featured Article and it must be accurate. There's definitely no hard "K" in Makeba and most of South African names. I am gonna remove the IPA for the time being until consensus is reached. dxneo (talk) 19:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

On this video, South African musical group, Bongo Muffin, pronounced "Makeba" at 49:24 – 49:40. Please listen. dxneo (talk) 19:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Associated acts

Hello Vanamonde93, I'm sorry for using the wrong words, but I do not think that parameter is relevant anymore. I may not be able to locate the discussion, but looking at {{infobox musical artist}}, the parameter is now removed from the instructions as now there this hidden category (Category:Pages using infobox musical artist with associated acts) solely created for tracking such pages. I might be wrong about this, but I truly think that parameter is not supposed to be there as it's not even displaying anymore. dxneo (talk) 01:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Dxneo: Thank you for explaining. I see the ever-wise Graham87 made some tweaks that seem to have fixed the issue. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
(EC) *blush* re first message: Indeed; the parameter was removed in this discussion, which I've just linked from the category. I've just changed Makeba's article per the instructions at the category page. Graham87 (talk) 03:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Single-sentence paragraphs

@Prairieplant:, can you please explain why you keep creating one-sentence paragraphs out of a single coherent paragraph? Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

This article runs on, mixing topics in paragraphs, and it is difficult to follow chronologically. I have no problem with a single sentence paragraph when it addresses one topic. I can make them into two sentence paragraphs. Now I am serking an accurate list of her marriages for the info box person. - - Prairieplant (talk) 19:21, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
I disagree; this is breaking up related material. As the article has been reviewed at WP:FAC, with considerably attention to prose, please discuss substantive changes here, especially if they've been reverted once already. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Prairieplant, can you please discuss your changes here? You've now added a whole section with material that's entirely redundant to the rest of the article, and sourced to a website of questionable reliability. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Well, this is a Featured Article and unreliable sources won't be tolerated no matter what. Rather replace them or remove them along with that section. Not sure if I'm missing something, but I don't understand why such crucial information is only on quick facts and not adequately cited in the body of the article. Although parts of that section can be merged somewhere into the early years section. dxneo (talk) 21:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
What information do you believe is crucial and yet is uncited, in the version that existed before prairie plant's edits [4]? Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Okay, I'm confused. Now that I've checked, Prairieplant, any reason why you have added that new section?
Vanamonde93, is there anything wrong with the quick facts? dxneo (talk) 22:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
I think it's a little unnecessary to cover her marriages in the infobox; she's primarily known as a musician, and to avoid bloat I think that's what the infobox should focus on. Also, there's some fudging of details; we don't know the date of the end (?) of her marriage to Bah; Pillai's name is rendered variously; the marriage to Pillai lasted less than a year. If everyone else is in favor of covering it, though, I can live with it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Yeah I'm not a fan of the recent edits either; I've reverted back to the edit at 18:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC). Graham87 (talk) 01:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
I found it unusual that the article did not follow the usual structure of Early life, Career, Personal life, Death and other sections as needed for each person. That is why I added the Personal life section. She had ties to the men she married. She moved to Guinea upon marrying Carmichael, as the US threw them out, making her statelessvafter South Africa had already withdrawn her passport. She kept friendly with Hugo Masekela years after their marriage, as he was a major musician. It is good to know she was married to the father of her child, but he pulled away when she had cancer, left them.
The articles on Harry Belafonte and Paul Simon, two of her musical colleagues, have Personal life section and spouses listed in the infobox. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart has his wife named in the infobox. Ella Fitzgerald has her spouses in the infobox and a Personal life section.
I do not appreciate that all my work was reverted without your questions being discussed first, and without you all looking at the articles about famous singers and musicians, her colleagues, to learn the structure for the article.
I think it should be put back. I read several biographies of her to get the facts straight, and all but one of those bios mentioned her 5 marriages. They also mentioned her bout with cancer and hysterectomy, so she had one child only. These are all parts of her life, and tied in with her music. She performed with her daughter, a singer in her own right.
Having her personal life squashed in with her career was confusing to me to read, Some of the personal aspects could be moved out of the Career sections, placed in Personal life, so the latter is not only her marriages. Those were the follow on edits I was expecting.
Listing her spouses in the infobox makes it easy to mark stages in her life. The infobox contains highlights of the article, like the lead, and there must be a section to back it up.
Musicians are people. I do not understand why you want to deprive her of her rich personal life, and all the places she lived, in addition to her performances.
I want to put my work back in place, have the usual structure for the article of a major and influential singer. - - Prairieplant (talk) 21:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Graham87, a featured article can be changed. It is not carved in stone. - - Prairieplant (talk) 21:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
We know, the thing is your source(s) was unreliable and that cannot be tolerated. The information you provided is already spread throughout the article (chronologically). The information was also incomplete as some of the marriage dates were not listed. However, I do think that her spouses should be listed in the infobox as it is really crucial information. dxneo (talk) 23:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
There is also no need for an article to follow a fixed structure. Makeba's musical career was closely intertwined with her personal life; her marriages to Masekela and Carmichael, in particular, had huge impacts on her career. Separating them out makes no sense. It also doesn't make any sense to duplicate the material in a new section with a worse source. This article has been through considerable peer review and discussion: you really are obliged to get consensus before making major changes. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
dxneo The source I used is not unreliable. It has sources behind it, footnotes, and was posted to a college English professor’s page as part of college course work. The professor is real, teaching at yet another college. The source I used includes the sources I suspect you approve. I did not consider using that source until I had researched it. I wonder, did you read the material at that source? - - Prairieplant (talk) 22:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Prairieplant, there's a reason why the CiteHighlighter script has red flagged the source. At this point, it's content wouldn't matter on FA. dxneo (talk) 01:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
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